From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from se2t-iad1.servconfig.com (se2t-iad1.servconfig.com [199.250.216.247]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 250053B29D; Sat, 22 Oct 2022 20:18:04 -0400 (EDT) Received: from whub57.webhostinghub.com ([192.145.238.65]) by se2-iad1.servconfig.com with esmtps (TLSv1.2:AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1omOgj-0002Ew-4R; Sat, 22 Oct 2022 20:18:03 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=breakingpointsolutions.com; s=default; h=Content-Type:Cc:To:Subject: Message-ID:Date:From:In-Reply-To:References:MIME-Version:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=nQPSec6kS+T81OYraHwX4DaSD00mHLnuAglmqbj9oJU=; b=MfWn6WJM2UUemQGhYlv6NFKjHk ryjpH2CXWFWk1MJUGrNRaGHff6JL6q5yFTvxFM443R0UNcgv1UKjFwuL9wfBlouRM+CIxlqIHDUnZ CQgX2hhuc2VZfEXKTuXzS5hGEMaWRidtumRKHhAKxxusjvS5PABCQScoxcor40uDPLjW54+jRPynz SyVJtenLs+BU2EgD19s08C0gWZyFkzqx3oa8o7geRgXIRvXtqI6ueJx9pbrLMvyU9H+drUMTwU2Zp puWf5tlEtmyM8kpQEHtXlPHltKoENNMlF8qAa+CVXTmveypzrOeTdWNIB43StZ8xFc4WPwe9u7Art 336a/Tcg==; Received: from mail-ed1-f53.google.com ([209.85.208.53]:41511) by whub57.webhostinghub.com with esmtpsa (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.95) (envelope-from ) id 1omOgi-008pA8-7N; Sat, 22 Oct 2022 17:18:00 -0700 Received: by mail-ed1-f53.google.com with SMTP id z97so18913738ede.8; Sat, 22 Oct 2022 17:18:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3c5Mr4w8vS6zQVjSEmlQ73RgqWGgN/WZk4/i66Lph3u+Wz2cf8 /5fYZKaiq+uiYS5vP0uGNUtEiAvwmR7eBBQQy4E= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM5ut/UMP0JfBZV6ALNp2XmXZbO8NirfeBXYMHg2hXerAg5rmodMtFKRNCYRJz0zIkkpUw+ldVVIU9S5eHcCGCs= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:7704:b0:780:da38:4480 with SMTP id kw4-20020a170907770400b00780da384480mr21916952ejc.64.1666484279245; Sat, 22 Oct 2022 17:17:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Glenn Fishbine Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2022 19:17:48 -0500 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: Rpm , Measurement Analysis and Tools Working Group , IETF IPPM WG , tsvwg IETF list , discuss , Dave Taht via Starlink Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007d031405eba89b67" X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: whub57.webhostinghub.com: authenticated_id: glenn@breakingpointsolutions.com X-Authenticated-Sender: whub57.webhostinghub.com: glenn@breakingpointsolutions.com X-Originating-IP: 192.145.238.65 X-SpamExperts-Domain: whub57.webhostinghub.com X-SpamExperts-Username: 192.145.238.65 Authentication-Results: servconfig.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=192.145.238.65@whub57.webhostinghub.com X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Class: ham X-SpamExperts-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.27) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT80ex0RFy7oQAjd4J4m8ZYiPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5xjY+OAhH5AWsaAq/gcH1Vjg3a1yHOODQv9lzGZaNeZB68Q DfP3I8CdLOY2nOEpyuYfIj/ScBYYcAYVg9wZgFXlcyvPIvDXrOQAuvqlsynVM3WJlFlni3KUV50D WtgYiXNl8dmsxDwp7RnymMoVR6CJBro5zpP9RdvV7A8QxtRYAQBjx2Y1Ei3Q0/lachM4zfMIpGEq zxwKxaIoY6Jq51Hxg6ObuaO6ymIOhlIzzTXhKLyYMpOW1tVTyfU+2JU0mxcMq8csxOzHsvypqXuv //2bwIakfoo+8Jo9gzCaS1hGW3vL0rIyGz51E4KcXSpYzZMtfiLZt2Yuu3990NL0iLeRLPRKCRe+ oJUSXhpCzczzpIWOlODcJqXBj7ghH+GeN6H3C1aYbQsJfJqU8BejfsndsXV2towYSIbeZLMzFPMr g3Hd0G1x4pfZ1aISb7ugeb3EER4aaezxB4UAOdANOt+u0zgH4GfKBDVex2W3Ehhfr2gwwyHfTPSi 7dSZrogIGqhr+1UiotYMJH3MnUzxMcOY3WYdNxMU6g6rgAqTbJg65XJ7Wcw/vHrkNz0yR/nxmRhz HDeqqFz43py4SDhdaHkWPB2+p6NfKk4waqJN/guLs5N0UzaYgoR+wb2lzmThd7s3uh7Bt+dO1WLs 9dGoiWSAdu5jb/M316+qYxhRsU5ezhAxbIiHkMjZLTm+7axVvYhfS9s5XUYLi1ZJ0wR9fSpmfWiE RGM9iCFDIy2IsdDpwpplvsX6cB5xKyw7TDHgaRz9bhqWkbQuv3vbRcS1ojOOpASU8nI0l2AWwkUS z/3cxVelK1faeTbaV8Evkv7jQHjkCcj7ATESLZldlzAWaP8bwoSfyGMZp/EB2rDVPafO39bdscM+ HR8bKsbE0uw4ZO4cqyxIlWJ2QRHtVmrjJ5XPWvlHuV3Q2rw95J5wtRKaEr7K0NkJW0tTyPwO8GUY jGIrtNx/BRYM3BkcTB7EbaOG6ERCN/TYO8Po1sFYLrYxpzepoEV8JoWhfuVs2p92abPgbeXHs2QX yAsaL4ZHh1vlG1qJifpTMUpcl9TeRl3rusknyyU0QBpiK1Qf+zrSKJ0= X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@se1-lax1.servconfig.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 23 Oct 2022 20:42:28 -0400 Subject: Re: [Starlink] [M-Lab-Discuss] misery metrics & consequences X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2022 00:18:04 -0000 --0000000000007d031405eba89b67 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable As a classic died in the wool empiricist, granted that you can identify "misery" factors, given a population of 1,000 users, how do you propose deriving a misery index for that population? We can measure download, upload, ping, jitter pretty much without user intervention. For the measurements you hypothesize, how you you automatically extract those indecies without subjective user contamination. I.e. my download speed sucks. Measure the download speed. My isp doesn't fix my problem. Measure what? How? Human survey technology is 70+ years old and it still has problems figuring out how to correlate opinion with fact. Without an objective measurement scheme that doesn't require human interaction, the misery index is a cool hypothesis with no way to link to actual data. What objective measurements can be made? Answer that and the index becomes useful. Otherwise it's just consumer whining. Not trying to be combative here, in fact I like the concept you support, but I'm hard pressed to see how the concept can lead to data, and the data lead to policy proposals. On Fri, Oct 21, 2022, 5:20 PM Dave Taht wrote: > One of the best talks I've ever seen on how to measure customer > satisfaction properly just went up after the P99 Conference. > > It's called Misery Metrics. > > After going through a deep dive as to why and how we think and act on > percentiles, bins, and other statistical methods as to how we use the > web and internet are *so wrong* (well worth watching and thinking > about if you are relying on or creating network metrics today), it > then points to the real metrics that matter to users and the ultimate > success of an internet business: Timeouts, retries, misses, failed > queries, angry phone calls, abandoned shopping carts and loss of > engagement. > > https://www.p99conf.io/session/misery-metrics-consequences/ > > The ending advice was - don't aim to make a specific percentile > acceptable, aim for an acceptable % of misery. > > I enjoyed the p99 conference more than any conference I've attended in > years. > > -- > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: > > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 5607352320-FXtz > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "discuss" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to discuss+unsubscribe@measurementlab.net. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/a/measurementlab.net/d/msgid/discuss/CAA93jw4w2= 7a1EO_QQG7NNkih%2BC3QQde5%3D_7OqGeS9xy9nB6wkg%40mail.gmail.com > . > --0000000000007d031405eba89b67 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
As a classic died in the wool empiricist, granted that yo= u can identify "misery" factors, given a population of 1,000 user= s, how do you propose deriving a misery index for that population?

