Re: [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Rpm] On FiWi

Re: [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Rpm] On FiWi

[David Fernández]

"lorawan will never get built out across the planet"

Well, roughtly 10% of the globe is covered by cellular connectivity. I
would not expect lorawan to get built across the planet, although
there are IoT via satellite companies, such as Lacuna Space, using
lorawan.

In the map of the Lorawan Alliance website it is indicated that there
are Lorawan networks all around the world.

The main issue with Lorawan seems to be interferences, due to the use
of unlicensed spectrum. NB-IoT does not have that problem and then it
is also the work of the operator all the maintenance to keep the
connectivity running.

Regards,

David

> Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2023 13:40:30 -0700
> From: rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
> To: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>
> Cc: Bruce Perens <bruce@perens.com>, Dave Taht via Starlink
> 	<starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net>,
> 	Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>, bloat
> 	<bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>, libreqos
> 	<libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [LibreQoS]  [Rpm] On FiWi
> Message-ID: <569691b3e7dfc57bbf98c4fc168fc6cf@rjmcmahon.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
>
>   > All of the states use cases are already handled by inexpensive
> lorawan
>> sensors and are already covered by multiple lorawan networks in NYC
>> and most urban centers in the US.  There is no need for a new
>> infrastructure, it’s already there.  Not to mention NBIoT/catm
>> radios.
>>
>> This is all just general cheapness and lack of liability keeping these
>> out of widespread deployment. It’s not lack of tech on the market
>> today.
>
> What is the footprint of lorawan networks and what's the velocity of
> growth? What's the cost per square foot both capex and operations,
> maintaining & monitoring lorawan? What's that compared to the WiFi
> install base, i.e. now we have train even installers and maintainers on
> purpose built technology vs just use what most people know because it's
> common? This all looks like ethernet, token ring, fddi, netbios, decnet,
> etc. where the single approach of IP over WiFi/ethernet with fiber
> fronthaul wave guides and backhauls' waveguides per the ISP seems the
> effective way forward. I don't think it's in society's interest to have
> so disparate networks technologies as we have learned from IP and the
> internet. My guess is lorawan will never get built out across the planet
> as has been done for IP. I can tell that every country is adopting IP
> because they're using a free IP tool to measure their networks.
>
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/iperf2/files/stats/map?dates=2014-02-06%20to%202023-03-18&period=daily
>
> Bob

Re: [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Rpm] On FiWi

[Michael Richardson]

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{lots of lists on the CC}

The problem I have with lorawan is that it's too small for anything but the
smallest sensors.  When it breaks (due to infant death or just vanadalism)
who is going to notice enough to fix it?  My belief is that people won't
break things that they like/depend upon.  Or at least, that there will be
social pressure not to.

Better to have a protected 1Mb/s sensor lan within a 144Mb/s wifi than a
adjacent lorawan.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-                      *I*LIKE*TRAINS*




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Re: [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Rpm] On FiWi

[rjmcmahon]

  > All of the states use cases are already handled by inexpensive 
lorawan
> sensors and are already covered by multiple lorawan networks in NYC
> and most urban centers in the US.  There is no need for a new
> infrastructure, it’s already there.  Not to mention NBIoT/catm
> radios.
> 
> This is all just general cheapness and lack of liability keeping these
> out of widespread deployment. It’s not lack of tech on the market
> today.

What is the footprint of lorawan networks and what's the velocity of 
growth? What's the cost per square foot both capex and operations, 
maintaining & monitoring lorawan? What's that compared to the WiFi 
install base, i.e. now we have train even installers and maintainers on 
purpose built technology vs just use what most people know because it's 
common? This all looks like ethernet, token ring, fddi, netbios, decnet, 
etc. where the single approach of IP over WiFi/ethernet with fiber 
fronthaul wave guides and backhauls' waveguides per the ISP seems the 
effective way forward. I don't think it's in society's interest to have 
so disparate networks technologies as we have learned from IP and the 
internet. My guess is lorawan will never get built out across the planet 
as has been done for IP. I can tell that every country is adopting IP 
because they're using a free IP tool to measure their networks.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/iperf2/files/stats/map?dates=2014-02-06%20to%202023-03-18&period=daily

Bob

Re: [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Rpm] On FiWi

[dan]

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On Sat, Mar 18, 2023 at 12:18 PM rjmcmahon via LibreQoS <
libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> >> I'm curious as to why the detectors have to be replaced every 10
> >> years.
> >
> > Dust, grease from cooking oil vapors, insects, mold, etc. accumulate,
> > and it's so expensive to clean those little sensors, and there is so
> > much liability associated with them, that it's cheaper to replace the
> > head every 10 years. Electrolytic capacitors have a limited lifetime
> > and that is also a good reason to replace the device.
> >
> > The basic sensor architecture is photoelectric, the older ones used an
> > americium pelllet that detected gas ionization which was changed by
> > the presence of smoke. The half-life on the americium ones is at least
> > 400 years (there is more than one isotope, that's the shortest-life
> > one).
>
> Thanks for this. That makes sense. I do think the FiWi transceivers &
> sensors need to be pluggable & detect failures, particularly early on
> due to infant mortality.
>
> "Infant mortality is a special equipment failure mode that shows the
> probability of failure being highest when the equipment is first
> started, but reduces as time goes on. Eventually, the probability of
> failure levels off after time."
>
>
> https://www.upkeep.com/blog/infant-mortality-equipment-failure#:~:text=Infant%20mortality%20is%20a%20special,failure%20levels%20off%20after%20time
> .
>
> Also curious about thermal imaging inside a building - what sensor tech
> to use and at what cost? The Bronx fire occurred because poor people in
> public housing don't have access to electric heat pumps & used a space
> heater instead. It's very sad we as a society do this, i.e. make sure
> rich people can drive Teslas with heat pumps but only provide the worst
> type of heating to children from families that aren't so fortunate.
>
>
> https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/10/us/nyc-bronx-apartment-fire-monday/index.html
>
> "A malfunctioning electric space heater in a bedroom was the source of
> an apartment building fire Sunday in the Bronx that killed 17 people,
> including 8 children, making it one of the worst fires in the city’s
> history, New York Mayor Eric Adams said Monday."
>
> Bob
> _______________________________________________
> LibreQoS mailing list
> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos
>
All of the states use cases are already handled by inexpensive lorawan
sensors and are already covered by multiple lorawan networks in NYC and
most urban centers in the US.  There is no need for a new infrastructure,
it’s already there.  Not to mention NBIoT/catm radios.

This is all just general cheapness and lack of liability keeping these out
of widespread deployment. It’s not lack of tech on the market today.

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