Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[David Fernández]

>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>> communications infrastructure as life support critical.

5G has MCx. Fire alarms should be an MCx application of 5G.

x does stand for several mission critical (mc) services like PTT (push
to talk, meaning voice), data, video and other services.

Regards,

David

> Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 12:34:11 +0200
> From: Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>
> To: rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
> Cc: Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net>, dan <dandenson@gmail.com>,
> 	Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>, brandon@rd.bbc.co.uk,
> 	libreqos <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>, Dave Taht via Starlink
> 	<starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure
> 	w/Comcast chat
> Message-ID: <6EB62755-EF23-44BA-B2FF-66FAC708653D@gmx.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain;	charset=us-ascii
>
> Hi Bob,
>
>
>> On Mar 25, 2023, at 21:43, rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
>>
>> It's not just one phone call. I've been figuring this out for about two
>> years now. I've been working with some strategic people in Boston, colos &
>> dark fiber providers, and professional installers that wired up many of
>> the Boston universities, some universities themselves to offer co-ops to
>> students to run networsk, trainings for DIC and other high value IoT
>> offerings, blue collar principals (with staffs of about 100) to help them
>> learn to install fiber and provide better jobs for their employees.
>>
>> My conclusion is that Comcast is best suited for the job as the broadband
>> provider, at least in Boston, for multiple reasons. One chat isn't going
>> to block me ;)
>
> 	Yes, but they clearly are not the party best selected to to the internal
> wiring... this is a question of incentives and cost... if you pay their
> technicians by the hour to do the internal wiring according to your plan
> (assuming that they would accept that) then your goals are aligned, if the
> cost of the installation is to be carried by the ISP, they likely are
> motivated to the the kind of job I saw in California*.
> 	Over here the situation is slightly different, in-house cabling from the
> first demarking socket (which is considered to be ISP owned) is clearly the
> responsibility of the owner/resident not the ISP. ISPs offer to route
> cables, but on a per-hour basis, or for MDUs often used to make contracts
> with the owner that they would build the internal wiring (in an agreed upon
> fashion) for the right to be sole provider of e.g. cable TV services (with
> the cable fees mandatorily folded into the rent) for a fixed multi-year
> period (10-15 IIRC), after that the plant would end-up property of the
> building owner. Recent changes in law made the "mandatory cable fees as part
> of the rent" much harder/impossible, turning the in-house wiring back into
> an owner/resident problem.
>
>
>>
>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>> communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>
> 	Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water (fresh and
> waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is mostly not critical
> yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in that direction, so it is
> time to look at that from a different perspective.
> 	Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into communal
> hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other critical
> infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP fiber access
> network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable way to allow ISPs to
> compete in the internet service field all the while using the communally
> build access network for a few. IIRC this is how Amsterdam organized its
> FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has beed essentially unchanged for
> decades, I estimate that current fiber access lines would also last for
> decades requiring no active component changes in the field, making them
> candidates for communal management. (With all my love for communal ownership
> and maintenance, these typically are not very nimble and hence best when we
> talk about life times of decades).
>
>
>> It reminds me of Elon Musk and his claims on FSD.
>
> 	;) I had to look up FSD, I guess full self driving (aka pie-in-the-sky)?
>
>
>> I could do the whole thing myself - but that's not going to achieve what's
>> needed. We need systems that our loved ones can call and those systems
>> will care for them. Similar to how the medical community works, though
>> imperfect, in caring for our loved one's and their healths.
>
> 	I think I get your point. The question is how do we get from where we are
> now to that place your are describing here and in the FiWi concept?
>
>
>> I think we all are responsible for changing our belief sets & developing
>> ourselves to better serve others. Most won't act until they can actually
>> see what's possible. So let's start to show them.
>
> 	Sure, having real implemented examples always helps!
>
> Regards
> 	Sebastian
>
>
>>
>> Bob
>
>
> P.S.: Bruce's point about placing ducts/conduits seems like to only way to
> gain some future-proofeness. For multi-story and/or multi-dweller units this
> introduces the question how to stop fire using these conduits to "jump"
> between levels, but I assume that is a solved problem already, and can be
> squelches with throwing money in its direction.
>
>
>
> *)A IIRC charter technician routing coaxial cable on the outside of the two
> story building and drilling through the (wooden) wall to set the cable
> socket inside, all the while casually cutting the Dish coaxial cable that
> was still connected to a satellite dish... Not that I cared, we were using
> ADSL at the time, and in accordance with the old "when in Rome..." rule, I
> bridged over the deteriorated in-house phone wiring by running a 30m Cat5
> cable on the outside of the building to the first hand-over box.
>
>
>>
>>> Hi Bob,
>>> somewhat sad. Have you considered that your described requirements and
>>> the use-case might be outside of the mass-market envelope for which
>>> the big ISPs taylor/rig their processes? Maybe, not sure that is an
>>> option, if you approach this as a "business"* asking for a fiber
>>> uplink for an already "wired" 5 unit property you might get better
>>> service? You still would need to do the in-house re-wiring, but you
>>> likely would avoid scripted hot-lines that hang up when in the
>>> allotted time the agent sees little chance of "closing" the call. All
>>> (big) ISPs I know treat hotline as a cost factor and not as the first
>>> line of customer retention...
>>> I would also not be amazed if Boston had smaller ISPs that are willing
>>> and able to listen to customers (but that might be a bit more
>>> expensive than the big ISPs).
>>> That or try to get your foot into Comcast's PR department to sell them
>>> on the "reference installation" for all Boston historic buildings, so
>>> they can offset the custom tailoring effort with the expected good
>>> press of doing the "right thing" publicly.
>>> Good luck
>>> 	Sebastian
>>> *) I understand you are not, but I assume the business units to have
>>> more leeway to actually offer more bespoke solutions than the likely
>>> cost-optimized to Mars and back residental customer unit.
>>>> On Mar 25, 2023, at 20:39, rjmcmahon via Bloat
>>>> <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> I've been trying to modernize a building in Boston where I'm an HOA
>>>> board member over the last 18 mos. I perceive the broadband network as a
>>>> critical infrastructure to our 5 unit building.
>>>> Unfortunately, Comcast staff doesn't seem to agree. The agent basically
>>>> closed the chat on me mid-stream (chat attached.) I've been at this for
>>>> about 18 mos now.
>>>> While I think bufferbloat is a big issue, the bigger issue is that our
>>>> last-mile providers must change their cultures to understand that life
>>>> support use cases that require proper pathways, conduits & cabling can
>>>> no longer be ignored. These buildings have coaxial thrown over the
>>>> exterior walls done in the 80s then drilling holes without consideration
>>>> of structures. This and the lack of environmental protections for our
>>>> HOA's critical infrastructure is disheartening. It's past time to remove
>>>> this shoddy work on our building and all buildings in Boston as well as
>>>> across the globe.
>>>> My hope was by now I'd have shown through actions what a historic
>>>> building in Boston looks like when we, as humans in our short lives, act
>>>> as both stewards of history and as responsible guardians to those that
>>>> share living spaces and neighborhoods today & tomorrow. Motivating
>>>> humans to better serve one another is hard.
>>>> Bob<comcast.pdf>_______________________________________________
>>>> Bloat mailing list
>>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] On FiWi

[rjmcmahon]

I think the low-power transceiver (or RRH) and fiber fronthaul is doable 
within the next 5 years. The difficult part to me seems the virtual APs 
that could service 12-256 RRHs including security monitoring & customer 
privacy.

Is there a VMWARE NSX approach to reducing the O&M costs by at least 1/2 
for the FiWi head end systems?

For power: My approach to the Boston historic neighborhood where my kids 
now live would be AC wired CPE treated as critical, life support 
infrastructure. But better may be to do as modern garage door openers 
and have standard AC charge a battery so one can operate even during 
power outages.

https://www.rsandrews.com/blog/hardwired-battery-powered-smoke-alarms-you/

Our Recommendation: Hardwired Smoke Alarms
Hardwired smoke alarms, while they require slightly more work upfront, 
are the clear choice if you’re considering replacing your home’s smoke 
alarm system. You’ll hardly ever have to deal with the annoying 
“chirping” that occurs when a battery-powered smoke detector begins to 
go dead, and your entire family will be alerted in the event that a fire 
does occur since hardwire smoke detectors can be interconnected.

