From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oa1-x2b.google.com (mail-oa1-x2b.google.com [IPv6:2001:4860:4864:20::2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6B5AF3CB37 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2023 04:45:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oa1-x2b.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-177ca271cb8so8469987fac.2 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2023 01:45:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1679906710; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=9HBxrPov/INhhJC+nn4FMWOUJXHnt12RNhp2yodiV3s=; b=NKWT3dnWng0f7GzqYFWKf4jXPprF+rlqOAtrJfanAc8URlFNq3iDekbar2YxAAfeZS Q2f/WIGg3Y0RYwWju7kZzlG8jr2wD22u2/GG06vOttKa2x3xX7M2w1Wd/y8hV8aelH0Q gqMV0KgB+bD7n+RM3hPYEB4PMBZ73mQkA60DCY0ECyastAQfNKAD93VwnjclGE42VhAb 68SL8XhIbbDTtfwSqUU1q4B+sKZsLnhtKsNzRfphPShQrpAAR0nmrkO0EmIONYUf4KEB BOhDzlMWOnTGMsFyVV/QJkWD86AfQ/pzJSI87ucDIhOkIEdI1o9b10cjtE3SXK7arndd iUIQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1679906710; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=9HBxrPov/INhhJC+nn4FMWOUJXHnt12RNhp2yodiV3s=; b=5z+KQx5miA2zdprqLd8ghP6CCVwV776aj/dJYUEZACo+KQcKijsGRaj3QM3Q+V7ieX /oPEmApYiuCnmaD+lJnuJkwke7MBqcE/Q3i7113pA5K7MFA3XZsFJ6VLUy1omc26BItl oXVZzrJjTC5Rf4stqQeyW+3oyLjXYZAqk11ZZVxRS7r+FaNtfVE5xk6NaCNKy0izrK58 QQajEG+eabnxunPSR8yr85uJmYHR6WndXXhmejHv/JR0PN4mFtyL3lDPRVuzn2dkiPPN /n1Itn8r+XfEF0hF5rkCfznR2Lzj0uBDMW4cqq+euorbntlXcUOWv2lNJVY+5ZwNYPMl BoLg== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9c/p8bHzEpKsTaGmVxCu9b6qD1RqtUjvFJrZn8reKTnrsm5Wguz 2E87EDWvf05wGqRAfBmj46tEgL9VDwZDokfUPhxkJN1/9NE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350YkYbLIOdzRJbsKXZJlqxQzCfRXYwr/YCkgs0z7uNnuKRvNeztpMJy3a755f1zz5ME3gtlLG0+0v8yqNgrqEsc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6870:1294:b0:17a:b31c:9e1e with SMTP id 20-20020a056870129400b0017ab31c9e1emr3452439oal.1.1679906710324; Mon, 27 Mar 2023 01:45:10 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6358:108a:b0:112:aa6f:321f with HTTP; Mon, 27 Mar 2023 01:45:09 -0700 (PDT) From: =?UTF-8?Q?David_Fern=C3=A1ndez?= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 10:45:09 +0200 Message-ID: To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2023 08:45:11 -0000 >> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital >> communications infrastructure as life support critical. 5G has MCx. Fire alarms should be an MCx application of 5G. x does stand for several mission critical (mc) services like PTT (push to talk, meaning voice), data, video and other services. Regards, David > Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 12:34:11 +0200 > From: Sebastian Moeller > To: rjmcmahon > Cc: Rpm , dan , > Frantisek Borsik , brandon@rd.bbc.co.uk, > libreqos , Dave Taht via Starlink > , bloat > Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure > w/Comcast chat > Message-ID: <6EB62755-EF23-44BA-B2FF-66FAC708653D@gmx.de> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Hi Bob, > > >> On Mar 25, 2023, at 21:43, rjmcmahon wrote: >> >> It's not just one phone call. I've been figuring this out for about two >> years now. I've been working with some strategic people in Boston, colos & >> dark fiber providers, and professional installers that wired up many of >> the Boston universities, some universities themselves to offer co-ops to >> students to run networsk, trainings for DIC and other high value IoT >> offerings, blue collar principals (with staffs of about 100) to help them >> learn to install fiber and provide better jobs for their employees. >> >> My conclusion is that Comcast is best suited for the job as the broadband >> provider, at least in Boston, for multiple reasons. One chat isn't going >> to block me ;) > > Yes, but they clearly are not the party best selected to to the internal > wiring... this is a question of incentives and cost... if you pay their > technicians by the hour to do the internal wiring according to your plan > (assuming that they would accept that) then your goals are aligned, if the > cost of the installation is to be carried by the ISP, they likely are > motivated to the the kind of job I saw in California*. > Over here the situation is slightly different, in-house cabling from the > first demarking socket (which is considered to be ISP owned) is clearly the > responsibility of the owner/resident not the ISP. ISPs offer to route > cables, but on a per-hour basis, or for MDUs often used to make contracts > with the owner that they would build the internal wiring (in an agreed upon > fashion) for the right to be sole provider of e.g. cable TV services (with > the cable fees mandatorily folded into the rent) for a fixed multi-year > period (10-15 IIRC), after that the plant would end-up property of the > building owner. Recent changes in law made the "mandatory cable fees as part > of the rent" much harder/impossible, turning the in-house wiring back into > an owner/resident problem. > > >> >> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital >> communications infrastructure as life support critical. > > Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water (fresh and > waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is mostly not critical > yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in that direction, so it is > time to look at that from a different perspective. > Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into communal > hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other critical > infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP fiber access > network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable way to allow ISPs to > compete in the internet service field all the while using the communally > build access network for a few. IIRC this is how Amsterdam organized its > FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has beed essentially unchanged for > decades, I estimate that current fiber access lines would also last for > decades requiring no active component changes in the field, making them > candidates for communal management. (With all my love for communal ownership > and maintenance, these typically are not very nimble and hence best when we > talk about life times of decades). > > >> It reminds me of Elon Musk and his claims on FSD. > > ;) I had to look up FSD, I guess full self driving (aka pie-in-the-sky)? > > >> I could do the whole thing myself - but that's not going to achieve what's >> needed. We need systems that our loved ones can call and those systems >> will care for them. Similar to how the medical community works, though >> imperfect, in caring for our loved one's and their healths. > > I think I get your point. The question is how do we get from where we are > now to that place your are describing here and in the FiWi concept? > > >> I think we all are responsible for changing our belief sets & developing >> ourselves to better serve others. Most won't act until they can actually >> see what's possible. So let's start to show them. > > Sure, having real implemented examples always helps! > > Regards > Sebastian > > >> >> Bob > > > P.S.: Bruce's point about placing ducts/conduits seems like to only way to > gain some future-proofeness. For multi-story and/or multi-dweller units this > introduces the question how to stop fire using these conduits to "jump" > between levels, but I assume that is a solved problem already, and can be > squelches with throwing money in its direction. > > > > *)A IIRC charter technician routing coaxial cable on the outside of the two > story building and drilling through the (wooden) wall to set the cable > socket inside, all the while casually cutting the Dish coaxial cable that > was still connected to a satellite dish... Not that I cared, we were using > ADSL at the time, and in accordance with the old "when in Rome..." rule, I > bridged over the deteriorated in-house phone wiring by running a 30m Cat5 > cable on the outside of the building to the first hand-over box. > > >> >>> Hi Bob, >>> somewhat sad. Have you considered that your described requirements and >>> the use-case might be outside of the mass-market envelope for which >>> the big ISPs taylor/rig their processes? Maybe, not sure that is an >>> option, if you approach this as a "business"* asking for a fiber >>> uplink for an already "wired" 5 unit property you might get better >>> service? You still would need to do the in-house re-wiring, but you >>> likely would avoid scripted hot-lines that hang up when in the >>> allotted time the agent sees little chance of "closing" the call. All >>> (big) ISPs I know treat hotline as a cost factor and not as the first >>> line of customer retention... >>> I would also not be amazed if Boston had smaller ISPs that are willing >>> and able to listen to customers (but that might be a bit more >>> expensive than the big ISPs). >>> That or try to get your foot into Comcast's PR department to sell them >>> on the "reference installation" for all Boston historic buildings, so >>> they can offset the custom tailoring effort with the expected good >>> press of doing the "right thing" publicly. >>> Good luck >>> Sebastian >>> *) I understand you are not, but I assume the business units to have >>> more leeway to actually offer more bespoke solutions than the likely >>> cost-optimized to Mars and back residental customer unit. >>>> On Mar 25, 2023, at 20:39, rjmcmahon via Bloat >>>> wrote: >>>> Hi All, >>>> I've been trying to modernize a building in Boston where I'm an HOA >>>> board member over the last 18 mos. I perceive the broadband network as a >>>> critical infrastructure to our 5 unit building. >>>> Unfortunately, Comcast staff doesn't seem to agree. The agent basically >>>> closed the chat on me mid-stream (chat attached.) I've been at this for >>>> about 18 mos now. >>>> While I think bufferbloat is a big issue, the bigger issue is that our >>>> last-mile providers must change their cultures to understand that life >>>> support use cases that require proper pathways, conduits & cabling can >>>> no longer be ignored. These buildings have coaxial thrown over the >>>> exterior walls done in the 80s then drilling holes without consideration >>>> of structures. This and the lack of environmental protections for our >>>> HOA's critical infrastructure is disheartening. It's past time to remove >>>> this shoddy work on our building and all buildings in Boston as well as >>>> across the globe. >>>> My hope was by now I'd have shown through actions what a historic >>>> building in Boston looks like when we, as humans in our short lives, act >>>> as both stewards of history and as responsible guardians to those that >>>> share living spaces and neighborhoods today & tomorrow. Motivating >>>> humans to better serve one another is hard. >>>> Bob_______________________________________________ >>>> Bloat mailing list >>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat