From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yb1-xb36.google.com (mail-yb1-xb36.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C2643CB37; Fri, 17 Mar 2023 19:48:55 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb36.google.com with SMTP id e194so7440516ybf.1; Fri, 17 Mar 2023 16:48:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1679096934; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=XyqhJwPwQMJo969lgnhOL8O1SEMeGRuTp9JJvUMt81Y=; b=im3Ww4BuPG2fwyPvwfnSZvAfv/CLneKszQ446xcxK4DxDnP2AHUxd39LhWJ4aQH1fY g2SInFbE6g/qS15VdDhMcWyrdQkT47ZY3eKU6GmuUUlOkfBDskuGlU4g8i1TH7LbkD2e aSxxaqvkghca3tNo06HcDy/6VTs9SoH9ROWuQUnymEug9XNA082eCXL+tazKmlyz594c IRF9sOVR+rjUsp4nXlfwCAcshsWYJQrPVdPtWetemBbDcbQmfVMgxyYkvodIZATw8aIa MB+9n3WTWEdYf1L+9mEQ6jXexIsWYEP0/b8ufZKcsHrGpolS7Po8o+UvCI7rFkAESS1m onqQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1679096934; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=XyqhJwPwQMJo969lgnhOL8O1SEMeGRuTp9JJvUMt81Y=; b=KzUiBVqC6AKzsN5gwRjz4nac6qzwBnN/cuRbdzckCllELflQG+tnFjPhpYgaRLAqsD A7gB1I4vTe+g3Xh8awGZak3KrJoPmgQBvXZV7azfoiNC5NN6Fe07u+h1yDFR80zvSByR kXWuY7ydczgWTIdsdbTwcSVAReOgG5hdwQgqkXf9KtqqOuVtVTsNkvS6ejiJVuvrjyYz 2P0mFLCVFYbMXo71eolAx1JneeZihAKdheTG40K5lb+90+zpqaElXZ2R2xL2mrLly7ox 3THa0VcSKoIio6bScAvDYRYUhKLqyiHOLUQH0EjLyu+WpibesEVOaL3Fv1snqSsw5NZh IKIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKWKjdKKR6EXnNCGrHJkb01hZAh5fk4X/3vqijJmEaSA3whnmqYn yEDrhZWsnGr9ZAc6dM+Qvun4bJK26s+O7Bofbrc2CxOi1cw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8PSxRzdc/jnZsFydqNQA4dTqOm7xwV7YO12gfersc5idDVc0Ztn0pzxgBOnWKo7UwZLQbGuCKsiM44eO4IRsQ= X-Received: by 2002:a5b:d0f:0:b0:b3b:6576:b22b with SMTP id y15-20020a5b0d0f000000b00b3b6576b22bmr189313ybp.12.1679096934205; Fri, 17 Mar 2023 16:48:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: dan Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 17:48:43 -0600 Message-ID: To: Sebastian Moeller Cc: =?UTF-8?Q?Dave_T=C3=A4ht?= , Dave Taht via Starlink , =?UTF-8?Q?David_Fern=C3=A1ndez?= , libreqos Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000004e8c7005f721388a" Subject: Re: [Starlink] [LibreQoS] GPON vs Active Fiber Ethernet X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2023 23:48:55 -0000 --0000000000004e8c7005f721388a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" per copper vs gpon. There are a lot of parts to this but I think it's safe to say that any *DSL product is inferior to ethernet or gpon so aren't part of the conversation. We're really talking ethernet vs *GPON here. No other fiber options are widespread and viable for most. I don't want to play both sides here so I'm just talking pros on 'ethernet'. not 'copper'... but also copper. Ethernet lives on copper or fiber. Copper 'last meter' is cheap, CHEAPER than any fiber product. Copper is cheaper until you hit 100m and then fiber wins. Ethernet is near wire speed *routed* on a number of modern and weather resistant outdoor products. Backhauling on multi-strand fiber eliminates one primary negative with copper in that cost over 100m number. There's likely some wash in having fiber to the home and the cost of termination and ONUs vs PoE injectors in home pushing up to powered switches. Pro for powered switch is that routing option. Dramatically easier (as in, it's actually possible) to build rings and meshy routed networks on ethernet allowing for much more backhoe-fade safe networks. While not as future proof as fiber strands to the door, it's capable of 1G, 2.5G today and really 10G for the most part though there is a lack of hardware with those ports so leave that up in the air. XGSPON