From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oa1-x2e.google.com (mail-oa1-x2e.google.com [IPv6:2001:4860:4864:20::2e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80CEE3CBC5 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2023 03:46:27 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oa1-x2e.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-17aeb49429eso894353fac.6 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2023 00:46:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1678952786; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Oh13XUn027LbwkUziqFhbegM73NykHGOfBe9OZFqHdY=; b=JZkB8hQPHpB4zcM09Nqq3ll7AD7AiyechEyxG1/mUj/PuhrJA955ZszGLznfINKPEg MC67YjmHUZUMUi3rw+mHsZqcC5bB1w6m88oPkdCoPRS8ljxzMpBHTlyKM1/kz1X5tKxL GDkgZ5wER2wZOtNI8uQytTieiPjqJq5NruUAT0xZzSou7voed1TFMEQZUhjX/7aAlnc1 n3wkkvvAeY1GzeNDXgly4GpGyJXXpvNgPY4Ub/SotqcizIIpRXW2g2k+xUAa4T4b+iIY mE8t8cZupis4ySM3J0fMkMyFbDTjCPIqprB9V5d17aTrfQTQrx8QGoOOap3B5g18xf1l ZcWw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678952786; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=Oh13XUn027LbwkUziqFhbegM73NykHGOfBe9OZFqHdY=; b=zUhdZQJMaKCOpl29K5e0/8/EaGpynu8oprK5nWdAnOw5W3ytGT1EVENKAgorotAuBi fZuh2FNxte4Aa+uyTlOZCwpVAnrY24csl9eiorlkF2zSzBg5y4IBb2yvjPuUHLUKtJmK SAH7y0je+FfSEs+gd/Zi/RND8ihUutqg5dpRmnBSIREvegv0BGZWLuoTLh3lw3rxVC9s mHesUQ1pUZ5pVRMJSTLnqbAGBqsFmox6do3pj/8vwtgnIOIBEDnxOrRL/F1cH7h+i6P9 f4Vj3bZBZOZPxrInYr3HQJxm79Re7cXv84WIyA0/PiInRoCjwINhwHn2FJROp0Q0sHQB EQ5A== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKVh78CbiMDSS5F4FcM34mgfsIeTjyO3pxKBr68MLYIlJflmfK5B 9A+18fl0wJFP7sS+IQ848ZQp3wUOjHm6pcCvErymToQ/qHcZ6Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+xagtDnjMEDjvFh9osFOIswjsgsbaySMsxCIvGeJ+hZkkplLVlxOJHEaL5aQjLoGKrbUJN7gKCOtRuYaRqzbY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:1399:b0:177:adf6:4fa1 with SMTP id 25-20020a056870139900b00177adf64fa1mr5327865oas.1.1678952786479; Thu, 16 Mar 2023 00:46:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6358:63a4:b0:104:67b2:1e1a with HTTP; Thu, 16 Mar 2023 00:46:25 -0700 (PDT) From: =?UTF-8?Q?David_Fern=C3=A1ndez?= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 08:46:25 +0100 Message-ID: To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] On FiWi X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2023 07:46:27 -0000 ISPs like Orange are into extending the life of the routers they give for Internet access, which are built for that: https://www.orange.com/en/commitments/oranges-commitment/to-the-environment France has introduced a repairability index for products, so you know better what are you buying: https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/indice-reparabilite Then, there is the one from iFixit: https://www.ifixit.com/News/49319/why-ifixits-repair-scores-are-different-t= han-the-french-repair-index Wondering what repairability index would have the Starlink terminals all around the world. Regards, David > Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 18:08:41 -0400 > From: dan > To: Dave Taht > Cc: Rpm , libreqos > , Bruce Perens , > Dave Taht via Starlink , bloat > , David Lang > Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [Bloat] [LibreQoS] On FiWi > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" > > On Mar 15, 2023 at 4:04:27 PM, Dave Taht wrote: > >> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 2:52=E2=80=AFPM David Lang wrote= : >> >> >> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, Dave Taht wrote: >> >> >> > On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 12:33=E2=80=AFPM David Lang via Rpm >> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> if you want another example of the failure, look at any conference >> center, they >> >> >> have a small number of APs with wide coverage. It works well when the >> place is >> >> >> empty and they walk around and test it, but when it fills up with >> users, the >> >> >> entire network collapses. >> >> >> >> >> >> Part of this is that wifi was really designed for sparse environments= , >> so it's >> >> >> solution to "I didn't get my message through" is to talk slower (and >> louder if >> >> >> possible), which just creates more interference for other users and >> reduces the >> >> >> available airtime. >> >> >> >> >> >> I just finished the Scale conference in Pasadena, CA. We deployed ove= r >> 100 APs >> >> >> for