Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

["David Fernández" <davidfdzp@gmail.com>]

>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>> communications infrastructure as life support critical.

5G has MCx. Fire alarms should be an MCx application of 5G.

x does stand for several mission critical (mc) services like PTT (push
to talk, meaning voice), data, video and other services.

Regards,

David

> Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 12:34:11 +0200
> From: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>
> To: rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
> Cc: Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net>, dan <dandenson@gmail.com>,
> 	Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>, brandon@rd.bbc.co.uk,
> 	libreqos <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>, Dave Taht via Starlink
> 	<starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure
> 	w/Comcast chat
> Message-ID: <6EB62755-EF23-44BA-B2FF-66FAC708653D@gmx.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=us-ascii
>
> Hi Bob,
>
>
>> On Mar 25, 2023, at 21:43, rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
>>
>> It's not just one phone call. I've been figuring this out for about two
>> years now. I've been working with some strategic people in Boston, colos &
>> dark fiber providers, and professional installers that wired up many of
>> the Boston universities, some universities themselves to offer co-ops to
>> students to run networsk, trainings for DIC and other high value IoT
>> offerings, blue collar principals (with staffs of about 100) to help them
>> learn to install fiber and provide better jobs for their employees.
>>
>> My conclusion is that Comcast is best suited for the job as the broadband
>> provider, at least in Boston, for multiple reasons. One chat isn't going
>> to block me ;)
>
> 	Yes, but they clearly are not the party best selected to to the internal
> wiring... this is a question of incentives and cost... if you pay their
> technicians by the hour to do the internal wiring according to your plan
> (assuming that they would accept that) then your goals are aligned, if the
> cost of the installation is to be carried by the ISP, they likely are
> motivated to the the kind of job I saw in California*.
> 	Over here the situation is slightly different, in-house cabling from the
> first demarking socket (which is considered to be ISP owned) is clearly the
> responsibility of the owner/resident not the ISP. ISPs offer to route
> cables, but on a per-hour basis, or for MDUs often used to make contracts
> with the owner that they would build the internal wiring (in an agreed upon
> fashion) for the right to be sole provider of e.g. cable TV services (with
> the cable fees mandatorily folded into the rent) for a fixed multi-year
> period (10-15 IIRC), after that the plant would end-up property of the
> building owner. Recent changes in law made the "mandatory cable fees as part
> of the rent" much harder/impossible, turning the in-house wiring back into
> an owner/resident problem.
>
>
>>
>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>> communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>
> 	Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water (fresh and
> waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is mostly not critical
> yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in that direction, so it is
> time to look at that from a different perspective.
> 	Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into communal
> hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other critical
> infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP fiber access
> network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable way to allow ISPs to
> compete in the internet service field all the while using the communally
> build access network for a few. IIRC this is how Amsterdam organized its
> FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has beed essentially unchanged for
> decades, I estimate that current fiber access lines would also last for
> decades requiring no active component changes in the field, making them
> candidates for communal management. (With all my love for communal ownership
> and maintenance, these typically are not very nimble and hence best when we
> talk about life times of decades).
>
>
>> It reminds me of Elon Musk and his claims on FSD.
>
> 	;) I had to look up FSD, I guess full self driving (aka pie-in-the-sky)?
>
>
>> I could do the whole thing myself - but that's not going to achieve what's
>> needed. We need systems that our loved ones can call and those systems
>> will care for them. Similar to how the medical community works, though
>> imperfect, in caring for our loved one's and their healths.
>
> 	I think I get your point. The question is how do we get from where we are
> now to that place your are describing here and in the FiWi concept?
>
>
>> I think we all are responsible for changing our belief sets & developing
>> ourselves to better serve others. Most won't act until they can actually
>> see what's possible. So let's start to show them.
>
> 	Sure, having real implemented examples always helps!
>
> Regards
> 	Sebastian
>
>
>>
>> Bob
>
>
> P.S.: Bruce's point about placing ducts/conduits seems like to only way to
> gain some future-proofeness. For multi-story and/or multi-dweller units this
> introduces the question how to stop fire using these conduits to "jump"
> between levels, but I assume that is a solved problem already, and can be
> squelches with throwing money in its direction.
>
>
>
> *)A IIRC charter technician routing coaxial cable on the outside of the two
> story building and drilling through the (wooden) wall to set the cable
> socket inside, all the while casually cutting the Dish coaxial cable that
> was still connected to a satellite dish... Not that I cared, we were using
> ADSL at the time, and in accordance with the old "when in Rome..." rule, I
> bridged over the deteriorated in-house phone wiring by running a 30m Cat5
> cable on the outside of the building to the first hand-over box.
>
>
>>
>>> Hi Bob,
>>> somewhat sad. Have you considered that your described requirements and
>>> the use-case might be outside of the mass-market envelope for which
>>> the big ISPs taylor/rig their processes? Maybe, not sure that is an
>>> option, if you approach this as a "business"* asking for a fiber
>>> uplink for an already "wired" 5 unit property you might get better
>>> service? You still would need to do the in-house re-wiring, but you
>>> likely would avoid scripted hot-lines that hang up when in the
>>> allotted time the agent sees little chance of "closing" the call. All
>>> (big) ISPs I know treat hotline as a cost factor and not as the first
>>> line of customer retention...
>>> I would also not be amazed if Boston had smaller ISPs that are willing
>>> and able to listen to customers (but that might be a bit more
>>> expensive than the big ISPs).
>>> That or try to get your foot into Comcast's PR department to sell them
>>> on the "reference installation" for all Boston historic buildings, so
>>> they can offset the custom tailoring effort with the expected good
>>> press of doing the "right thing" publicly.
>>> Good luck
>>> 	Sebastian
>>> *) I understand you are not, but I assume the business units to have
>>> more leeway to actually offer more bespoke solutions than the likely
>>> cost-optimized to Mars and back residental customer unit.
>>>> On Mar 25, 2023, at 20:39, rjmcmahon via Bloat
>>>> <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> I've been trying to modernize a building in Boston where I'm an HOA
>>>> board member over the last 18 mos. I perceive the broadband network as a
>>>> critical infrastructure to our 5 unit building.
>>>> Unfortunately, Comcast staff doesn't seem to agree. The agent basically
>>>> closed the chat on me mid-stream (chat attached.) I've been at this for
>>>> about 18 mos now.
>>>> While I think bufferbloat is a big issue, the bigger issue is that our
>>>> last-mile providers must change their cultures to understand that life
>>>> support use cases that require proper pathways, conduits & cabling can
>>>> no longer be ignored. These buildings have coaxial thrown over the
>>>> exterior walls done in the 80s then drilling holes without consideration
>>>> of structures. This and the lack of environmental protections for our
>>>> HOA's critical infrastructure is disheartening. It's past time to remove
>>>> this shoddy work on our building and all buildings in Boston as well as
>>>> across the globe.
>>>> My hope was by now I'd have shown through actions what a historic
>>>> building in Boston looks like when we, as humans in our short lives, act
>>>> as both stewards of history and as responsible guardians to those that
>>>> share living spaces and neighborhoods today & tomorrow. Motivating
>>>> humans to better serve one another is hard.
>>>> Bob<comcast.pdf>_______________________________________________
>>>> Bloat mailing list
>>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat