From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CDC23CB41; Tue, 28 Mar 2023 18:18:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2e.google.com with SMTP id p203so17040692ybb.13; Tue, 28 Mar 2023 15:18:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1680041935; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=5dnr/RsBb7r0y2mhnjuo+hxn4hq4j/G1BZnffrUVVoU=; b=px3Eao2z+CyugSiPaCouJPWiDSaQjmZGvzTZiS1jgLdujh64pEf9GnhrsLcIr1Tc7+ QGi+K37yVsJJ29pI84MBFJb9S/iELtAP90xeTyPDAhFidzmCowrJVIODe9aioOkM7vYJ ni5RKf3jacS1HD2nOFabeVEjA982VnsuTl8+0GYnqCyKLHVVGGkQ/iAeiUFQIb2/ni/J lZIWFzR9hCTqH0bpw9/RtX+3Oei83tQ9lOHjDzn5yjCxOVtimWHDi6eASaNOwyqqxZnq yYff4DNd48KWHGPmYGyTxdkPVo+/qmqWRnKZyvbBvpLmS7jj5TqeVEPmHjCEPXjdmXBN QTtQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1680041935; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=5dnr/RsBb7r0y2mhnjuo+hxn4hq4j/G1BZnffrUVVoU=; b=mSfsxv7qxG8MAC+mRom8Npk4ElxokGemgHE8cSBbS//gGI57eMY9+yts9S23ZKskeH +9PDzXt+F4y29sUD3i5NSFpBVHkux8MSI9JoJaxT+i3d5FrAPSAHXWmb9Mw2UAQr08JF tm8e/YD3oniLLUAdBr0jwYJfm6a2qRDRa5y28zVst2s85i51uf7KdOmBSIOiLvV4yXT/ oV6LIqWJFqav2ZoZbfvZFqiSFshrQS+yBcbnb8TJ7I6Uz1sszpwCajbxenAZNeX6V121 J/mSkywg6A63wLeZ5f4NkR5cUDwiqzVkxu0BoUcnucakw3ThlaCNLJYPnOKABG9QIAG/ oEDw== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9dUvCRB0NotKX4i8ubRXBIm6gkEPfqhfCI6mLvJptUSpbqQViyy A/Ft3mb97fy1a6JYfXV8Ysw05Rs2OsuQVcasmMM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350aBhYyV8xUkgKDLCvzwxmWxEhBGvAIg9014xmEYWDvbXnQkwKZtWvfrPXihpTc0LHSoyC3kqCBVMd+W3SDIdK0= X-Received: by 2002:a25:2749:0:b0:a99:de9d:d504 with SMTP id n70-20020a252749000000b00a99de9dd504mr11075549ybn.12.1680041935244; Tue, 28 Mar 2023 15:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1064022179695 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 28 Mar 2023 17:18:54 -0500 Received: from 1064022179695 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Tue, 28 Mar 2023 17:18:51 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mimestream 0.41.6) References: <27aea5070eeb1b1535f3e75489295feb@rjmcmahon.com> <81945e3138c8a33a83ecd401778a2bf7@rjmcmahon.com> <32p0n880-7737-9q9p-4s2o-10nr071os6r7@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: From: dan Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 17:18:54 -0500 Message-ID: To: rjmcmahon Cc: Frantisek Borsik , Larry Press , Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat , libreqos , Sebastian Moeller , David Lang Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c2123a05f7fd3ef3" Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2023 22:18:56 -0000 --000000000000c2123a05f7fd3ef3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable IMO, there is a very near zero chance of this =E2=80=98FiWi=E2=80=99 comin= g to fruition. No one wants it. I don=E2=80=99t want it, I see nothing but flaws, single = points of failure, security issues, erosion of privacy in homes and business, and general consumer mistrust of such a model and well as consolidation and monopolization of internet access. I will actively speak out against this, is bad in just about every way you can talk about. I cannot find a single benefit it offers. On Mar 28, 2023 at 3:31:40 PM, rjmcmahon wrote: > Agreed though, from a semiconductor perspective, 100K units over ten+ > years isn't going to drive a foundry to produce the parts required. > Then, a small staff makes the same decisions for all 100K premises > regardless of things like the ability to pay for differentiators as they > have no differentiators (we all get Model T black.) These staffs are > also trying to predict the future without any real ability to affect > that future. It's worse than a tragedy of the commons because the sunk > mistakes get magnified every passing year. > > A FiWi architecture with pluggable components may have the opportunity > to address these issues and do it in volume and at fair prices and also > reduce climate impacts per taking in account capacity / (latency * > distance * power), by making that aspect field upgradeable. > > Bob > > https://sifinetworks.com/residential/cities/simi-valley-ca/ > > > I'm due to get it to my area Q2 (or so). we're a suburb outside LA, > > but 100k+ people so not tiny. > > > David Lang > > > > On Tue, 28 Mar 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: > > > > There are municipal broadband projects. Most are in rural areas > > > partially funded by the federal government via the USDA. Glasgow > > > started a few decades ago. Similar to LUS in Lafayette, LA. > > > https://www.usda.gov/broadband > > > > > > Rural areas get a lot of federal money for things, a la the farm bill > > > which also pays for food stamps instituted as part of the New Deal > > > after the Great Depression. > > > > > > > https://sustainableagriculture.net/our-work/campaigns/fbcampaign/what-is-= the-farm-bill/ > > > > > > None of this is really relevant to the vast majority of our urban > > > populations that get broadband from investor-owned companies. These > > > companies don't receive federal subsidies though sometimes they get > > > access to municipal revenue bonds when doing city infrastructures. > > > > > > Bob > > >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-mitchell-79078b5 and the like > > >> are doing a pretty good job (given the circumstances) here in the US. > > >> At least, that=E2=80=99s my understanding of his work. > > >> > > >> All the best, > > >> > > >> Frank > > >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > >> > > >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > >> > > >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 [2] > > >> > > >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 [3] > > >> > > >> Skype: casioa5302ca > > >> > > >> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > >> > > >> On 28 March 2023 at 7:47:33 PM, rjmcmahon (rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com) > > >> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get this > > >>> (structural separation) right. > > >>> > > >>> Pre-coaxial cable & contract carriage, the FCC licensed spectrum to > > >>> the > > >>> major media companies and placed a news obligation on them for these > > >>> OTA > > >>> rights. A society can't run a democracy well without quality and > > >>> factual > > >>> information to the constituents. Sadly, contract carriage got rid of > > >>> > > >>> that news as a public service obligation as predicted by Eli Noam. > > >>> http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html Hence we get > > >>> January > > >>> 6th and an insurrection. > > >>> > > >>> It takes a staff of 300 to produce 30 minutes of news three times a > > >>> day. > > >>> The co-axial franchise agreements per each city traded this > > >>> obligation > > >>> for a community access channel and a small studio, and annual > > >>> franchise > > >>> fees. History has shown this is insufficient for a city to provide > > >>> quality news to its citizens. Community access channels failed > > >>> miserably. > > >>> > > >>> Another requirement was two cables so there would be "competition" > > >>> in > > >>> the coaxial offerings. This rarely happened because of natural > > >>> monopoly > > >>> both in the last mile and in negotiating broadcast rights (mostly > > >>> for > > >>> sports.) There is only one broadcast rights winner, e.g. NBC for the > > >>> > > >>> Olympics, and only one last mile winner. That's been proven > > >>> empirically > > >>> in the U.S. > > >>> > > >>> Now cities are dependent on those franchise fees for their budgets. > > >>> And > > >>> the cable cos rolled up to a national level. So it's mostly the FCC > > >>> that > > >>> regulates all of this where they care more about Janet Jackson's > > >>> breast > > >>> than providing accurate news to help a democracy function well. > > >>> > > >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controvers= y > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> It gets worse as people are moving to unicast networks for their > > >>> "news." > > >>> But we're really not getting news at all, we're gravitating to > > >>> emotional > > >>> validations per our dysfunctions. Facebook et al happily provide > > >>> this > > >>> because it sells more ads. And then the major equipment providers > > >>> claim > > >>> they're doing great engineering because they can carry "AI loads!!" > > >>> and > > >>> their stock goes up in value. This means ads & news feeds that > > >>> trigger > > >>> dopamine hits for addicts are driving the money flows. Which is a > > >>> sad > > >>> theme for undereducated populations. > > >>> > > >>> And ChatGPT is not the answer for our lack of education and a public > > >>> > > >>> obligation to support those educations, which includes addiction > > >>> recovery programs, and the ability to think critically for > > >>> ourselves. > > >>> > > >>> Bob > > >>> Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class "textbook": > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> [1] > > >>> Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success [1] > > >>> The Stokab report should be required reading for all local > > >>> government > > >>> officials. Stockholm is one of the top Internet cities in the > > >>> worl... > > >>> > > >>> cis471.blogspot.com [1] > > >>> > > >>> ------------------------- > > >>> > > >>> From: Starlink on behalf of > > >>> > > >>> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink > > >>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM > > >>> To: David Lang > > >>> Cc: dan ; Frantisek Borsik > > >>> ; libreqos > > >>> ; Dave Taht via Starlink > > >>> ; rjmcmahon > > >>> ; > > >>> bloat > > >>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure > > >>> w/Comcast chat > > >>> > > >>> Hi David, > > >>> > > >>> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang wrote: > > >>> > > >>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote: > > >>> > > >>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital > > >> communications infrastructure as life support critical. > > >> > > >>>> Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water > > >> (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is > > >> mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in > > >> that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different > > >> perspective. > > >> > > >>>> Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into > > >> communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other > > >> critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP > > >> fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable > > >> way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the > > >> while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this > > >> is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has > > >> beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber > > >> access lines would also last for decades requiring no active > > >> component > > >> > > >> changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management. > > >> (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these > > >> typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life > > >> times of decades). > > >> > > >>> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing > > >> such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in > > >> many > > >> > > >> states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from building > > >> such > > >> > > >> systems. > > >> > > >> A resistance that in the current system is understandable*... > > >> btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just think > > >> that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we want > > >> actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place to > > >> implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple ISPs > > >> running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There are > > >> two > > >> > > >> ways I see to address this structural problem: > > >> a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors for > > >> "reasonable" prices > > >> b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain the > > >> access network > > >> > > >> None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we already > > >> see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a > > >> spanner > > >> > > >> into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, but > > >> will > > >> > > >> not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as would be > > >> possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My subjective > > >> preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would offer a > > >> level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do best, > > >> offer > > >> > > >> internet access service while not pushing the cost of the access > > >> network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow a > > >> fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to convert > > >> to FTTH first.... > > >> > > >> However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I understand > > >> it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses hooked up > > >> to > > >> > > >> the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house network > > >> design in a future-proof way... > > >> > > >> Regards > > >> Sebastian > > >> > > >> *) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing, just > > >> that I can see why it is happening. > > >> > > >>> David Lang > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> Starlink mailing list > > >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starli= nk__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_= spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$ > > >> > > >> > > >> Links: > > >> ------ > > >> [1] > > >> > https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Links: > > >> ------ > > >> [1] http://cis471.blogspot.com > > >> [2] tel:+421919416714 > > >> [3] tel:+420775230885 > > > > > --000000000000c2123a05f7fd3ef3 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
IMO, there is a very near zero chance of this =E2=80=98FiWi=E2=80=99 co= ming to fruition.=C2=A0 No one wants it.=C2=A0 I don=E2=80=99t want it, I s= ee nothing but flaws, single points of failure, security issues, erosion of= privacy in homes and business, =C2=A0and general consumer mistrust of such= a model and well as consolidation and monopolization of internet access.= =C2=A0 I will actively speak out against this, is bad in just about every w= ay you can talk about.=C2=A0 I cannot find a single benefit it offers. =C2= =A0




On Mar 28, 2023 at 3:31:40 PM, rj= mcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.= com> wrote:
=20
Agreed though, from a semiconductor perspective, 100K units over ten+ <= br>years isn't going to drive a foundry to produce the parts required. =
Then, a small staff makes the same decisions for all 100K premises
= regardless of things like the ability to pay for differentiators as they have no differentiators (we all get Model T black.) These staffs are
= also trying to predict the future without any real ability to affect
th= at future. It's worse than a tragedy of the commons because the sunk mistakes get magnified every passing year.

A FiWi architecture wit= h pluggable components may have the opportunity
to address these issues= and do it in volume and at fair prices and also
reduce climate impacts= per taking in account capacity / (latency *
distance * power), by maki= ng that aspect field upgradeable.