Bob
> Hi Dave,
> 
> 
> 
>> On Mar 17, 2023, at 17:38, Dave Taht via Starlink 
>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> 
>> This is a pretty neat box:
>> 
>> https://mikrotik.com/product/netpower_lite_7r
>> 
>> What are the compelling arguments for fiber vs copper, again?
> 
> 	As far as I can tell:
> 
> Copper:
> 	can carry electric power
> 
> Fiber-PON:
> 	much farther reach even without amplifiers (10 Km, 20 Km, ...
> depending on loss budget)
> 	cheaper operation (less active power needed by the headend/OLT)
> 	less space need than all active alternatives (AON, copper ethernet)
> 	likely only robust passive components in the field
> 	Existing upgrade path for 25G and 50G is on the horizon over the same
> PON infrastructure
> 	mostly resistant to RF ingress along the path (as long as a direct
> lightning hit does not melt the glas ;) )
> 
> Fiber-Ethernet:
> 	like fiber-PON but
> 	no density advantage (needs 1 port per end device)
> 	even wider upgrade paths
> 
> 
> I guess it really depends on how important "carry electric power" is
> to you ;) feeding these from the client side is pretty cool for
> consenting adults, but I would prefer not having to pay the electric
> bill for my ISPs active gear in the field outside the CPE/ONT...
> 
> Regards
> 	Sebastian
> 
> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 4:10 AM Mike Puchol via Rpm 
>> <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> Hi Bob,
>> 
>> You hit on a set of very valid points, which I'll complement with my 
>> views on where the industry (the bit of it that affects WISPs) is 
>> heading, and what I saw at the MWC in Barcelona. Love the FiWi term 
>> :-)
>> 
>> I have seen the vendors that supply WISPs, such as Ubiquiti, Cambium, 
>> and Mimosa, but also newer entrants such as Tarana, increase the 
>> performance and on-paper specs of their equipment. My examples below 
>> are centered on the African market, if you operate in Europe or the 
>> US, where you can charge customers a higher install fee, or even 
>> charge them a break-up fee if they don't return equipment, the 
>> economics work.
>> 
>> Where currently a ~$500 sector radio could serve ~60 endpoints, at a 
>> cost of ~$50 per endpoint (I use this term in place of ODU/CPE, the 
>> antenna that you mount on the roof), and supply ~2.5 Mbps CIR per 
>> endpoint, the evolution is now a ~$2,000+ sector radio, a $200 
>> endpoint, capability for ~150 endpoints per sector, and ~25 Mbps CIR 
>> per endpoint.
>> 
>> If every customer a WISP installs represents, say, $100 CAPEX at 
>> install time ($50 for the antenna + cabling, router, etc), and you 
>> charge a $30 install fee, you have $70 to recover, and you recover 
>> from the monthly contribution the customer makes. If the contribution 
>> after OPEX is, say, $10, it takes you 7 months to recover the full 
>> install cost. Not bad, doable even in low-income markets.
>> 
>> Fast-forward to the next-generation version. Now, the CAPEX at install 
>> is $250, you need to recover $220, and it will take you 22 months, 
>> which is above the usual 18 months that investors look for.
>> 
>> The focus, thereby, has to be the lever that has the largest effect on 
>> the unit economics - which is the per-customer cost. I have drawn what 
>> my ideal FiWi network would look like:
>> 
>> 
>> <Hybrid EPON-Wireless network.png>
>> Taking you through this - we start with a 1-port, low-cost EPON OLT 
>> (or you could go for 2, 4, 8 ports as you add capacity). This OLT has 
>> capacity for 64 ONUs on its single port. Instead of connecting the 
>> typical fiber infrastructure with kilometers of cables which break, 
>> require maintenance, etc. we insert an EPON to Ethernet converter (I 
>> added "magic" because these don't exist AFAIK).
>> 
>> This converter allows us to connect our $2k sector radio, and serve 
>> the $200 endpoints (ODUs) over wireless point-to-multipoint up to 10km 
>> away. Each ODU then has a reverse converter, which gives us EPON 
>> again.
>> 
>> Once we are back on EPON, we can insert splitters, for example, 
>> pre-connectorized outdoor 1:16 boxes. Every customer install now 
>> involves a 100 meter roll of pre-connectorized 2-core drop cable, and 
>> a $20 EPON ONU.
>> 
>> Using this deployment method, we could connect up to 16 customers to a 
>> single $200 endpoint, so the enpoint CAPEX per customer is now $12.5. 
>> Add the ONU, cable, etc. and we have a per-install CAPEX of $82.5 
>> (assuming the same $50 of extras we had before), and an even shorter 
>> break-even. In addition, as the endpoints support higher capacity, we 
>> can provision at least the same, if not more, capacity per customer.
>> 
>> Other advantages: the $200 ODU is no longer customer equipment and 
>> CAPEX, but network equipment, and as such, can operate under a longer 
>> break-even timeline, and be financed by infrastructure PE funds, for 
>> example. As a result, churn has a much lower financial impact on the 
>> operator.
>> 
>> The main reason why this wouldn't work today is that EPON, as we know, 
>> is synchronous, and requires the OLT to orchestrate the amount of time 
>> each ONU can transmit, and when. Having wireless hops and media 
>> conversions will introduce latencies which can break down the 
>> communications (e.g. one ONU may transmit, get delayed on the radio 
>> link, and end up overlapping another ONU that transmitted on the next 
>> slot). Thus, either the "magic" box needs to account for this, or an 
>> new hybrid EPON-wireless protocol developed.
>> 
>> My main point here: the industry is moving away from the unconnected. 
>> All the claims I heard and saw at MWC about "connecting the 
>> unconnected" had zero resonance with the financial drivers that the 
>> unconnected really operate under, on top of IT literacy, digital 
>> skills, devices, power...
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Mike
>> On Mar 14, 2023 at 05:27 +0100, rjmcmahon via Starlink 
>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, wrote:
>>> To change the topic - curious to thoughts on FiWi.
>>> 
>>> Imagine a world with no copper cable called FiWi (Fiber,VCSEL/CMOS
>>> Radios, Antennas) and which is point to point inside a building
>>> connected to virtualized APs fiber hops away. Each remote radio head
>>> (RRH) would consume 5W or less and only when active. No need for 
>>> things
>>> like zigbee, or meshes, or threads as each radio has a fiber 
>>> connection
>>> via Corning's actifi or equivalent. Eliminate the AP/Client power
>>> imbalance. Plastics also can house smoke or other sensors.
>>> 
>>> Some reminders from Paul Baran in 1994 (and from David Reed)
>>> 
>>> o) Shorter range rf transceivers connected to fiber could produce a
>>> significant improvement - - tremendous improvement, really.
>>> o) a mixture of terrestrial links plus shorter range radio links has 
>>> the
>>> effect of increasing by orders and orders of magnitude the amount of
>>> frequency spectrum that can be made available.
>>> o) By authorizing high power to support a few users to reach slightly
>>> longer distances we deprive ourselves of the opportunity to serve the
>>> many.
>>> o) Communications systems can be built with 10dB ratio
>>> o) Digital transmission when properly done allows a small signal to
>>> noise ratio to be used successfully to retrieve an error free signal.
>>> o) And, never forget, any transmission capacity not used is wasted
>>> forever, like water over the dam. Not using such techniques represent
>>> lost opportunity.
>>> 
>>> And on waveguides:
>>> 
>>> o) "Fiber transmission loss is ~0.5dB/km for single mode fiber,
>>> independent of modulation"
>>> o) “Copper cables and PCB traces are very frequency dependent. At
>>> 100Gb/s, the loss is in dB/inch."
>>> o) "Free space: the power density of the radio waves decreases with 
>>> the
>>> square of distance from the transmitting antenna due to spreading of 
>>> the
>>> electromagnetic energy in space according to the inverse square law"
>>> 
>>> The sunk costs & long-lived parts of FiWi are the fiber and the CPE
>>> plastics & antennas, as CMOS radios+ & fiber/laser, e.g. VCSEL could 
>>> be
>>> pluggable, allowing for field upgrades. Just like swapping out SFP in 
>>> a
>>> data center.
>>> 
>>> This approach basically drives out WiFi latency by eliminating shared
>>> queues and increases capacity by orders of magnitude by leveraging 
>>> 10dB
>>> in the spatial dimension, all of which is achieved by a physical 
>>> design.
>>> Just place enough RRHs as needed (similar to a pop up sprinkler in an
>>> irrigation system.)
>>> 
>>> Start and build this for an MDU and the value of the building 
>>> improves.
>>> Sadly, there seems no way to capture that value other than over long
>>> term use. It doesn't matter whether the leader of the HOA tries to
>>> capture the value or if a last mile provider tries. The value remains
>>> sunk or hidden with nothing on the asset side of the balance sheet.
>>> We've got a CAPEX spend that has to be made up via "OPEX returns" 
>>> over
>>> years.
>>> 
>>> But the asset is there.
>>> 
>>> How do we do this?
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Starlink mailing list
>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rpm mailing list
>> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Come Heckle Mar 6-9 at: https://www.understandinglatency.com/
>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Rpm mailing list
> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm

Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] On FiWi

[Bruce Perens]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 696 bytes --]

On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 12:19 PM rjmcmahon via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:You’ll hardly ever have to deal with
the annoying

> “chirping” that occurs when a battery-powered smoke detector begins to
> go dead, and your entire family will be alerted in the event that a fire
> does occur since hardwire smoke detectors can be interconnected.
>

Off-topic, but the sensors in these hardwired units expire after 10 years,
and they start beeping. The batteries in modern battery-powered units with
wireless links expire after 10 years, along with the rest of the unit, and
they start beeping.
There are exceptions, the first-generation Nest was pretty bad.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1041 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] On FiWi

[rjmcmahon]

I'm curious as to why the detectors have to be replaced every 10 years. 
Regardless, modern sensors could give a thermal map of the entire 
complex 24x7x365. Fire officials would have a better set of eyes when 
they showed up as the sensor system & network could provide thermals as 
a time series.

Also, another "killer app" for Boston is digital image correlation & the 
cameras monitor stresses and strains on historic buildings valued at 
about $10M each. And that's undervalued because they're really 
irreplaceable. Similar for some in the Netherladns. Monitoring the 
groundwater with samples every 4 mos is ok - better to monitor the 
structure itself 24x7x365.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/digital-image-correlation
https://www.bostongroundwater.org/

Bob

On 2023-03-17 13:37, Bruce Perens wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 12:19 PM rjmcmahon via Starlink
> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:You’ll hardly ever have to
> deal with the annoying
> 
>> “chirping” that occurs when a battery-powered smoke detector
>> begins to
>> go dead, and your entire family will be alerted in the event that a
>> fire
>> does occur since hardwire smoke detectors can be interconnected.
> 
> Off-topic, but the sensors in these hardwired units expire after 10
> years, and they start beeping. The batteries in modern battery-powered
> units with wireless links expire after 10 years, along with the rest
> of the unit, and they start beeping.
> 
> There are exceptions, the first-generation Nest was pretty bad.

Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] On FiWi

[Bruce Perens]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 786 bytes --]

On Fri, Mar 17, 2023 at 1:57 PM rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:

> I'm curious as to why the detectors have to be replaced every 10 years.


Dust, grease from cooking oil vapors, insects, mold, etc. accumulate, and
it's so expensive to clean those little sensors, and there is so much
liability associated with them, that it's cheaper to replace the head every
10 years. Electrolytic capacitors have a limited lifetime and that is also
a good reason to replace the device.

The basic sensor architecture is photoelectric, the older ones used an
americium pelllet that detected gas ionization which was changed by the
presence of smoke. The half-life on the americium ones is at least 400
years (there is more than one isotope, that's the shortest-life one).

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1143 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] On FiWi

[rjmcmahon]

>> I'm curious as to why the detectors have to be replaced every 10
>> years.
> 
> Dust, grease from cooking oil vapors, insects, mold, etc. accumulate,
> and it's so expensive to clean those little sensors, and there is so
> much liability associated with them, that it's cheaper to replace the
> head every 10 years. Electrolytic capacitors have a limited lifetime
> and that is also a good reason to replace the device.
> 
> The basic sensor architecture is photoelectric, the older ones used an
> americium pelllet that detected gas ionization which was changed by
> the presence of smoke. The half-life on the americium ones is at least
> 400 years (there is more than one isotope, that's the shortest-life
> one).

Thanks for this. That makes sense. I do think the FiWi transceivers & 
sensors need to be pluggable & detect failures, particularly early on 
due to infant mortality.

"Infant mortality is a special equipment failure mode that shows the 
probability of failure being highest when the equipment is first 
started, but reduces as time goes on. Eventually, the probability of 
failure levels off after time."

https://www.upkeep.com/blog/infant-mortality-equipment-failure#:~:text=Infant%20mortality%20is%20a%20special,failure%20levels%20off%20after%20time.

Also curious about thermal imaging inside a building - what sensor tech 
to use and at what cost? The Bronx fire occurred because poor people in 
public housing don't have access to electric heat pumps & used a space 
heater instead. It's very sad we as a society do this, i.e. make sure 
rich people can drive Teslas with heat pumps but only provide the worst 
type of heating to children from families that aren't so fortunate.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/10/us/nyc-bronx-apartment-fire-monday/index.html

"A malfunctioning electric space heater in a bedroom was the source of 
an apartment building fire Sunday in the Bronx that killed 17 people, 
including 8 children, making it one of the worst fires in the city’s 
history, New York Mayor Eric Adams said Monday."

Bob

Re: [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Rpm] On FiWi

[dan]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2859 bytes --]

On Sat, Mar 18, 2023 at 12:18 PM rjmcmahon via LibreQoS <
libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> >> I'm curious as to why the detectors have to be replaced every 10
> >> years.
> >
> > Dust, grease from cooking oil vapors, insects, mold, etc. accumulate,
> > and it's so expensive to clean those little sensors, and there is so
> > much liability associated with them, that it's cheaper to replace the
> > head every 10 years. Electrolytic capacitors have a limited lifetime
> > and that is also a good reason to replace the device.
> >
> > The basic sensor architecture is photoelectric, the older ones used an
> > americium pelllet that detected gas ionization which was changed by
> > the presence of smoke. The half-life on the americium ones is at least
> > 400 years (there is more than one isotope, that's the shortest-life
> > one).
>
> Thanks for this. That makes sense. I do think the FiWi transceivers &
> sensors need to be pluggable & detect failures, particularly early on
> due to infant mortality.
>
> "Infant mortality is a special equipment failure mode that shows the
> probability of failure being highest when the equipment is first
> started, but reduces as time goes on. Eventually, the probability of
> failure levels off after time."
>
>
> https://www.upkeep.com/blog/infant-mortality-equipment-failure#:~:text=Infant%20mortality%20is%20a%20special,failure%20levels%20off%20after%20time
> .
>
> Also curious about thermal imaging inside a building - what sensor tech
> to use and at what cost? The Bronx fire occurred because poor people in
> public housing don't have access to electric heat pumps & used a space
> heater instead. It's very sad we as a society do this, i.e. make sure
> rich people can drive Teslas with heat pumps but only provide the worst
> type of heating to children from families that aren't so fortunate.
>
>
> https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/10/us/nyc-bronx-apartment-fire-monday/index.html
>
> "A malfunctioning electric space heater in a bedroom was the source of
> an apartment building fire Sunday in the Bronx that killed 17 people,
> including 8 children, making it one of the worst fires in the city’s
> history, New York Mayor Eric Adams said Monday."
>
> Bob
> _______________________________________________
> LibreQoS mailing list
> LibreQoS@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/libreqos
>
All of the states use cases are already handled by inexpensive lorawan
sensors and are already covered by multiple lorawan networks in NYC and
most urban centers in the US.  There is no need for a new infrastructure,
it’s already there.  Not to mention NBIoT/catm radios.

This is all just general cheapness and lack of liability keeping these out
of widespread deployment. It’s not lack of tech on the market today.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3944 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Rpm] On FiWi

[rjmcmahon]

  > All of the states use cases are already handled by inexpensive 
lorawan
> sensors and are already covered by multiple lorawan networks in NYC
> and most urban centers in the US.  There is no need for a new
> infrastructure, it’s already there.  Not to mention NBIoT/catm
> radios.
> 
> This is all just general cheapness and lack of liability keeping these
> out of widespread deployment. It’s not lack of tech on the market
> today.

What is the footprint of lorawan networks and what's the velocity of 
growth? What's the cost per square foot both capex and operations, 
maintaining & monitoring lorawan? What's that compared to the WiFi 
install base, i.e. now we have train even installers and maintainers on 
purpose built technology vs just use what most people know because it's 
common? This all looks like ethernet, token ring, fddi, netbios, decnet, 
etc. where the single approach of IP over WiFi/ethernet with fiber 
fronthaul wave guides and backhauls' waveguides per the ISP seems the 
effective way forward. I don't think it's in society's interest to have 
so disparate networks technologies as we have learned from IP and the 
internet. My guess is lorawan will never get built out across the planet 
as has been done for IP. I can tell that every country is adopting IP 
because they're using a free IP tool to measure their networks.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/iperf2/files/stats/map?dates=2014-02-06%20to%202023-03-18&period=daily

Bob

Re: [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Rpm] On FiWi

[Michael Richardson]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 582 bytes --]


{lots of lists on the CC}

The problem I have with lorawan is that it's too small for anything but the
smallest sensors.  When it breaks (due to infant death or just vanadalism)
who is going to notice enough to fix it?  My belief is that people won't
break things that they like/depend upon.  Or at least, that there will be
social pressure not to.