We can measure download, upload, ping= , jitter pretty much without user intervention.=C2=A0 For the measurements = you hypothesize, how you you automatically extract those indecies without s= ubjective user contamination.

I.e.=C2=A0 my download speed sucks. Measure the download speed.
=

My isp doesn't fix my pro= blem. Measure what? How?

Human survey technology is 70+ years old and it still has problems figurin= g out how to correlate opinion with fact.

=
Without an objective measurement scheme that doesn't = require human interaction, the misery index is a cool hypothesis with no wa= y to link to actual data.=C2=A0 What objective measurements can be made?=C2= =A0 Answer that and the index becomes useful. Otherwise it's just consu= mer whining.

Not trying = to be combative here, in fact I like the concept you support, but I'm h= ard pressed to see how the concept can lead to data, and the data lead to p= olicy proposals.


On Fri, Oct 21, 2022, 5:2= 0 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.c= om> wrote:
One of the best t= alks I've ever seen on how to measure customer
satisfaction properly just went up after the P99 Conference.

It's called Misery Metrics.

After going through a deep dive as to why and how we think and act on
percentiles, bins, and other statistical methods as to how we use the
web and internet are *so wrong* (well worth watching and thinking
about if you are relying on or creating network metrics today), it
then points to the real metrics that matter to users and the ultimate
success of an internet business: Timeouts, retries, misses, failed
queries, angry phone calls, abandoned shopping carts and loss of
engagement.

https://www.p99conf.io/session= /misery-metrics-consequences/

The ending advice was - don't aim to make a specific percentile
acceptable, aim for an acceptable % of misery.

I enjoyed the p99 conference more than any conference I've attended in = years.

--
This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
h= ttps://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666560= 7352320-FXtz
Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;discuss" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to discuss+unsubscribe@measurementlab.net.<= br> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/a/measurementlab.net/d/msgid/discuss/= CAA93jw4w27a1EO_QQG7NNkih%2BC3QQde5%3D_7OqGeS9xy9nB6wkg%40mail.gmail.com.
--0000000000007d031405eba89b67--