Bob
= htt= ps://sifinetworks.com/residential/cities/simi-valley-ca/

I&= #39;m due to get it to my area Q2 (or so). we're a suburb outside LA,
but 100k+ people so not tiny.
=

David Lang


On Tue, 28 Mar 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:

> There are munici= pal broadband projects. Most are in rural areas
> partially funded by the federal government via the USD= A. Glasgow
> started a few de= cades ago. Similar to LUS in Lafayette, LA.
> https://www.usd= a.gov/broadband
>
> Rural areas get a lot of federal mo= ney for things, a la the farm bill
> which also pays for food stamps instituted as part of the New Deal =
> after the Great Depression.=
>
> https://sustainableagricultur= e.net/our-work/campaigns/fbcampaign/what-is-the-farm-bill/
>
> None of this is really relevant to the vast majority of our urban <= br>
> populations that get broadba= nd from investor-owned companies. These
> companies don't receive federal subsidies though sometim= es they get
> access to munic= ipal revenue bonds when doing city infrastructures.
>
> Bob=
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/c= hristopher-mitchell-79078b5 and the like
>> are doing a pretty good job (given the circumstances) = here in the US.
>> At least= , that=E2=80=99s my understanding of his work.
>>
>> = All the best,
>>
>> Frank
>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>
>>= ; https://www.linke= din.com/in/frantisekborsik
&g= t;>
>> Signal, Telegram= , WhatsApp: +421919416714 [2]
>= ;>
>> iMessage, mobile:= +420775230885 [3]
>>
<= /blockquote>
>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>
>> frantisek= .borsik@gmail.com
>>
>> On 28 March 2023 at 7:47:= 33 PM, rjmcmahon (rjmcmahon@rjmc= mahon.com)
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Interesting. I'm skeptical that our citie= s in the U.S. can get this
>&g= t;> (structural separation) right.
>>>
>>> P= re-coaxial cable & contract carriage, the FCC licensed spectrum to
<= /blockquote>
>>> the
>>> major media companies and placed a news = obligation on them for these
>= >> OTA
>>> rights.= A society can't run a democracy well without quality and
>>> factual
>>> information to the constituents. Sadly, contr= act carriage got rid of
>>&= gt;
>>> that news as a = public service obligation as predicted by Eli Noam.
>>> http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html Hence we get
>>> Janua= ry
>>> 6th and an insurr= ection.
>>>
>>> It takes a staff of 300 to prod= uce 30 minutes of news three times a
>>> day.
>>>= ; The co-axial franchise agreements per each city traded this
>>> obligation
>>> for a community access channel and a small= studio, and annual
>>> = franchise
>>> fees. Hist= ory has shown this is insufficient for a city to provide
>>> quality news to its citizens. Communit= y access channels failed
>>= > miserably.
>>>
=
>>> Another requirement was= two cables so there would be "competition"
>>> in
>>> the coaxial offerings. This rarely happened because of nat= ural
>>> monopoly
>>> both in the last mile and = in negotiating broadcast rights (mostly
>>> for
>>&= gt; sports.) There is only one broadcast rights winner, e.g. NBC for the
>>>
>>> Olympics, and only one last mile winner. = That's been proven
>>&g= t; empirically
>>> in th= e U.S.
>>>
>>> Now cities are dependent on thos= e franchise fees for their budgets.
>>> And
>>> = the cable cos rolled up to a national level. So it's mostly the FCC
=
>>> that
>>> regulates all of this where they care = more about Janet Jackson's
&g= t;>> breast
>>> th= an providing accurate news to help a democracy function well.
>>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXX= VIII_halftime_show_controversy
>>>
>>>
=
>>> It gets worse as people= are moving to unicast networks for their
>>> "news."
>>> But we're really not getting news at all, we'= ;re gravitating to
>>> e= motional
>>> validations= per our dysfunctions. Facebook et al happily provide
>>> this
>>> because it sells more ads. And then the major equipment = providers
>>> claim
<= /blockquote>
>>> they're doing great = engineering because they can carry "AI loads!!"
<= blockquote type=3D"cite">>>> and
>>> their stock goes up in value. This means ads & n= ews feeds that
>>> trigg= er
>>> dopamine hits for= addicts are driving the money flows. Which is a
>>> sad
= >>> theme for undereducated populations.