Better to have a protected 1Mb/s sensor lan within a 144Mb/s wifi than a
adjacent lorawan.

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
 -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-                      *I*LIKE*TRAINS*




[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 487 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

[dan]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5464 bytes --]

I more or less agree with you Frantisek.   There are throughput numbers
that are need for current gen and next gen services, but those are often
met with 50-100Mbps plans today that are enough to handle multiple 4K
streams plus browsing and so forth, yet no one talks about latency and
packet loss and other useful metrics at all and consumers are not able to
and never will be able to understand more that a couple of numbers.  This
is an industry problem and unless we have some sort of working group that
is pushing this like the 'got milk?' advertisements I'm not sure how we
will ever get there.  The big vendors that have pushed docsis to extremes
have no interest in these other details, they win on the big 'speed' number
and will advertising all sorts of performance around that number.

We need a marketing/lobby group.  Not wispa or other individual industry
groups, but one specifically for *ISPs that will contribute as well as
implement policies and put that out on social media etc etc.  i don't know
how we get there without a big player (ie Netflix, hulu..) contributing.

On Mon, Mar 20, 2023 at 2:46 PM Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> Late to the party, also not an engineer...but if there's something I have
> learned during my time with RF elements:
>
> --- 99% of the vendors out there (and most of the ISPs, I dare to say, as
> well) don't know/care/respect thing as "simple", as physics.
>
> --- 2.4GHz was lost because of this, and 5GHz was saved like "5 minutes to
> midnight" for ISPs, by RF elements Horns (and UltraHorns, UltraDish,
> Asymmetrical Horns later on), basically, that have inspired ("Imitation is
> the sincerest form of flattery that mediocrity can pay to greatness." Oscar
> Wilde) some other vendors of the antennas to bring their own version of
> Horns etc.
>
> --- sure, lot of improvements in order to fight noise, modulate,
> virtualise (like Tarana Wireless) were done on the AP (radio) side, but
> still - physics is physics and it was overlooked and neglected for such a
> LONG time.
>
> --- ISPs were told by the vendors to basically BLAST through the noise and
> many more BS like this. So they did as they were told, they were blasting
> and blasting. Those that were getting smarter, switched to RF elements
> Horns, stopped blasting, started to being reasonable with topology ("if
> Your customers are 5 miles away from the AP, You will not blast like crazy
> for 10 miles, because You will pick up all the noise") and they even
> started to cooperate - frequency coordination, colocation - with other ISPs
> on the same towers etc (the same co-ordination needs to be done between the
> ISP behind the CPEs now - on the Wi-Fi routers of their customers.)
>
> The similar development I was able to see when I got into Wi-Fi (while at
> TurrisTech <https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/tango_on_turris/> - secure,
> powerful open source Wi-Fi routers). The same story, basically, for vendors
> as well as ISPs. No actual respect for the underlying physics, attempts to
> blast-over the noise, chasing clouds ("muah WiFi 6, 6E....oh no, here comes
> Wi-Fi 7 and this will change EVERYTHING ---> see, it was a lot of "fun" to
> see this happening with 5G, and the amount of over-promise and
> under-delivery BS was and even still is, staggering.)
> The whole Wi-Fi industry is chasing (almost) empty numbers (bandwidth)
> instead of focusing on bufferbloat (latency, jitter...).
> Thanks to Domos for putting together the Understanding Latency webinar
> series. I know that most of You are aware of latency as the most important
> metric we should focus on nowadays in order to improve the overall Internet
> experience, but still...
> About 6 hours watch of watching. And rewatching:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdTPz5srJ8M
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAVwmUG21OY
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRmcWyIVXvg
>
> Also, there is one more thing to add re Wi-Fi. If You can cable, You
> should always cable. Mesh as we know it, would be a way better Wi-Fi
> enhancement, if the mesh units would be wired as much as possible. We will
> reduce the noice, grow smart and save spectrum.
>
> Thanks for the great discussion.
>
> All the best,
>
> Frank
>
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>
>
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>
> Skype: casioa5302ca
>
> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 19, 2023 at 11:27 AM Michael Richardson via Rpm <
> rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> {lots of lists on the CC}
>>
>> The problem I have with lorawan is that it's too small for anything but
>> the
>> smallest sensors.  When it breaks (due to infant death or just vanadalism)
>> who is going to notice enough to fix it?  My belief is that people won't
>> break things that they like/depend upon.  Or at least, that there will be
>> social pressure not to.
>>
>> Better to have a protected 1Mb/s sensor lan within a 144Mb/s wifi than a
>> adjacent lorawan.
>>
>> --
>> Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>, Sandelman Software Works
>>  -= IPv6 IoT consulting =-                      *I*LIKE*TRAINS*
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rpm mailing list
>> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
>>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 7722 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

[Brandon Butterworth]

On Mon Mar 20, 2023 at 03:28:57PM -0600, dan via Starlink wrote:
> I more or less agree with you Frantisek.   There are throughput numbers
> that are need for current gen and next gen services, but those are often
> met with 50-100Mbps plans today that are enough to handle multiple 4K
> streams plus browsing and so forth

It is for now, question is how busy will it get and will that be before
the next upgrade round.

This is why there's a push to sell gigabit in the UK.

It gives newcomer altnets something the consumers can understand - big
number - to market against the incumbents sweatng old assets
with incremental upgrades that will become a problem. From my personal
point of view (doing active ethernet) it seems pointless making
equipment more expensive to enable lower speeds to be sold.

> yet no one talks about latency and packet loss and other useful metrics

Gamers get it and rate ISPs on it, nobody else cares. Part of the
reason for throwing bandwith at the home is to ensure the hard to
replace distribution and house drop is never the problem. Backhaul
becomes the limit and they can upgrade that more easily when market
pressure with speedtests show there is a problem.

> We need a marketing/lobby group.  Not wispa or other individual industry
> groups, but one specifically for *ISPs that will contribute as well as
> implement policies and put that out on social media etc etc.  i don't know
> how we get there without a big player (ie Netflix, hulu..) contributing.

Peak time congestion through average stream speed reduction is faily obvious
in playback stats. Any large platform has lots of data on which ISPs
are performing well.

We can share stats with the ISPs and tell A that they are performing
worse than B,C,D if there is a problem. I did want to publish it so
the public could choose the best but legal were not comfortable
with that.

brandon

Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

[Sebastian Moeller]

Hi Brandon,


> On Mar 21, 2023, at 01:10, Brandon Butterworth via Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> On Mon Mar 20, 2023 at 03:28:57PM -0600, dan via Starlink wrote:
>> I more or less agree with you Frantisek.   There are throughput numbers
>> that are need for current gen and next gen services, but those are often
>> met with 50-100Mbps plans today that are enough to handle multiple 4K
>> streams plus browsing and so forth
> 
> It is for now, question is how busy will it get and will that be before
> the next upgrade round.

	I agree these are rates that can work pretty well (assuming the upload is wide enough). This is also orthogonal to the point that both copper access networks, have already or a close to reaching their reasonable end of life, so replacing copper with fiber seems a good idea to future proof the access network. But once you do that you realize that actual traffic (at least for big ISPs that do not need to buy much transit and get cost neural peerings) is not that costly, so offering a 1 Gbps plan instead of a 100 Mbps is a no brainer, the customer is unlikely to actually source/sink that much more traffic and you might get a few pound/EUR/$ more out of essentially the same load.

> 
> This is why there's a push to sell gigabit in the UK.

	I think this also holds for the EU.

> 
> It gives newcomer altnets something the consumers can understand - big
> number - to market against the incumbents sweatng old assets
> with incremental upgrades that will become a problem. From my personal
> point of view (doing active ethernet) it seems pointless making
> equipment more expensive to enable lower speeds to be sold.


One additional reason for the "push for the gigabit" is political in nature. The national level of fiber deployment is taken as sort of digital trump game in which different countries want to look good, taking available capacity (and more so the giga-prefix) as proxy for digitalization and modernity. So if there are politic "mandates/desires" to have a high average capacity, then ISPs will follow that mandate, especially since that is basically an extension of the existing marketing anyways...


>> yet no one talks about latency and packet loss and other useful metrics

	Fun fact, I am currently diagnosing issues with my ISP regarding packet-loss, one of their gateways produces ~1% packet loss in the download direction independent of load, wrecking havoc with speedtest results (Not even BBR will tolerate 1% random loss without a noticeable throghuput hit) and hence resulting in months of customer complaints the ISP did not manage to root-cause and fix... Realistically the packetloss rate without load should be really close to 0


> Gamers get it and rate ISPs on it, nobody else cares. Part of the
> reason for throwing bandwith at the home is to ensure the hard to
> replace distribution and house drop is never the problem. Backhaul
> becomes the limit and they can upgrade that more easily when market
> pressure with speedtests show there is a problem.
> 
>> We need a marketing/lobby group.  Not wispa or other individual industry
>> groups, but one specifically for *ISPs that will contribute as well as
>> implement policies and put that out on social media etc etc.  i don't know
>> how we get there without a big player (ie Netflix, hulu..) contributing.
> 
> Peak time congestion through average stream speed reduction is faily obvious
> in playback stats. Any large platform has lots of data on which ISPs
> are performing well.
> 
> We can share stats with the ISPs and tell A that they are performing
> worse than B,C,D if there is a problem. I did want to publish it so
> the public could choose the best but legal were not comfortable
> with that.
> 
> brandon
> _______________________________________________
> Rpm mailing list
> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm

Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

[rjmcmahon]

I think we may all be still stuck on numbers. Since infinity is taken, 
the new marketing number is "infinity & beyond" per Buzz Lightyear

Here's what I want, I'm sure others have ideas too:

o) We all deserve COPPA. Get the advertiser & their cohorts to stop 
mining my data & communications - limit or prohibit access to my 
information by those who continue to violate privacy rights
o) An unlimited storage offering with the lowest possible latency paid 
for annually. That equipment ends up as close as possible to my main 
home per speed of light limits.
o) Security of my network including 24x7x365 monitoring for breaches and 
for performance
  o) Access to any cloud software app. Google & Apple are getting 
something like 30% for every app on a phone. Seems like a last-mile 
provider should get a revenue share for hosting apps that aren't being 
downloaded. Blockbuster did this for DVDs before streaming took over. 
Revenue shares done properly, while imperfect, can work.
o) A life-support capable, future proof, componentized, leash-free, 
in-home network that is dual-homed over the last mile for redundancy
o) Per room FiWi and sensors that can be replaced and upgraded by me 
ordering and swapping the parts without an ISP getting all my neighbors' 
consensus & buy in
o) VPN capabilities & offerings to the content rights owners' 
intellectual property for when the peering agreements fall apart
o) Video conferencing that works 24x7x365 on all devices
o) A single & robust shut-off circuit

Bob

PS. I think the sweet spot may turn out to be 100Gb/s when considering 
climate impact. Type 2 emissions are a big deal so we need to deliver 
the fastest causality possible (incl. no queueing) at the lowest energy 
consumption engineers can achieve.

Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

[rjmcmahon]

Also, I want my network to be the color clear because I value 
transparency, honesty, and clarity.

https://carbuzz.com/news/car-colors-are-more-important-to-buyers-than-you-think

"There are many factors to consider when buying a new car, from price 
and comfort to safety equipment. For many people, color is another 
important factor since it reflects their personality."

"In a study by Automotive Color Preferences 2021 Consumer Survey, 4,000 
people aged 25 to 60 in four of the largest car markets in the world 
(China, Germany, Mexico and the US) were asked about their car color 
preferences. Out of these, 88 percent said that color is a key deciding 
factor when buying a car."

Bob
> I think we may all be still stuck on numbers. Since infinity is taken,
> the new marketing number is "infinity & beyond" per Buzz Lightyear
> 
> Here's what I want, I'm sure others have ideas too:
> 
> o) We all deserve COPPA. Get the advertiser & their cohorts to stop
> mining my data & communications - limit or prohibit access to my
> information by those who continue to violate privacy rights
> o) An unlimited storage offering with the lowest possible latency paid
> for annually. That equipment ends up as close as possible to my main
> home per speed of light limits.
> o) Security of my network including 24x7x365 monitoring for breaches
> and for performance
>  o) Access to any cloud software app. Google & Apple are getting
> something like 30% for every app on a phone. Seems like a last-mile
> provider should get a revenue share for hosting apps that aren't being
> downloaded. Blockbuster did this for DVDs before streaming took over.
> Revenue shares done properly, while imperfect, can work.
> o) A life-support capable, future proof, componentized, leash-free,
> in-home network that is dual-homed over the last mile for redundancy
> o) Per room FiWi and sensors that can be replaced and upgraded by me
> ordering and swapping the parts without an ISP getting all my
> neighbors' consensus & buy in
> o) VPN capabilities & offerings to the content rights owners'
> intellectual property for when the peering agreements fall apart
> o) Video conferencing that works 24x7x365 on all devices
> o) A single & robust shut-off circuit
> 
> Bob
> 
> PS. I think the sweet spot may turn out to be 100Gb/s when considering
> climate impact. Type 2 emissions are a big deal so we need to deliver
> the fastest causality possible (incl. no queueing) at the lowest
> energy consumption engineers can achieve.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Rpm mailing list
> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm

Re: [Starlink] [Rpm] [LibreQoS] On FiWi

[rjmcmahon]

I was around when BGP & other critical junctures 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_juncture_theory  the commercial 
internet. Here's a short write-up from another thread with some thoughts 
(Note: there are no queues in the Schramm Model 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schramm%27s_model_of_communication )

On why we're here.

I think Stuart's point about not having the correct framing is spot on. 
I also think part of that may come from the internet's origin story 
so-to-speak. In the early days of the commercial internet, ISPs formed 
by buying MODEM banks from suppliers and connecting them to the 
telephone company central offices (thanks Strowger!) and then leasing T1 
lines from the same telco, connecting the two.  Products like a Cisco 
Access Gateway were used for the MODEM side. The 4K independent ISPs 
formed in the U.S. took advantage of statistical multiplexing per IP 
packets to optimize the PSTN's time division multiplexing (TDM) design. 
That design had a lot of extra capacity because of the mother's day 
problem - the network had to carry the peak volume of calls. It was 
always odd to me that the telephone companies basically contracted out 
statistical to TDM coupling of networks and didn't do it themselves. 
This was rectified with broadband and most all the independent ISPs went 
out of business.

IP statistical multiplexing was great except for one thing. The attached 
computers were faster than their network i/o so TCP had to do things 
like congestion control to avoid network collapse based on congestion 
signals (and a very imperfect control loop.) Basically, that extra TDM 
capacity for voice calls was consumed very quickly. This set in motion 
the idea that network channel capacity is a proxy for computer speed as 
when networks are underprovisioned and congested that's basically 
accurate. Van Jacobson's work was most always about congestion on what 
today are bandwidth constrained networks.

This also started a bit of a cultural war colloquially known as 
Bellheads vs Netheads. The human engineers took sides more or less. The 
netheads mostly kept increasing capacity. The market demand curve for 
computer connections drove this. It's come to a head though, in that 
netheads most always overprovisioned similar to solving the mother's day 
problem. (This is different from the electric build out where the goal 
is to drive peak and average loads to merge in order to keep generators 
efficient at a constant speed.)

Many were first stuck with the concept of bandwidth scarcity per those 
origins. But then came bandwidth abundance and many haven't adjusted. 
Mental block number one. Mental block two occurs when one sees all that 
bandwidth and says, let's use it all as it's going to be scarce, like a 
Great Depression-era person hoarding basic items.

A digression; This isn't that much different in the early days before 
Einstein. Einstein changed thinking by realizing that the speed of 
causality was defined or limited by the speed of massless particles, 
i.e. energy or photons. We all come from energy in one way or another. 
So of course it makes sense that our causality system, e.g. aging, is 
determined by that speed. It had to be relative for Maxwell's equations 
to be held true - which Einstein agreed with as true irrelevant of 
inertial frame. A leap for us comes when we realize that the speed of 
causality, i.e. time, is fundamentally the speed of energy.  It's true 
for all clocks, objects, etc. even computers.

So when we engineer systems that queue information, we don't slow down 
energy, we slow down information. Computers are mass information tools 
so slowing down information slows down distributed compute. As Stuart 
says, "It's the latency, stupid".  It's physics too.

I was trying to explain to a dark fiber provider that I wanted 100Gb/s 
SFPs to a residential building in Boston. They said, nobody needs 
100Gb/s and that's correct from a link capacity perspective. But the 
economics & energy required for the lowest latency ber bit delivered 
actually is 100Gb/s SERDES attached to lasers attached to fiber.

What we really want is low latency at the lowest energy possible, and 
also to be unleashed from cables (as we're not dogs.) Hence FiWi.

Bob

> I do believe that we all want to get the best - latency and speed,
> hopefully, in this particular order :-)
> The problem was that from the very beginning of the Internet (yeah, I
> was still not here, on this planet, when it all started), everything
> was optimised for speed, bandwidth and other numbers, but not so much
> for bufferbloat in general.
> Some of the things that goes into it in the need for speed, are
> directly against the fixing latency...and it was not setup for it.
> Gamers and Covid (work from home, the need for the enterprise network
> but in homes...) brings it into conversation, thankfully, and now we
> will deal with it.
> 
> Also, there is another thing I see and it's a negative sentiment
> against anything business (monetisation of, say - lower latency
> solutions) in general. If it comes from the general geeky/open
> source/etc folks, I can understand it a bit. But it comes also from
> the business people - assuming some of You works in big corporations
> or run ISPs. I'm all against cronyism, but to throw out the baby with
> the bathwater - to say that doing business (i.e. getting paid for
> delivering something that is missing/fixing something that is
> implementing insufficiently) is wrong, to look at it with disdain, is
> asinine.
> 
> This has the connection with the general "Net Neutrality" (NN)
> sentiment. I have 2 suggestions for reading from the other side of the
> aisle, on this topic: https://www.martingeddes.com/1261-2 [1]/ (Martin
> was censored by all major social media back then, during the days of
> NN fight in the FCC and elsewhere.) Second thing is written by one and
> only Dave Taht:
> https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/net_neutrality_customers/
> 
> To conclude, we need to find the way how to benchmark and/or
> communicate (translate, if You will) the whole variety of the quality
> of network statistics/metrics (which are complex) like QoE, QoS,
> latency, jitter, bufferbloat...to something, that is meaningful for
> the end user. See this short proposition of the Quality of Outcome by
> Domos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=MRmcWyIVXvg&t=4185s
> There is definitely a lot of work on this - and also on the finding
> the right benchmark and its actual measurement side, but it's a step
> in the right direction.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing Your take on that proposed Quality of
> Outcome. Thanks a lot.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Frank
> 
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> 
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> 
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> 
> Skype: casioa5302ca
> 
> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> 
> On Tue, Mar 21, 2023 at 7:08 PM rjmcmahon via Rpm
> <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
>> Also, I want my network to be the color clear because I value
>> transparency, honesty, and clarity.
>> 
>> 
> https://carbuzz.com/news/car-colors-are-more-important-to-buyers-than-you-think
>> 
>> "There are many factors to consider when buying a new car, from
>> price
>> and comfort to safety equipment. For many people, color is another
>> important factor since it reflects their personality."
>> 
>> "In a study by Automotive Color Preferences 2021 Consumer Survey,
>> 4,000
>> people aged 25 to 60 in four of the largest car markets in the world
>> 
>> (China, Germany, Mexico and the US) were asked about their car color
>> 
>> preferences. Out of these, 88 percent said that color is a key
>> deciding
>> factor when buying a car."
>> 
>> Bob
>>> I think we may all be still stuck on numbers. Since infinity is
>> taken,
>>> the new marketing number is "infinity & beyond" per Buzz Lightyear
>>> 
>>> Here's what I want, I'm sure others have ideas too:
>>> 
>>> o) We all deserve COPPA. Get the advertiser & their cohorts to
>> stop
>>> mining my data & communications - limit or prohibit access to my
>>> information by those who continue to violate privacy rights
>>> o) An unlimited storage offering with the lowest possible latency
>> paid
>>> for annually. That equipment ends up as close as possible to my
>> main
>>> home per speed of light limits.
>>> o) Security of my network including 24x7x365 monitoring for
>> breaches
>>> and for performance
>>> o) Access to any cloud software app. Google & Apple are getting
>>> something like 30% for every app on a phone. Seems like a
>> last-mile
>>> provider should get a revenue share for hosting apps that aren't
>> being
>>> downloaded. Blockbuster did this for DVDs before streaming took
>> over.
>>> Revenue shares done properly, while imperfect, can work.
>>> o) A life-support capable, future proof, componentized,
>> leash-free,
>>> in-home network that is dual-homed over the last mile for
>> redundancy
>>> o) Per room FiWi and sensors that can be replaced and upgraded by
>> me
>>> ordering and swapping the parts without an ISP getting all my
>>> neighbors' consensus & buy in
>>> o) VPN capabilities & offerings to the content rights owners'
>>> intellectual property for when the peering agreements fall apart
>>> o) Video conferencing that works 24x7x365 on all devices
>>> o) A single & robust shut-off circuit
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>> PS. I think the sweet spot may turn out to be 100Gb/s when
>> considering
>>> climate impact. Type 2 emissions are a big deal so we need to
>> deliver
>>> the fastest causality possible (incl. no queueing) at the lowest
>>> energy consumption engineers can achieve.
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Rpm mailing list
>>> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
>> _______________________________________________
>> Rpm mailing list
>> Rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/rpm
> 
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] https://www.martingeddes.com/1261-2

[Starlink] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[rjmcmahon]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1290 bytes --]

Hi All,

I've been trying to modernize a building in Boston where I'm an HOA 
board member over the last 18 mos. I perceive the broadband network as a 
critical infrastructure to our 5 unit building.

Unfortunately, Comcast staff doesn't seem to agree. The agent basically 
closed the chat on me mid-stream (chat attached.) I've been at this for 
about 18 mos now.

While I think bufferbloat is a big issue, the bigger issue is that our 
last-mile providers must change their cultures to understand that life 
support use cases that require proper pathways, conduits & cabling can 
no longer be ignored. These buildings have coaxial thrown over the 
exterior walls done in the 80s then drilling holes without consideration 
of structures. This and the lack of environmental protections for our 
HOA's critical infrastructure is disheartening. It's past time to remove 
this shoddy work on our building and all buildings in Boston as well as 
across the globe.

My hope was by now I'd have shown through actions what a historic 
building in Boston looks like when we, as humans in our short lives, act 
as both stewards of history and as responsible guardians to those that 
share living spaces and neighborhoods today & tomorrow. Motivating 
humans to better serve one another is hard.

Bob

[-- Attachment #2: comcast.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 115724 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[Sebastian Moeller]

Hi Bob,


somewhat sad. Have you considered that your described requirements and the use-case might be outside of the mass-market envelope for which the big ISPs taylor/rig their processes? Maybe, not sure that is an option, if you approach this as a "business"* asking for a fiber uplink for an already "wired" 5 unit property you might get better service? You still would need to do the in-house re-wiring, but you likely would avoid scripted hot-lines that hang up when in the allotted time the agent sees little chance of "closing" the call. All (big) ISPs I know treat hotline as a cost factor and not as the first line of customer retention...
I would also not be amazed if Boston had smaller ISPs that are willing and able to listen to customers (but that might be a bit more expensive than the big ISPs).
That or try to get your foot into Comcast's PR department to sell them on the "reference installation" for all Boston historic buildings, so they can offset the custom tailoring effort with the expected good press of doing the "right thing" publicly.

Good luck
	Sebastian


*) I understand you are not, but I assume the business units to have more leeway to actually offer more bespoke solutions than the likely cost-optimized to Mars and back residental customer unit.


> On Mar 25, 2023, at 20:39, rjmcmahon via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I've been trying to modernize a building in Boston where I'm an HOA board member over the last 18 mos. I perceive the broadband network as a critical infrastructure to our 5 unit building.
> 
> Unfortunately, Comcast staff doesn't seem to agree. The agent basically closed the chat on me mid-stream (chat attached.) I've been at this for about 18 mos now.
> 
> While I think bufferbloat is a big issue, the bigger issue is that our last-mile providers must change their cultures to understand that life support use cases that require proper pathways, conduits & cabling can no longer be ignored. These buildings have coaxial thrown over the exterior walls done in the 80s then drilling holes without consideration of structures. This and the lack of environmental protections for our HOA's critical infrastructure is disheartening. It's past time to remove this shoddy work on our building and all buildings in Boston as well as across the globe.
> 
> My hope was by now I'd have shown through actions what a historic building in Boston looks like when we, as humans in our short lives, act as both stewards of history and as responsible guardians to those that share living spaces and neighborhoods today & tomorrow. Motivating humans to better serve one another is hard.
> 
> Bob<comcast.pdf>_______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[rjmcmahon]

It's not just one phone call. I've been figuring this out for about two 
years now. I've been working with some strategic people in Boston, colos 
& dark fiber providers, and professional installers that wired up many 
of the Boston universities, some universities themselves to offer co-ops 
to students to run networsk, trainings for DIC and other high value IoT 
offerings, blue collar principals (with staffs of about 100) to help 
them learn to install fiber and provide better jobs for their employees.

