From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oa1-x2d.google.com (mail-oa1-x2d.google.com [IPv6:2001:4860:4864:20::2d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4F693CB37 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 10:11:54 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oa1-x2d.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-176b90e14a9so17433706fac.9 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 07:11:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1678803114; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wM9mZcY33zDjrm9XfPdJiJ32WKjwrX9jgRtE8f7pqBA=; b=KjhbNYkutPlnrVRQsr80ZohTDU5mHFM28Fq1fg/D7L6y6BCneqygxp1yE4Nlt1Vgnh 18HzfAkVUJfw9szFvTug0LV4pfTLCNAtcb5wEKpYlEV/EUQwyZ0NypgiJIu6GvrASpK9 i+nVM1adraqO35vpk0MT9Zk0cAFICLfV7/mPw5m9Sq0SE2QxHITLq4SHsWWxm5h/VH8M C4ueOMclBdzvlTj1rthm/Dm0rj2FA7d66nfqgOxLV6EWmunp5R0fMwi7EW9cKaKhLH/D 9iLefwsdKjnnt/ORz78RvWHUooHg4otpt0LqHfSH3gveYKLOdlkRy4Z9K7TfT+bpdL79 y9yA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678803114; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=wM9mZcY33zDjrm9XfPdJiJ32WKjwrX9jgRtE8f7pqBA=; b=GrF5bn9V6dZpOce4uIgMYvu09KeJnVJcHv/LbeTe8dhfYwhxLo+x6c6CTURV0dp4rN UBy/IBTmmlSXG3qY+Y5aglgVLeooAnnc7t3+gXhqY9/xxOX2exE4Jdh/wPzUdyfhntfq uQFGQx9LU4unbyU8kMxI04g4uvrD44750SAIihy5Nxv+x6o/W6cXe4X7fqMZ+WvEhCEn qAy80zaPyYG6BiQMw0nzlrAXTaiVvdTQdzQbMIme78a2Tn9kTq1hQhXwX64KVl4TFrUr w77PLIhSk79hzx6RGYlVsy3Ow6oiM2a3U8wImLOkhlW7uAq9KTdoJjFrrFcUnQ0qla9+ SXjA== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXob5aoM4IXlo9tFN7fhX/T1VJMGRFB0OY1RySS/RZJlhrEs36o oEZtbp6/PENoBuvV3OcIs194Y6/1tPuP1m+NeCJfcjCHwrs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set9DEEvEahbV5YBp71fuCEvQIG4IeFFFjK/hXXFQeUXtVbIqYnoeeSHvvo3f2U0XCyZxRiBQorcNdJEP0OojDaQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:1399:b0:177:adf6:4fa1 with SMTP id 25-20020a056870139900b00177adf64fa1mr2757731oas.1.1678803113812; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 07:11:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6359:a82:b0:104:67b2:1e1a with HTTP; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 07:11:53 -0700 (PDT) From: =?UTF-8?Q?David_Fern=C3=A1ndez?= Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 15:11:53 +0100 Message-ID: To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [Starlink] On FiWi X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 14:11:55 -0000 Hi Bob, If you want that FiWi infrastructure on buildings, I am afraid that you only get it (in the long term) with a law that makes it mandatory to make new buildings with that infrastructure for communications. In Spain, it should be added to this: https://avancedigital.mineco.gob.es/Infraestructuras/Paginas/Index.aspx Regards, David > Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 21:27:23 -0700 > From: rjmcmahon > To: Sebastian Moeller > Cc: dan , Jeremy Austin , Rpm > , libreqos > , Dave Taht via Starlink > , bloat > Subject: [Starlink] On FiWi > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed > > To change the topic - curious to thoughts on FiWi. > > Imagine a world with no copper cable called FiWi (Fiber,VCSEL/CMOS > Radios, Antennas) and which is point to point inside a building > connected to virtualized APs fiber hops away. Each remote radio head > (RRH) would consume 5W or less and only when active. No need for things > like zigbee, or meshes, or threads as each radio has a fiber connection > via Corning's actifi or equivalent. Eliminate the AP/Client power > imbalance. Plastics also can house smoke or other sensors. > > Some reminders from Paul Baran in 1994 (and from David Reed) > > o) Shorter range rf transceivers connected to fiber could produce a > significant improvement - - tremendous improvement, really. > o) a mixture of terrestrial links plus shorter range radio links has the > effect of increasing by orders and orders of magnitude the amount of > frequency spectrum that can be made available. > o) By authorizing high power to support a few users to reach slightly > longer distances we deprive ourselves of the opportunity to serve the > many. > o) Communications systems can be built with 10dB ratio > o) Digital transmission when properly done allows a small signal to > noise ratio to be used successfully to retrieve an error free signal. > o) And, never forget, any transmission capacity not used is wasted > forever, like water over the dam. Not using such techniques represent > lost opportunity. > > And on waveguides: > > o) "Fiber transmission loss is ~0.5dB/km for single mode fiber, > independent of modulation" > o) =E2=80=9CCopper cables and PCB traces are very frequency dependent. A= t > 100Gb/s, the loss is in dB/inch." > o) "Free space: the power density of the radio waves decreases with the > square of distance from the transmitting antenna due to spreading of the > electromagnetic energy in space according to the inverse square law" > > The sunk costs & long-lived parts of FiWi are the fiber and the CPE > plastics & antennas, as CMOS radios+ & fiber/laser, e.g. VCSEL could be > pluggable, allowing for field upgrades. Just like swapping out SFP in a > data center. > > This approach basically drives out WiFi latency by eliminating shared > queues and increases capacity by orders of magnitude by leveraging 10dB > in the spatial dimension, all of which is achieved by a physical design. > Just place enough RRHs as needed (similar to a pop up sprinkler in an > irrigation system.) > > Start and build this for an MDU and the value of the building improves. > Sadly, there seems no way to capture that value other than over long > term use. It doesn't matter whether the leader of the HOA tries to > capture the value or if a last mile provider tries. The value remains > sunk or hidden with nothing on the asset side of the balance sheet. > We've got a CAPEX spend that has to be made up via "OPEX returns" over > years. > > But the asset is there. > > How do we do this? > > Bob >