the conference, up to 7 in a room, on the floor (so that the >> attendees >> >> >> bodies attenuate the signal) at low power so that the channels could = be >> re-used >> >> >> more readily. >> >> > >> >> > How did it go? You were deploying fq_codel on the wndr3800s there as >> >> > of a few years ago, and I remember you got rave reviews... (can you >> >> > repost the link to that old data/blog/podcast?) >> >> >> no good stats this year. still using the wndr3800s. Lots of people >> commenting on >> >> how well the network did, but we were a bit behind this year and didn't >> get good >> >> monitoring in place. No cake yet. >> >> >> I think this is what you mean >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DUXvGbEYeWp0 >> >> >> >> A point I would like to make for the africa contingent here is that >> you do not need the latest >> technology for africa. We get 300Mbit out of hardware built in the >> late 00s, like the wndr3800. The ath9k chipset is STILL manufactured, >> the software mature, and for all I know millions of routers >> like these are lying in junk bins worldwide, ready to be recycled and >> reflashed. >> >> One libreqos customer deployed libreqos, and took a look at the 600+ >> ubnt AGWs (ath9k based), on the shelf that could be fq_codeled, >> especially on the wifi... built a custom openwrt imagebuilder image >> for em, reflashed and redistributed them. >> >> The wndr3800s were especially well built. I would expect them to last >> decades. I had one failure of one that had been in the field for over >> 10 years... I thought it was the flash chip... no, it was the power >> supply! >> >> >> > Did you get any good stats? >> >> > >> >> > Run cake anywhere? >> >> >> >> >> >> in the cell phone world they discovered 'microcells' years ago, but >> with wifi >> >> >> too many people are still trying to cover the max area with the fewes= t >> possible >> >> >> number of radios. As Dan says, it just doesn't work. >> >> >> >> >> >> and on mesh radios, you need to not just use a different channel for >> your >> >> >> uplink, you need a different band to avoid desense on the connection = to >> your >> >> >> users. And that uplink is going to have the same hidden transmitter a= nd >> airtime >> >> >> problems competing with the other nodes also doing the uplink that it= 's >> >> >> scalability is very limited (even with directional antennas). >> Wire/fiber for the >> >> >> uplink is much better. >> >> >> >> >> >> David Lang >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, 15 Mar >> >> >> 2023, dan via Bloat wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> Trying to do all of what is currently wanted with 1 AP in a house is= a >> huge >> >> >>> part of the current problems with WiFi networks. MOAR power to try = to >> >> >>> overcome attenuation and reflections from walls so more power bleeds >> into >> >> >>> the next home/suite/apartment etc. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> In the MSP space it's been rapidly moving to an AP per room with >> >>> output >> >> >>> turned down to minimum. Doing this we can reused 5Ghz channels 50= ft >> away >> >> >>> (through 2 walls etc...) without interference. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> One issue with the RRH model is that to accomplish this 'light bulb' >> model, >> >> >>> ie you put a light bulb in the room you want light, is that it >> >>> requires >> >> >>> infrastructure cabling. 1 RRH AP in a house is already a failure >> today and >> >> >>> accounts for most access complaints. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> Mesh radios have provided a bit of a gap fill, getting the access SS= ID >> >> >>> closer to the device and backhauling on a separate channel with bett= er >> (and >> >> >>> likely fixed position ) antennas. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> regardless of my opinion on the full on failure of moving firewall o= ff >> prem >> >> >>> and the associated security risks and liabilities, single AP in a ho= me >> is >> >> >>> already a proven failure that has given rise to the mesh systems tha= t >> are >> >> >>> top sellers and top performers today. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> IMO, there was a scheme that gained a moment of fame and then died o= ut >> of >> >> >>> powerline networking and an AP per room off that powerline network. = I >> have >> >> >>> some of these deployed with mikrotik PLA adapters and the model work= s >> >> >>> fantastically, but the powerline networking has evolved slowly so I'= m >> >> >>> seeing ~200Mbps practical speeds, and the mikrotik units have 802.11= n >> >> >>> radios in them so also a bit of a struggle for modern speeds. This >> model, >> >> >>> with some development to get ~2.5Gbps practical speeds, and WiFi6 or >> WiFi7 >> >> >>> per room at very low output power, is a very practical and deployabl= e >> by >> >> >>> consumers setup. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> WiFi7 also solves some pieces of this with AP coordination and >> >> >>> co-transmission, sort of like a MUMIMO with multiple APs, and that's >> >>> in >> >> >>> early devices already (TPLINK just launched an AP). >> >> >>> >> >> >>> IMO, too many hurdles for RRH models from massive amounts of >> unfrastructure >> >> >>> to build, homes and appartment buildings that need re-wired, securit= y >> and >> >> >>> liability concerns of homes and business not being firewall isolated >> >>> by >> >> >>> stakeholders of those networks. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 11:32=E2=80=AFAM rjmcmahon >> wrote: >> >> >>> >> >> >>>> The 6G is a contiguous 1200MhZ. It has low power indoor (LPI) and >> >>>> very >> >> >>>> low power (VLP) modes. The pluggable transceiver could be color cod= ed >> to >> >> >>>> a chanspec, then the four color map problem can be used by installe= rs >> >> >>>> per those chanspecs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theor= em >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> There is no CTS with microwave "interference" The high-speed PHY >> >>>> rates >> >> >>>> combined with low-density AP/STA ratios, ideally 1/1, decrease the >> >> >>>> probability of time signal superpositions. The goal with wireless >> isn't >> >> >>>> high densities but to unleash humans. A bunch of humans stuck in a >> >>>> dog >> >> >>>> park isn't really being unleashed. It's the ability to move from >> >>>> block >> >> >>>> to block so-to-speak. FiWi is cheaper than sidewalks, sanitation >> >> >>>> systems, etc. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> The goal now is very low latency. Higher phy rates can achieve that >> and >> >> >>>> leave the medium free the vast most of the time and shut down the R= RH >> >> >>>> too. Engineering extra capacity by orders of magnitude is better th= an >> >> >>>> AQM. This has been the case in data centers for decades. Congestion= ? >> Add >> >> >>>> a zero (or multiple by 10) >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Note: None of this is done. This is a 5-10 year project with zero >> >> >>>> engineering resources assigned. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>>> Bob >> >> >>>>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 5:11=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon >> >> >>>>> wrote: >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>>> the AP needs to blast a CTS so every other possible conversation >> >>>>>> has >> >> >>>>>> to halt. >> >> >>>>> >> >> >>>>> The wireless network is not a bus. This still ignores the hidden >> >> >>>>> transmitter problem because there is a similar network in the next >> >> >>>>> room. >> >> >>>> >> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Bloat mailing list >> >> >> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> Rpm mailing list >> >> >> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net >> >> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Come Heckle Mar 6-9 at: https://www.understandinglatency.com/ >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> > > Much of the hardware dumped on the US market in particular is especially > poorly made. Ie, engineered for our disposable market. Lots of netgear > products for example have a typical usable life of just 2-3 years if that= , > and then the caps have busted or some patina on the boards has killed the= m. > > > I know Europe has some standards on this as well as South Korea to give > them longer life. To the point, it=E2=80=99s not realistic to recycle th= ese items > from the US to other place because they were =E2=80=98built to fail=E2=80= =99. > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Starlink Digest, Vol 24, Issue 37 > **************************************** >