My conclusion is that Comcast is best suited for the job as the 
broadband provider, at least in Boston, for multiple reasons. One chat 
isn't going to block me ;)

The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital 
communications infrastructure as life support critical. It reminds me of 
Elon Musk and his claims on FSD. I could do the whole thing myself - but 
that's not going to achieve what's needed. We need systems that our 
loved ones can call and those systems will care for them. Similar to how 
the medical community works, though imperfect, in caring for our loved 
one's and their healths.

I think we all are responsible for changing our belief sets & developing 
ourselves to better serve others. Most won't act until they can actually 
see what's possible. So let's start to show them.

Bob

> Hi Bob,
> 
> 
> somewhat sad. Have you considered that your described requirements and
> the use-case might be outside of the mass-market envelope for which
> the big ISPs taylor/rig their processes? Maybe, not sure that is an
> option, if you approach this as a "business"* asking for a fiber
> uplink for an already "wired" 5 unit property you might get better
> service? You still would need to do the in-house re-wiring, but you
> likely would avoid scripted hot-lines that hang up when in the
> allotted time the agent sees little chance of "closing" the call. All
> (big) ISPs I know treat hotline as a cost factor and not as the first
> line of customer retention...
> I would also not be amazed if Boston had smaller ISPs that are willing
> and able to listen to customers (but that might be a bit more
> expensive than the big ISPs).
> That or try to get your foot into Comcast's PR department to sell them
> on the "reference installation" for all Boston historic buildings, so
> they can offset the custom tailoring effort with the expected good
> press of doing the "right thing" publicly.
> 
> Good luck
> 	Sebastian
> 
> 
> *) I understand you are not, but I assume the business units to have
> more leeway to actually offer more bespoke solutions than the likely
> cost-optimized to Mars and back residental customer unit.
> 
> 
>> On Mar 25, 2023, at 20:39, rjmcmahon via Bloat 
>> <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi All,
>> 
>> I've been trying to modernize a building in Boston where I'm an HOA 
>> board member over the last 18 mos. I perceive the broadband network as 
>> a critical infrastructure to our 5 unit building.
>> 
>> Unfortunately, Comcast staff doesn't seem to agree. The agent 
>> basically closed the chat on me mid-stream (chat attached.) I've been 
>> at this for about 18 mos now.
>> 
>> While I think bufferbloat is a big issue, the bigger issue is that our 
>> last-mile providers must change their cultures to understand that life 
>> support use cases that require proper pathways, conduits & cabling can 
>> no longer be ignored. These buildings have coaxial thrown over the 
>> exterior walls done in the 80s then drilling holes without 
>> consideration of structures. This and the lack of environmental 
>> protections for our HOA's critical infrastructure is disheartening. 
>> It's past time to remove this shoddy work on our building and all 
>> buildings in Boston as well as across the globe.
>> 
>> My hope was by now I'd have shown through actions what a historic 
>> building in Boston looks like when we, as humans in our short lives, 
>> act as both stewards of history and as responsible guardians to those 
>> that share living spaces and neighborhoods today & tomorrow. 
>> Motivating humans to better serve one another is hard.
>> 
>> Bob<comcast.pdf>_______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[Bruce Perens]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1731 bytes --]

On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 1:44 PM rjmcmahon via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
> communications infrastructure as life support critical.


When I was younger there was a standard way to do this. Fire alarms had a
dedicated pair directly to the fire department or a local alarm station.
This wasn't dial-tone, it was a DC pair that would drop a trouble
notification if DC was interrupted, and I think it would reverse polarity
to indicate alarm. If DC was interrupted, that would also turn off the
boiler in the building.

Today my home fire alarms are wireless and have cellular back to their main
Comcast connection, and detect CO, smoke, and temperature. This would not
meet insurance requirements for a commercial building, they still have all
of the sensors wired, with cellular backup.

I don't think you are considering what life-support-critical digital
communications would really cost. Start with metal conduit and
fire-resistant wiring throughout the structure. Provide redundant power for
*every* fan-out box (we just had a 24-hour power interruption here due to
storms). AT&T provides 4 hour power for "Lightspeed" tombstone boxes that
fan out telephone, beyond that a truck has to drive out and plug in a
generator, or you are out of luck if it's a wide-are outage like we just
had. Wire areas in a redundant loop rather than a tree. Supervise every
home so that interruptions are serviced automatically. Provide a 4-hour SLA.

The phone company used to do what you are asking for. The high prices this
required are the main reason that everyone has jumped off of using the
legacy telco for telephony.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2145 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[Robert McMahon]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3837 bytes --]

Hi Bruce,

I think you may be the right guy to solve this. I too remember the days of dry wire sold by the RBOCs.

I found a structured wire fire alarm install to cost $100k for our building or $20k per unit. The labor and materials is about $25k. The other $75k is liability related costs, similar to a bike helmet, $10 in parts, $40 in insurance. So it's not labor nor equipment that drives the expenses. My opinion is poor people shouldn't have to pay for insurance to insurance companies, companies that figure figures for a living.

A digression: I could do an LMR 600 passive cable system looped with Wilkinson power dividers, patch antennas and nests to protect the egress escape ladder for about $10 to $15K. Don't need an SLA. We've basically priced protecting human lives to only rich people.

We need to use technology and our cleverness to fix this version of "expense bloat."

Look at Boston public water for an example. Way too expensive to pipe water in from 15 miles away in the early days. So people who did it claimed alcoholism (and that "immorality") would be eliminated by providing clean and pure potable public water.  Alcholics would choose pathogen free water over spirits. Rich people got enough water for themselves and even for their private fountains so society stopped this initiative.

It was a motivated doctor who taught rich people that their health was tied to public health. And public health was being impacted because pathogens being spread to poor people who didn't get potable public water would by addressed by ubiquitous potable water supplies. The fire chief was put in charge. See Ties That Bind

https://upittpress.org/books/9780822961475/

Now, in the U.S, most do get potable water even to flush a toilet. It's taken for granted.

I think it's on us to do similar for digital communication networks. They're needed far beyond entertainment, and we need to get public safety elements engaged too.

Bob

On Mar 25, 2023, 2:08 PM, at 2:08 PM, Bruce Perens <bruce@perens.com> wrote:
>On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 1:44 PM rjmcmahon via Starlink <
>starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>> communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>
>
>When I was younger there was a standard way to do this. Fire alarms had
>a
>dedicated pair directly to the fire department or a local alarm
>station.
>This wasn't dial-tone, it was a DC pair that would drop a trouble
>notification if DC was interrupted, and I think it would reverse
>polarity
>to indicate alarm. If DC was interrupted, that would also turn off the
>boiler in the building.
>
>Today my home fire alarms are wireless and have cellular back to their
>main
>Comcast connection, and detect CO, smoke, and temperature. This would
>not
>meet insurance requirements for a commercial building, they still have
>all
>of the sensors wired, with cellular backup.
>
>I don't think you are considering what life-support-critical digital
>communications would really cost. Start with metal conduit and
>fire-resistant wiring throughout the structure. Provide redundant power
>for
>*every* fan-out box (we just had a 24-hour power interruption here due
>to
>storms). AT&T provides 4 hour power for "Lightspeed" tombstone boxes
>that
>fan out telephone, beyond that a truck has to drive out and plug in a
>generator, or you are out of luck if it's a wide-are outage like we
>just
>had. Wire areas in a redundant loop rather than a tree. Supervise every
>home so that interruptions are serviced automatically. Provide a 4-hour
>SLA.
>
>The phone company used to do what you are asking for. The high prices
>this
>required are the main reason that everyone has jumped off of using the
>legacy telco for telephony.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4995 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[dan]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6152 bytes --]

I'm not quite following on this.  It's really not comcast's responsibility
to do maintenance on old cables etc.  Once installed, those are fixtures
and the responsibility of the building owner.    Comcast etc are only
pulling wire in to enable their primary business of selling voice, tv, and
data.  All of these other pieces are clearly the responsibility of the
property owner to install.  Trying to put this sort of thing on an ISP
would dramatically increase the cost of delivering services.

I read the chat log and I would have closed it too.  An HOA is a business
in legal terms. for profit or non-profit, but still a business.  The cost
to bring all products to every home and business would dramatically
increase the average cost of services.  The CSR offered a 2Gbit service and
you replied that you want the lower latencies of the 6Gbit service for your
fire alarm?  Firstly, why would the 2Gbit have lower latency than the
6Gbit, and secondly how much data do you think a fire alarm uses?  As the
CSR I would be telling jokes about you with my co-workers.  I'm not meaning
to be too antagonistic here, but this is a bit over the top don't you
think?  You're getting jostled around because you are demanding a service
they don't offer at the address.  You could have taken the 2Gbit plan offer
and been installed in a few days and still had a product that is literally
1000x more than your fire circuit needs.  The moment you started in on the
Boston fire I'd have been done.   Irrelevant and sensationalist.  Fire
alarms in all 50 states require either a hard wired telephone line or a
redundant data link (ISP+Cell for example) so the who 6Gbit to prevent
everyone from dying line is so over the top it made me switch teams
mid-read.

"I dont have what you are asking for" / "connect me to someone who does" is
the "Karen: I want to talk to your manager" equivalent for an ISP's CSR to
hear.

I could continue with how absurd a lot of what has been said is but I don't
want kicked out of the group for being unfriendly so I'll let it be.

On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 4:04 PM Robert McMahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
wrote:

> Hi Bruce,
>
> I think you may be the right guy to solve this. I too remember the days of
> dry wire sold by the RBOCs.
>
> I found a structured wire fire alarm install to cost $100k for our
> building or $20k per unit. The labor and materials is about $25k. The other
> $75k is liability related costs, similar to a bike helmet, $10 in parts,
> $40 in insurance. So it's not labor nor equipment that drives the expenses.
> My opinion is poor people shouldn't have to pay for insurance to insurance
> companies, companies that figure figures for a living.
>
> A digression: I could do an LMR 600 passive cable system looped with
> Wilkinson power dividers, patch antennas and nests to protect the egress
> escape ladder for about $10 to $15K. Don't need an SLA. We've basically
> priced protecting human lives to only rich people.
>
> We need to use technology and our cleverness to fix this version of
> "expense bloat."
>
> Look at Boston public water for an example. Way too expensive to pipe
> water in from 15 miles away in the early days. So people who did it claimed
> alcoholism (and that "immorality") would be eliminated by providing clean
> and pure potable public water.  Alcholics would choose pathogen free water
> over spirits. Rich people got enough water for themselves and even for
> their private fountains so society stopped this initiative.
>
> It was a motivated doctor who taught rich people that their health was
> tied to public health. And public health was being impacted because
> pathogens being spread to poor people who didn't get potable public water
> would by addressed by ubiquitous potable water supplies. The fire chief was
> put in charge. See Ties That Bind
>
> https://upittpress.org/books/9780822961475/
>
> Now, in the U.S, most do get potable water even to flush a toilet. It's
> taken for granted.
>
> I think it's on us to do similar for digital communication networks.
> They're needed far beyond entertainment, and we need to get public safety
> elements engaged too.
>
> Bob
> On Mar 25, 2023, at 2:08 PM, Bruce Perens <bruce@perens.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 1:44 PM rjmcmahon via Starlink <
>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>>> communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>>
>>
>> When I was younger there was a standard way to do this. Fire alarms had a
>> dedicated pair directly to the fire department or a local alarm station.
>> This wasn't dial-tone, it was a DC pair that would drop a trouble
>> notification if DC was interrupted, and I think it would reverse polarity
>> to indicate alarm. If DC was interrupted, that would also turn off the
>> boiler in the building.
>>
>> Today my home fire alarms are wireless and have cellular back to their
>> main Comcast connection, and detect CO, smoke, and temperature. This would
>> not meet insurance requirements for a commercial building, they still have
>> all of the sensors wired, with cellular backup.
>>
>> I don't think you are considering what life-support-critical digital
>> communications would really cost. Start with metal conduit and
>> fire-resistant wiring throughout the structure. Provide redundant power for
>> *every* fan-out box (we just had a 24-hour power interruption here due
>> to storms). AT&T provides 4 hour power for "Lightspeed" tombstone boxes
>> that fan out telephone, beyond that a truck has to drive out and plug in a
>> generator, or you are out of luck if it's a wide-are outage like we just
>> had. Wire areas in a redundant loop rather than a tree. Supervise every
>> home so that interruptions are serviced automatically. Provide a 4-hour
>> SLA.
>>
>> The phone company used to do what you are asking for. The high prices
>> this required are the main reason that everyone has jumped off of using the
>> legacy telco for telephony.
>>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 7579 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[Robert McMahon]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 7461 bytes --]

Read the arguments on potable public water supplies. You're missing the forest per the trees.

Also, Comcast offers full wifi services. The dmarc at the property line and right of way is artificial.

The economics is a 100gb/s sfp. Not 2g  or 6g. I'm asking for a roof of shingles vs a thatch roof. Many may laugh until they realize we're talking about real life issues. A 100Gb/s link drives queues to empty. Compute moves to speed of causality. That's the best we can do today and it'll be the best done in 50 or 100 years from now, assuming the optics are pluggable.

We need to stop conflating capacity with latency. Doing so is a basic engineering flaw.

The fiber has basically infinite capacity.  Where it ends, where it starts and who gets to decide on the optics is a non trivial problem. And that choice matters. But hey, many men think it's their womb too, which is no longer funny.

I want 6 Gbs optics. You laugh. Comcast says I can't have it. Why am I not in charge of this choice?

Bob


On Mar 25, 2023, 3:50 PM, at 3:50 PM, dan <dandenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>I'm not quite following on this.  It's really not comcast's
>responsibility
>to do maintenance on old cables etc.  Once installed, those are
>fixtures
>and the responsibility of the building owner.    Comcast etc are only
>pulling wire in to enable their primary business of selling voice, tv,
>and
>data.  All of these other pieces are clearly the responsibility of the
>property owner to install.  Trying to put this sort of thing on an ISP
>would dramatically increase the cost of delivering services.
>
>I read the chat log and I would have closed it too.  An HOA is a
>business
>in legal terms. for profit or non-profit, but still a business.  The
>cost
>to bring all products to every home and business would dramatically
>increase the average cost of services.  The CSR offered a 2Gbit service
>and
>you replied that you want the lower latencies of the 6Gbit service for
>your
>fire alarm?  Firstly, why would the 2Gbit have lower latency than the
>6Gbit, and secondly how much data do you think a fire alarm uses?  As
>the
>CSR I would be telling jokes about you with my co-workers.  I'm not
>meaning
>to be too antagonistic here, but this is a bit over the top don't you
>think?  You're getting jostled around because you are demanding a
>service
>they don't offer at the address.  You could have taken the 2Gbit plan
>offer
>and been installed in a few days and still had a product that is
>literally
>1000x more than your fire circuit needs.  The moment you started in on
>the
>Boston fire I'd have been done.   Irrelevant and sensationalist.  Fire
>alarms in all 50 states require either a hard wired telephone line or a
>redundant data link (ISP+Cell for example) so the who 6Gbit to prevent
>everyone from dying line is so over the top it made me switch teams
>mid-read.
>
>"I dont have what you are asking for" / "connect me to someone who
>does" is
>the "Karen: I want to talk to your manager" equivalent for an ISP's CSR
>to
>hear.
>
>I could continue with how absurd a lot of what has been said is but I
>don't
>want kicked out of the group for being unfriendly so I'll let it be.
>
>On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 4:04 PM Robert McMahon
><rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
>wrote:
>
>> Hi Bruce,
>>
>> I think you may be the right guy to solve this. I too remember the
>days of
>> dry wire sold by the RBOCs.
>>
>> I found a structured wire fire alarm install to cost $100k for our
>> building or $20k per unit. The labor and materials is about $25k. The
>other
>> $75k is liability related costs, similar to a bike helmet, $10 in
>parts,
>> $40 in insurance. So it's not labor nor equipment that drives the
>expenses.
>> My opinion is poor people shouldn't have to pay for insurance to
>insurance
>> companies, companies that figure figures for a living.
>>
>> A digression: I could do an LMR 600 passive cable system looped with
>> Wilkinson power dividers, patch antennas and nests to protect the
>egress
>> escape ladder for about $10 to $15K. Don't need an SLA. We've
>basically
>> priced protecting human lives to only rich people.
>>
>> We need to use technology and our cleverness to fix this version of
>> "expense bloat."
>>
>> Look at Boston public water for an example. Way too expensive to pipe
>> water in from 15 miles away in the early days. So people who did it
>claimed
>> alcoholism (and that "immorality") would be eliminated by providing
>clean
>> and pure potable public water.  Alcholics would choose pathogen free
>water
>> over spirits. Rich people got enough water for themselves and even
>for
>> their private fountains so society stopped this initiative.
>>
>> It was a motivated doctor who taught rich people that their health
>was
>> tied to public health. And public health was being impacted because
>> pathogens being spread to poor people who didn't get potable public
>water
>> would by addressed by ubiquitous potable water supplies. The fire
>chief was
>> put in charge. See Ties That Bind
>>
>> https://upittpress.org/books/9780822961475/
>>
>> Now, in the U.S, most do get potable water even to flush a toilet.
>It's
>> taken for granted.
>>
>> I think it's on us to do similar for digital communication networks.
>> They're needed far beyond entertainment, and we need to get public
>safety
>> elements engaged too.
>>
>> Bob
>> On Mar 25, 2023, at 2:08 PM, Bruce Perens <bruce@perens.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 1:44 PM rjmcmahon via Starlink <
>>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>>>> communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>>>
>>>
>>> When I was younger there was a standard way to do this. Fire alarms
>had a
>>> dedicated pair directly to the fire department or a local alarm
>station.
>>> This wasn't dial-tone, it was a DC pair that would drop a trouble
>>> notification if DC was interrupted, and I think it would reverse
>polarity
>>> to indicate alarm. If DC was interrupted, that would also turn off
>the
>>> boiler in the building.
>>>
>>> Today my home fire alarms are wireless and have cellular back to
>their
>>> main Comcast connection, and detect CO, smoke, and temperature. This
>would
>>> not meet insurance requirements for a commercial building, they
>still have
>>> all of the sensors wired, with cellular backup.
>>>
>>> I don't think you are considering what life-support-critical digital
>>> communications would really cost. Start with metal conduit and
>>> fire-resistant wiring throughout the structure. Provide redundant
>power for
>>> *every* fan-out box (we just had a 24-hour power interruption here
>due
>>> to storms). AT&T provides 4 hour power for "Lightspeed" tombstone
>boxes
>>> that fan out telephone, beyond that a truck has to drive out and
>plug in a
>>> generator, or you are out of luck if it's a wide-are outage like we
>just
>>> had. Wire areas in a redundant loop rather than a tree. Supervise
>every
>>> home so that interruptions are serviced automatically. Provide a
>4-hour
>>> SLA.
>>>
>>> The phone company used to do what you are asking for. The high
>prices
>>> this required are the main reason that everyone has jumped off of
>using the
>>> legacy telco for telephony.
>>>
>>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 9690 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[David Lang]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 273 bytes --]

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Robert McMahon via Bloat wrote:

> The fiber has basically infinite capacity.

in theory, but once you start aggregating it and having to pay for equipment 
that can handle the rates, your 'infinite capaicty' starts to run out really 
fast.

David Lang

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 140 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[Robert McMahon]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 677 bytes --]

The primary cost is the optics. That's why they're p in sfp and pay go

Bob

On Mar 25, 2023, 4:35 PM, at 4:35 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>On Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Robert McMahon via Bloat wrote:
>
>> The fiber has basically infinite capacity.
>
>in theory, but once you start aggregating it and having to pay for
>equipment
>that can handle the rates, your 'infinite capaicty' starts to run out
>really
>fast.
>
>David Lang
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>_______________________________________________
>Bloat mailing list
>Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1124 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[Nathan Owens]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1335 bytes --]

Comcast's 6Gbps service is a niche product with probably <1000 customers.
It requires knowledge and persistence from the customer to actually get it
installed, a process that can take many months (It's basically MetroE). It
requires you to be within 1760ft of available fiber, with some limit on
install cost if trenching is required. In some cases, you may be able to
trench yourself, or cover some of the costs (usually thousands to tens of
thousands).

On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 5:04 PM Robert McMahon via Bloat <
bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> The primary cost is the optics. That's why they're p in sfp and pay go
>
> Bob
> On Mar 25, 2023, at 4:35 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Robert McMahon via Bloat wrote:
>>
>>  The fiber has basically infinite capacity.
>>>
>>
>> in theory, but once you start aggregating it and having to pay for equipment
>> that can handle the rates, your 'infinite capaicty' starts to run out really
>> fast.
>>
>> David Lang
>>
>> ------------------------------
>>
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>
>> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2316 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[Robert McMahon]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2602 bytes --]

Our building is 100 meters from multiple fallow strands. I've got the kmz map from the dark fiber guys.

The juniper switch was designed in 2012 and used old mfg processes, not sure the nanometers but likely 28. Newer ASICS improve power per bit per distance dramatically simply by using current foundries 5nm on the way to 3nm. Then on top of that there is a lot of NRE to further reduce power. That's why a 100Gb/s without gear boxes can run at 1W for all parts, serdes, laser etc and at distance. Not 5kW like a tower.

2g to 6g really adds nothing.  My point was to see how flexible they were in optics per a customer ask. I suspect both use 10g and rate limiting. 10G optic parts are a decade old now. No improvements coming in 10G. Kinda like buying one of the last incandescent bulbs. Best to go led if possible.

FiWi connected via 100Gb/s is the answer for the next ten years. The last mile providers will figure it out if given quality information and if they ask the right questions and demand the optimal metrics be used. They may have fallen victims to their own marketing. Hard to know from the outside.

Bob

On Mar 25, 2023, 5:07 PM, at 5:07 PM, Nathan Owens <nathan@nathan.io> wrote:
>Comcast's 6Gbps service is a niche product with probably <1000
>customers.
>It requires knowledge and persistence from the customer to actually get
>it
>installed, a process that can take many months (It's basically MetroE).
>It
>requires you to be within 1760ft of available fiber, with some limit on
>install cost if trenching is required. In some cases, you may be able
>to
>trench yourself, or cover some of the costs (usually thousands to tens
>of
>thousands).
>
>On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 5:04 PM Robert McMahon via Bloat <
>bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> The primary cost is the optics. That's why they're p in sfp and pay
>go
>>
>> Bob
>> On Mar 25, 2023, at 4:35 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Robert McMahon via Bloat wrote:
>>>
>>>  The fiber has basically infinite capacity.
>>>>
>>>
>>> in theory, but once you start aggregating it and having to pay for
>equipment
>>> that can handle the rates, your 'infinite capaicty' starts to run
>out really
>>> fast.
>>>
>>> David Lang
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> Bloat mailing list
>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4106 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[Livingood, Jason]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2665 bytes --]

Happy to help (you can ping me off-list). The main products are DOCSIS and PON these days and it kind of depends where you are, whether it is a new build, etc. As others said, it gets super complicated in MDUs and the infrastructure in place and the building agreements vary quite a bit.

Jason

From: Bloat <bloat-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of Nathan Owens via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Reply-To: Nathan Owens <nathan@nathan.io>
Date: Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 09:07
To: Robert McMahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
Cc: Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net>, dan <dandenson@gmail.com>, Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>, Bruce Perens <bruce@perens.com>, libreqos <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>, Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Starlink] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

Comcast's 6Gbps service is a niche product with probably <1000 customers. It requires knowledge and persistence from the customer to actually get it installed, a process that can take many months (It's basically MetroE). It requires you to be within 1760ft of available fiber, with some limit on install cost if trenching is required. In some cases, you may be able to trench yourself, or cover some of the costs (usually thousands to tens of thousands).

On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 5:04 PM Robert McMahon via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:
The primary cost is the optics. That's why they're p in sfp and pay go
Bob
On Mar 25, 2023, at 4:35 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm<mailto:david@lang.hm>> wrote:

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Robert McMahon via Bloat wrote:

 The fiber has basically infinite capacity.

in theory, but once you start aggregating it and having to pay for equipment
that can handle the rates, your 'infinite capaicty' starts to run out really
fast.

David Lang

________________________________

Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!EOSY1k9O_PBuVuNNoTVKtyE8K5P8zDDQD-_ns2m_whJemleFOcMrd25veZFZqbIvJ292Ut9e47Owc0kkGpayyP8rW_bkOQ$>
_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!EOSY1k9O_PBuVuNNoTVKtyE8K5P8zDDQD-_ns2m_whJemleFOcMrd25veZFZqbIvJ292Ut9e47Owc0kkGpayyP8rW_bkOQ$>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 6745 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[rjmcmahon]

Thanks for this. Yeah, I can understand MDUs are complex and present 
unique issues for both their Boards and companies to service them.  
Condo trusts, LLC non profits, co-ops, etc. Too many attorneys to boot. 
My attorney fees cost more than my training youth to install FiWi infra. 
The expensive, existing cos are asking $80K per building. The fire alarm 
installer is asking $100K per building. I figure we can get both for 
less than $180K but it's going to take some figuring out. And once we 
sink the money, it needs to be world-class with swappable parts. Others 
may then notice and follow suit.