>>>
&g= t;>> And ChatGPT is not the answer for our lack of education and a pu= blic
>>>
>>> obligation to support those educat= ions, which includes addiction
&g= t;>> recovery programs, and the ability to think critically for
>>> ourselves.
>>>
>>> Bob
>&g= t;> Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class "textbook&q= uot;:
>>>
>>>
>> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-= 19-years-of-municipal.html
&g= t;>>
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband = success [1]
>>> The Stok= ab report should be required reading for all local
>>> government
>>> officials. Stockholm is one of the top Internet citi= es in the
>>> worl...
>>>
>>> ci= s471.blogspot.com [1]
>>= ;>
>>> -------------= ------------
>>>
>>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.b= ufferbloat.net> on behalf of
>>>
>>> Seb= astian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM
>>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>>> Cc: dan <d= andenson@gmail.com>; Frantisek Borsik
>>> <= frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>; libreqos
>>> <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Dave Taht via Starlink
>>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; rjmcmahon=
>>> <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>;
>>> bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
=
>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On f= iber as critical infrastructure
&= gt;>> w/Comcast chat
>&g= t;>
>>> Hi David,
>>>
>>> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang <= ;david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wr= ote:
>>>
>>> The point of the thread is that we= still do not treat digital
>&= gt; =C2=A0communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>>
>>>> Well, let's keep things in perspective, unli= ke power, water
>> =C2=A0(f= resh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is
>> mostly not critical yet. But I agr= ee that we are clearly on a path in
>> that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different<= br>
>> perspective.
>>
>>>> Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access= network into
>> =C2=A0comm= unal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other
>> critical infrastructure (see list abov= e, plus roads) and I see a PtP
&g= t;> fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable<= br>
>> way to allow ISPs to com= pete in the internet service field all the
>> while using the communally build access network for a fe= w. IIRC this
>> is how Amst= erdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has
=
>> beed essentially unchanged for decades, = I estimate that current fiber
>= ;> access lines would also last for decades requiring no active
>> component
>>
&g= t;> changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management= .
>> (With all my love for = communal ownership and maintenance, these
>> typically are not very nimble and hence best when we tal= k about life
>> times of de= cades).
>>
>>> This is happening in some places (t= he town where I live is doing
>= ;> =C2=A0such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and i= n
>> many
=
>>
>> states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from buildi= ng
>> such
>>
>> systems.
>>
>> A resistance that in the = current system is understandable*...
>> btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just= think
>> that the access n= etwork is more of a natural monopoly and if we want
>> actual ISP competition, the access network is t= he wrong place to
>> implem= ent it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple ISPs
=
>> running independent fibers to all/most d= welling units... There are
>&= gt; two
>>
>> ways I see to address this structural p= roblem:
>> a) require ISPs = to rent the access links to their competitors for
>> "reasonable" prices
>> b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity b= uild and maintain the
>> ac= cess network
>>
>> None of these is terribly attracti= ve to current ISPs, but we already
>> see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a <= br>
>> spanner
=
>>
>> into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, b= ut
>> will
>>
>> not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see= fit (as would be
>> possib= le in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My subjective
=
>> preference is b) as I mentioned before, = as I think that would offer a
>= ;> level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do best,
=
>> offer
>>
&g= t;> internet access service while not pushing the cost of the access
=
>> network build-out to all-fi= ber onto the ISPs. This would allow a
>> fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to= convert
>> to FTTH first..= ..
>>
>> However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bo= b's idea, as I understand
>= ;> it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses hooked up <= br>
>> to
>>
&g= t;> the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house network=
>> design in a future-proo= f way...
>>
>> Regards
>> Sebastian
&g= t;>
>> *) I am not sayi= ng such resistance is nice or the right thing, just
>> that I can see why it is happening.
>>
>>> David Lang
>>
>> _____________= __________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
= >> Starlink@lists.b= ufferbloat.net
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://li= sts.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2d= taz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$
<= /blockquote>
>>
>>
>>= Links:
>> ------
>> [1]
>> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockho= lm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>>
>>
>>
>> Links:
>> -= -----
>> [1] http://cis471.blogspot.com
>> [2] tel:+421919416714
>> [3] tel:+420775230885
>
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