wins the max per port speed here, but that same network with active ethernet over fiber backhauls and copper can EASILY do 100G on the backhaul and 2.5G/port and even go hybrid with mostly copper last meter and some active fiber off 10,40,100G ports when profitable. It's not all roses, but there are real world scenarios where a methodical buildout of ethernet can be a better choice especially if we're talking about maximum performance. I don't want to lean too heavily on mikrotik here, lots of people aren't in love with them, but they are definitely pushing boundaries here. https://mikrotik.com/product/crs504_4xq_out 4x100G switch, outdoor grade, supports 4x breakout cables so can do 4x4x25G or 2x100G feeds + 2x4x25 or 2x4x10G on a Marvell Prestera switch (presents as individual interfaces). XGSPON can't touch it. Heck, you could do remote XGSPON with a TIBIT port if you really wanted to, or feed an Netpower 7R units with 10Gbps each and get reverse PoE to power everything. --0000000000004e8c7005f721388a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
per copper vs gpon.=C2=A0 There are a lot= of parts to this but I think it's safe to say that any *DSL product is= inferior to ethernet or gpon so aren't part of the conversation.=C2=A0= =C2=A0We're really talking ethernet vs *GPON here.=C2=A0 No other fibe= r options are widespread and viable for most.=C2=A0 I don't want to pla= y both sides here so I'm just talking pros on 'ethernet'.=C2=A0= not 'copper'... but also copper.

Ethernet lives on copper o= r fiber.=C2=A0
Copper 'last meter' is cheap, CHEAPER than any f= iber product.=C2=A0 Copper is cheaper until you hit 100m and then fiber win= s.=C2=A0
Ethernet is near wire speed *routed* on a number of modern and= weather=C2=A0resistant outdoor products.=C2=A0
Backhauling on multi-st= rand fiber eliminates one primary negative with copper in that cost over 10= 0m number.=C2=A0
There's likely some wash in having fiber to the ho= me and the cost of termination and ONUs vs PoE injectors in home pushing up= to powered switches.
Pro for powered switch is that routing option.=C2= =A0 Dramatically easier (as in, it's actually possible) to build rings = and meshy routed networks on ethernet allowing for much more backhoe-fade s= afe networks.=C2=A0 =C2=A0While not as future proof as fiber strands to the= door, it's capable of 1G, 2.5G today and really 10G for the most part = though there is a lack of hardware with those ports so leave that up in the= air.=C2=A0 XGSPON=C2=A0wins the max per port speed here, but that same net= work with active ethernet over fiber backhauls and copper can EASILY do 100= G on the backhaul and 2.5G/port and even go hybrid with mostly copper last = meter and some active fiber off 10,40,100G ports when profitable.=C2=A0
=
It's not all roses, but there are real world scenarios where a meth= odical buildout of ethernet can be a better choice especially if we're = talking about maximum performance.=C2=A0=C2=A0

I don't want to l= ean too heavily on mikrotik here, lots of people aren't in love with th= em, but they are definitely pushing boundaries=C2=A0here.=C2=A0
https://mikrotik.com/produ= ct/crs504_4xq_out
4x100G switch, outdoor grade, supports 4x breakout= cables so can do 4x4x25G or 2x100G feeds=C2=A0+ 2x4x25 or 2x4x10G on a Marvell Prestera switc= h (presents as individual interfaces).=C2=A0 XGSPON=C2=A0can't touch it= .=C2=A0 Heck, you could do remote XGSPON=C2=A0with a TIBIT=C2=A0port if you= really wanted to, or feed an Netpower 7R units with 10Gbps each and get re= verse PoE to power everything.
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