Then for dark fiber to a private colo about 1.5 miles away the ask is 
$5K per month. Buy my own switch and SFPs. Peering and ISP services are 
not included.

So I do see the value Comcast brings. I think a challenge is that 
different options are needed for different customers. That's why I think 
pluggable optics, serdes and cmos radios are critical to the design for 
when we eventually go full fiber & wireless for the last meters.

Bob
> Happy to help (you can ping me off-list). The main products are DOCSIS
> and PON these days and it kind of depends where you are, whether it is
> a new build, etc. As others said, it gets super complicated in MDUs
> and the infrastructure in place and the building agreements vary quite
> a bit.
> 
> Jason
> 
> From: Bloat <bloat-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of Nathan
> Owens via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Reply-To: Nathan Owens <nathan@nathan.io>
> Date: Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 09:07
> To: Robert McMahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
> Cc: Rpm <rpm@lists.bufferbloat.net>, dan <dandenson@gmail.com>,
> Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>, Bruce Perens
> <bruce@perens.com>, libreqos <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>, Dave
> Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, bloat
> <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: [Bloat] [Starlink] On fiber as critical infrastructure
> w/Comcast chat
> 
> Comcast's 6Gbps service is a niche product with probably <1000
> customers. It requires knowledge and persistence from the customer to
> actually get it installed, a process that can take many months (It's
> basically MetroE). It requires you to be within 1760ft of available
> fiber, with some limit on install cost if trenching is required. In
> some cases, you may be able to trench yourself, or cover some of the
> costs (usually thousands to tens of thousands).
> 
> On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 5:04 PM Robert McMahon via Bloat
> <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
>> The primary cost is the optics. That's why they're p in sfp and pay
>> go
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> On Mar 25, 2023, at 4:35 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>> 
>> On Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Robert McMahon via Bloat wrote:
>> 
>> The fiber has basically infinite capacity.
>> 
>> in theory, but once you start aggregating it and having to pay for
>> equipment
>> that can handle the rates, your 'infinite capaicty' starts to run
>> out really
>> fast.
>> 
>> David Lang
>> 
>> -------------------------
>> 
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat [1]
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat [1]
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat__;!!CQl3mcHX2A!EOSY1k9O_PBuVuNNoTVKtyE8K5P8zDDQD-_ns2m_whJemleFOcMrd25veZFZqbIvJ292Ut9e47Owc0kkGpayyP8rW_bkOQ$

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[David Lang]

No, the primary cost (other than laying the fiber) is in the electronics to 
route the packets around once they leave the optics, and the upstream bandwith 
and peering to other ISPs.

laying the fiber is expensive, optics are trivially cheap in comparison, but 
while the theoretical bandwidth of the fiber is huge, that's only for the one 
hop, once you get past that hop and have to deal with the aggregate bandwidth of 
multiple endpoints, something has to give.

David Lang

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Robert McMahon wrote:

> The primary cost is the optics. That's why they're p in sfp and pay go
>
> Bob
>
> On Mar 25, 2023, 4:35 PM, at 4:35 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Robert McMahon via Bloat wrote:
>>
>>> The fiber has basically infinite capacity.
>>
>> in theory, but once you start aggregating it and having to pay for
>> equipment
>> that can handle the rates, your 'infinite capaicty' starts to run out
>> really
>> fast.
>>
>> David Lang
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Bloat mailing list
>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[Robert McMahon]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1751 bytes --]

Sure, this isn't about peering. It's about treating last mile infrastructure as critical infrastructure and paying those who work on it, construct it, maintain it, manage it, to meet high standards like we try to do for hospitals and water supplies.

⁣Peering, ad insertions, etc. are important but not relevant to this analysis unless I'm missing something.

Bob

On Mar 25, 2023, 5:28 PM, at 5:28 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>No, the primary cost (other than laying the fiber) is in the
>electronics to
>route the packets around once they leave the optics, and the upstream
>bandwith
>and peering to other ISPs.
>
>laying the fiber is expensive, optics are trivially cheap in
>comparison, but
>while the theoretical bandwidth of the fiber is huge, that's only for
>the one
>hop, once you get past that hop and have to deal with the aggregate
>bandwidth of
>multiple endpoints, something has to give.
>
>David Lang
>
>On Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Robert McMahon wrote:
>
>> The primary cost is the optics. That's why they're p in sfp and pay
>go
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> On Mar 25, 2023, 4:35 PM, at 4:35 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>wrote:
>>> On Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Robert McMahon via Bloat wrote:
>>>
>>>> The fiber has basically infinite capacity.
>>>
>>> in theory, but once you start aggregating it and having to pay for
>>> equipment
>>> that can handle the rates, your 'infinite capaicty' starts to run
>out
>>> really
>>> fast.
>>>
>>> David Lang
>>>
>>>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Bloat mailing list
>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat
>>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2542 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[Bruce Perens]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2196 bytes --]

On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 3:04 PM Robert McMahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
wrote:

> My opinion is poor people shouldn't have to pay for insurance to insurance
> companies, companies that figure figures for a living.
>

Be sure to be out there campaigning at every election. Really off-topic,
but IMO the current scheme of health insurance keeps many people from going
into their own business, and keeps them working for large companies. I'm
sure that's deliberate. Valerie works for the University, which is the only
thing that kept me under health insurance - I'm just a consultant.
California would give me a plan today, but most states would not.
November's heart attack cost $359K, the insurance company negotiated 60K
away and paid the rest, charging me $125. Prices aren't going to fall
unless we get single-payer like most civilized countries. Somebody *does *have
to pay for health care, though, and the choices are out of your pocket, or
in your taxes, or through inflation.

A digression: I could do an LMR 600 passive cable system looped with
> Wilkinson power dividers, patch antennas and nests to protect the egress
> escape ladder for about $10 to $15K. Don't need an SLA. We've basically
> priced protecting human lives to only rich people.
>

If it's going indoors between the units, you need plenum-rated cable. LMR
is really pricey in plenum-rated, RG-6 is more than adequate and more
reasonably priced. RF between units is a legacy medium, though, there
should be plenum-rated CAT-8. The dividers can be of the sort specified for
cable TV. Wilkinson would be overkill and this is just a tiny toroid
transformer in the box.

The very best way to future proof is not with any sort of wire or fiber,
but with conduit with lots of room, that can be re-pulled.

I think it's on us to do similar for digital communication networks.
> They're needed far beyond entertainment, and we need to get public safety
> elements engaged too.
>

I'm really dubious. Anyone who has to cope with the cost is going to hear
the siren call of wireless no matter how inappropriate it is to the task.
You will be lucky if fiber makes it to urban buildings.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3046 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[David Lang]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2824 bytes --]

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Bruce Perens via Bloat wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 3:04 PM Robert McMahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
> wrote:
>
>> My opinion is poor people shouldn't have to pay for insurance to insurance
>> companies, companies that figure figures for a living.
>>
>
> Be sure to be out there campaigning at every election. Really off-topic,
> but IMO the current scheme of health insurance keeps many people from going
> into their own business, and keeps them working for large companies. I'm
> sure that's deliberate. Valerie works for the University, which is the only
> thing that kept me under health insurance - I'm just a consultant.
> California would give me a plan today, but most states would not.
> November's heart attack cost $359K, the insurance company negotiated 60K
> away and paid the rest, charging me $125. Prices aren't going to fall
> unless we get single-payer like most civilized countries. Somebody *does *have
> to pay for health care, though, and the choices are out of your pocket, or
> in your taxes, or through inflation.

History, employer provided health insurance started in WWII as a way for 
companies to get around government wage controls to attract employees.

I've been saying for a long time that if I could pay what the insurance 
companies pay, I wouldn't need health insurance (other than a catesrophic policy 
that didn't kick in until $10k or something like that)

my suggestion (which I spout off when the topic comes up to get more people to 
think about in the hope that the idea spreads) is that if you are willing to pay 
at the time of service (including by CC) you should not have to pay more than x% 
(50-100% could even be reasonable) more than the lowest negotiated price that 
they have with any insurance company (not counting government run 
medicade/medicare, those aren't negotiations)

rationale
1. bill collection is expensive (including the cost of people who never 
pay), so the price that they have to charge needs to account for these losses.

2. the 'list price' is getting inflated so that they can claim that they are 
getting a huge discount (so if the actual cost of the service to the provider 
goes up 10%, and the insurance company price negotiator wants an extra 10% 
discount this year, the service provider just increases the list price by 20% 
and everyone is happy, except the person paying list price out of pocket)

3. the reason for allowing > lowest negotiated prices is that there are some 
legtimate reasons for discounts (volume, directing people to you) that don't 
come into play for individuals. Given that I've seen negotiated prices around 
10% of list price, being able to pay 15-20% of list price is still such a huge 
win that it's acceptable to still be up to double the insurance negotiated 
minimum.

David Lang

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 140 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[Robert McMahon]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3557 bytes --]

Sorry about your Healthcare experiences. It sucks it's rationed. Far from perfect. We've got a ways to go for sure. Thankfully, today's medical communities aren't using shit ladder water sources. Previous generations of leaders in their field got that right.


My view is that leaders in our industry actually lead and stop making excuses for about the world sucks and it's not doable. I know it sucks for many, been there done that. Let's focus our energies every day on making it better to the extent we can.

Then go to our graves in repose with Thomas Grey's epitaph

THE EPITAPH
Here rests his head upon the lap of Earth
       A youth to Fortune and to Fame unknown.
Fair Science frown'd not on his humble birth,
       And Melancholy mark'd him for her own.

Large was his bounty, and his soul sincere,
       Heav'n did a recompense as largely send:
He gave to Mis'ry all he had, a tear,
       He gain'd from Heav'n ('twas all he wish'd) a friend.

No farther seek his merits to disclose,
       Or draw his frailties from their dread abode,
(There they alike in trembling hope repose)
       The bosom of his Father and his God.

Bob

On Mar 25, 2023, 3:57 PM, at 3:57 PM, Bruce Perens <bruce@perens.com> wrote:
>On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 3:04 PM Robert McMahon
><rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
>wrote:
>
>> My opinion is poor people shouldn't have to pay for insurance to
>insurance
>> companies, companies that figure figures for a living.
>>
>
>Be sure to be out there campaigning at every election. Really
>off-topic,
>but IMO the current scheme of health insurance keeps many people from
>going
>into their own business, and keeps them working for large companies.
>I'm
>sure that's deliberate. Valerie works for the University, which is the
>only
>thing that kept me under health insurance - I'm just a consultant.
>California would give me a plan today, but most states would not.
>November's heart attack cost $359K, the insurance company negotiated
>60K
>away and paid the rest, charging me $125. Prices aren't going to fall
>unless we get single-payer like most civilized countries. Somebody
>*does *have
>to pay for health care, though, and the choices are out of your pocket,
>or
>in your taxes, or through inflation.
>
>A digression: I could do an LMR 600 passive cable system looped with
>> Wilkinson power dividers, patch antennas and nests to protect the
>egress
>> escape ladder for about $10 to $15K. Don't need an SLA. We've
>basically
>> priced protecting human lives to only rich people.
>>
>
>If it's going indoors between the units, you need plenum-rated cable.
>LMR
>is really pricey in plenum-rated, RG-6 is more than adequate and more
>reasonably priced. RF between units is a legacy medium, though, there
>should be plenum-rated CAT-8. The dividers can be of the sort specified
>for
>cable TV. Wilkinson would be overkill and this is just a tiny toroid
>transformer in the box.
>
>The very best way to future proof is not with any sort of wire or
>fiber,
>but with conduit with lots of room, that can be re-pulled.
>
>I think it's on us to do similar for digital communication networks.
>> They're needed far beyond entertainment, and we need to get public
>safety
>> elements engaged too.
>>
>
>I'm really dubious. Anyone who has to cope with the cost is going to
>hear
>the siren call of wireless no matter how inappropriate it is to the
>task.
>You will be lucky if fiber makes it to urban buildings.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5324 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[David Lang]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4118 bytes --]

if you want to eliminate insurance, then you need to eliminate the liability, 
which I don't think you want to do if you want to claim that this is 'life 
critical'

David Lang

On Sat, 25 Mar 2023, Robert McMahon via Bloat wrote:

> Hi Bruce,
>
> I think you may be the right guy to solve this. I too remember the days of dry wire sold by the RBOCs.
>
> I found a structured wire fire alarm install to cost $100k for our building or $20k per unit. The labor and materials is about $25k. The other $75k is liability related costs, similar to a bike helmet, $10 in parts, $40 in insurance. So it's not labor nor equipment that drives the expenses. My opinion is poor people shouldn't have to pay for insurance to insurance companies, companies that figure figures for a living.
>
> A digression: I could do an LMR 600 passive cable system looped with Wilkinson power dividers, patch antennas and nests to protect the egress escape ladder for about $10 to $15K. Don't need an SLA. We've basically priced protecting human lives to only rich people.
>
> We need to use technology and our cleverness to fix this version of "expense bloat."
>
> Look at Boston public water for an example. Way too expensive to pipe water in from 15 miles away in the early days. So people who did it claimed alcoholism (and that "immorality") would be eliminated by providing clean and pure potable public water.  Alcholics would choose pathogen free water over spirits. Rich people got enough water for themselves and even for their private fountains so society stopped this initiative.
>
> It was a motivated doctor who taught rich people that their health was tied to public health. And public health was being impacted because pathogens being spread to poor people who didn't get potable public water would by addressed by ubiquitous potable water supplies. The fire chief was put in charge. See Ties That Bind
>
> https://upittpress.org/books/9780822961475/
>
> Now, in the U.S, most do get potable water even to flush a toilet. It's taken for granted.
>
> I think it's on us to do similar for digital communication networks. They're needed far beyond entertainment, and we need to get public safety elements engaged too.
>
> Bob
>
> On Mar 25, 2023, 2:08 PM, at 2:08 PM, Bruce Perens <bruce@perens.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Mar 25, 2023 at 1:44 PM rjmcmahon via Starlink <
>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>>> communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>>
>>
>> When I was younger there was a standard way to do this. Fire alarms had
>> a
>> dedicated pair directly to the fire department or a local alarm
>> station.
>> This wasn't dial-tone, it was a DC pair that would drop a trouble
>> notification if DC was interrupted, and I think it would reverse
>> polarity
>> to indicate alarm. If DC was interrupted, that would also turn off the
>> boiler in the building.
>>
>> Today my home fire alarms are wireless and have cellular back to their
>> main
>> Comcast connection, and detect CO, smoke, and temperature. This would
>> not
>> meet insurance requirements for a commercial building, they still have
>> all
>> of the sensors wired, with cellular backup.
>>
>> I don't think you are considering what life-support-critical digital
>> communications would really cost. Start with metal conduit and
>> fire-resistant wiring throughout the structure. Provide redundant power
>> for
>> *every* fan-out box (we just had a 24-hour power interruption here due
>> to
>> storms). AT&T provides 4 hour power for "Lightspeed" tombstone boxes
>> that
>> fan out telephone, beyond that a truck has to drive out and plug in a
>> generator, or you are out of luck if it's a wide-are outage like we
>> just
>> had. Wire areas in a redundant loop rather than a tree. Supervise every
>> home so that interruptions are serviced automatically. Provide a 4-hour
>> SLA.
>>
>> The phone company used to do what you are asking for. The high prices
>> this
>> required are the main reason that everyone has jumped off of using the
>> legacy telco for telephony.
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 140 bytes --]

_______________________________________________
Bloat mailing list
Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[rjmcmahon]

I don't think so. The govt. just bailed out SVB for billionaires who 
were woefully underinsured. The claim is that it protected our financial 
system. Their risk officers didn't price in inflation and those impacts, 
i.e. they eliminated insurance without eliminating the liability.

Texas govt sells windstorm insurance https://www.twia.org/ so the real 
estate industry will build houses in Hurricane prone areas. Society is 
good with that.

Liabilities that will stop people from installing quality FiWi fire 
alarms are a failure that needs to be fixed too.

We've got a lot of ground to cover.

Bob

> if you want to eliminate insurance, then you need to eliminate the
> liability, which I don't think you want to do if you want to claim
> that this is 'life critical'
> 
> David Lang

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[Sebastian Moeller]

Hi Bob,


> On Mar 25, 2023, at 21:43, rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
> 
> It's not just one phone call. I've been figuring this out for about two years now. I've been working with some strategic people in Boston, colos & dark fiber providers, and professional installers that wired up many of the Boston universities, some universities themselves to offer co-ops to students to run networsk, trainings for DIC and other high value IoT offerings, blue collar principals (with staffs of about 100) to help them learn to install fiber and provide better jobs for their employees.
> 
> My conclusion is that Comcast is best suited for the job as the broadband provider, at least in Boston, for multiple reasons. One chat isn't going to block me ;)

	Yes, but they clearly are not the party best selected to to the internal wiring... this is a question of incentives and cost... if you pay their technicians by the hour to do the internal wiring according to your plan (assuming that they would accept that) then your goals are aligned, if the cost of the installation is to be carried by the ISP, they likely are motivated to the the kind of job I saw in California*.
	Over here the situation is slightly different, in-house cabling from the first demarking socket (which is considered to be ISP owned) is clearly the responsibility of the owner/resident not the ISP. ISPs offer to route cables, but on a per-hour basis, or for MDUs often used to make contracts with the owner that they would build the internal wiring (in an agreed upon fashion) for the right to be sole provider of e.g. cable TV services (with the cable fees mandatorily folded into the rent) for a fixed multi-year period (10-15 IIRC), after that the plant would end-up property of the building owner. Recent changes in law made the "mandatory cable fees as part of the rent" much harder/impossible, turning the in-house wiring back into an owner/resident problem.


> 
> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital communications infrastructure as life support critical.

	Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different perspective. 
	Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber access lines would also last for decades requiring no active component changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management. (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life times of decades).


> It reminds me of Elon Musk and his claims on FSD.

	;) I had to look up FSD, I guess full self driving (aka pie-in-the-sky)?


> I could do the whole thing myself - but that's not going to achieve what's needed. We need systems that our loved ones can call and those systems will care for them. Similar to how the medical community works, though imperfect, in caring for our loved one's and their healths.

	I think I get your point. The question is how do we get from where we are now to that place your are describing here and in the FiWi concept?


> I think we all are responsible for changing our belief sets & developing ourselves to better serve others. Most won't act until they can actually see what's possible. So let's start to show them.

	Sure, having real implemented examples always helps!

Regards
	Sebastian


> 
> Bob


P.S.: Bruce's point about placing ducts/conduits seems like to only way to gain some future-proofeness. For multi-story and/or multi-dweller units this introduces the question how to stop fire using these conduits to "jump" between levels, but I assume that is a solved problem already, and can be squelches with throwing money in its direction.



*)A IIRC charter technician routing coaxial cable on the outside of the two story building and drilling through the (wooden) wall to set the cable socket inside, all the while casually cutting the Dish coaxial cable that was still connected to a satellite dish... Not that I cared, we were using ADSL at the time, and in accordance with the old "when in Rome..." rule, I bridged over the deteriorated in-house phone wiring by running a 30m Cat5 cable on the outside of the building to the first hand-over box.


> 
>> Hi Bob,
>> somewhat sad. Have you considered that your described requirements and
>> the use-case might be outside of the mass-market envelope for which
>> the big ISPs taylor/rig their processes? Maybe, not sure that is an
>> option, if you approach this as a "business"* asking for a fiber
>> uplink for an already "wired" 5 unit property you might get better
>> service? You still would need to do the in-house re-wiring, but you
>> likely would avoid scripted hot-lines that hang up when in the
>> allotted time the agent sees little chance of "closing" the call. All
>> (big) ISPs I know treat hotline as a cost factor and not as the first
>> line of customer retention...
>> I would also not be amazed if Boston had smaller ISPs that are willing
>> and able to listen to customers (but that might be a bit more
>> expensive than the big ISPs).
>> That or try to get your foot into Comcast's PR department to sell them
>> on the "reference installation" for all Boston historic buildings, so
>> they can offset the custom tailoring effort with the expected good
>> press of doing the "right thing" publicly.
>> Good luck
>> 	Sebastian
>> *) I understand you are not, but I assume the business units to have
>> more leeway to actually offer more bespoke solutions than the likely
>> cost-optimized to Mars and back residental customer unit.
>>> On Mar 25, 2023, at 20:39, rjmcmahon via Bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>> Hi All,
>>> I've been trying to modernize a building in Boston where I'm an HOA board member over the last 18 mos. I perceive the broadband network as a critical infrastructure to our 5 unit building.
>>> Unfortunately, Comcast staff doesn't seem to agree. The agent basically closed the chat on me mid-stream (chat attached.) I've been at this for about 18 mos now.
>>> While I think bufferbloat is a big issue, the bigger issue is that our last-mile providers must change their cultures to understand that life support use cases that require proper pathways, conduits & cabling can no longer be ignored. These buildings have coaxial thrown over the exterior walls done in the 80s then drilling holes without consideration of structures. This and the lack of environmental protections for our HOA's critical infrastructure is disheartening. It's past time to remove this shoddy work on our building and all buildings in Boston as well as across the globe.
>>> My hope was by now I'd have shown through actions what a historic building in Boston looks like when we, as humans in our short lives, act as both stewards of history and as responsible guardians to those that share living spaces and neighborhoods today & tomorrow. Motivating humans to better serve one another is hard.
>>> Bob<comcast.pdf>_______________________________________________
>>> Bloat mailing list
>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[rjmcmahon]

On who pays & does the internal wiring: I agree & agree. This is a capex 
spend and asset improvement so payments come from the property owner(s) 
somehow. My thoughts are this is a new industry for the trades. My 
interactions with many in their 20s suggest that starting or working for 
a fiber & wifi install company is something they'd like.

On investor owned vs publicly owned: The broadband providers in the U.S. 
are mostly investor owned. Our water supplies are publicly owned but in 
Europe mostly privately owned. Similar, but not exact, for medical. 
These outcomes are per critical junctures, e.g. London was bombed in 
WWII but the U.S. really wasn't so British society turned to their govt 
to provide the NHS. So, I don't think there is a universal answer.

Over the last 20+ years in the U.S., the major investment in broadband 
has been investor-owned companies and not from the regulated RBOCs.

Note: The point of this thread is to show the state of where we are now 
to help us focus our energies on the next ten years. That's what my plan 
is, leave things a little better than what it was when we showed up.

Bob

> Hi Bob,
> 
> 
>> On Mar 25, 2023, at 21:43, rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
>> 
>> It's not just one phone call. I've been figuring this out for about 
>> two years now. I've been working with some strategic people in Boston, 
>> colos & dark fiber providers, and professional installers that wired 
>> up many of the Boston universities, some universities themselves to 
>> offer co-ops to students to run networsk, trainings for DIC and other 
>> high value IoT offerings, blue collar principals (with staffs of about 
>> 100) to help them learn to install fiber and provide better jobs for 
>> their employees.
>> 
>> My conclusion is that Comcast is best suited for the job as the 
>> broadband provider, at least in Boston, for multiple reasons. One chat 
>> isn't going to block me ;)
> 
> 	Yes, but they clearly are not the party best selected to to the
> internal wiring... this is a question of incentives and cost... if you
> pay their technicians by the hour to do the internal wiring according
> to your plan (assuming that they would accept that) then your goals
> are aligned, if the cost of the installation is to be carried by the
> ISP, they likely are motivated to the the kind of job I saw in
> California*.
> 	Over here the situation is slightly different, in-house cabling from
> the first demarking socket (which is considered to be ISP owned) is
> clearly the responsibility of the owner/resident not the ISP. ISPs
> offer to route cables, but on a per-hour basis, or for MDUs often used
> to make contracts with the owner that they would build the internal
> wiring (in an agreed upon fashion) for the right to be sole provider
> of e.g. cable TV services (with the cable fees mandatorily folded into
> the rent) for a fixed multi-year period (10-15 IIRC), after that the
> plant would end-up property of the building owner. Recent changes in
> law made the "mandatory cable fees as part of the rent" much
> harder/impossible, turning the in-house wiring back into an
> owner/resident problem.
> 
> 
>> 
>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital 
>> communications infrastructure as life support critical.
> 
> 	Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water (fresh
> and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is mostly not
> critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in that
> direction, so it is time to look at that from a different perspective.
> 	Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into
> communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other
> critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP
> fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable
> way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the
> while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this
> is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has
> beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber
> access lines would also last for decades requiring no active component
> changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management.
> (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these
> typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life
> times of decades).
> 
> 
>> It reminds me of Elon Musk and his claims on FSD.
> 
> 	;) I had to look up FSD, I guess full self driving (aka 
> pie-in-the-sky)?
> 
> 
>> I could do the whole thing myself - but that's not going to achieve 
>> what's needed. We need systems that our loved ones can call and those 
>> systems will care for them. Similar to how the medical community 
>> works, though imperfect, in caring for our loved one's and their 
>> healths.
> 
> 	I think I get your point. The question is how do we get from where we
> are now to that place your are describing here and in the FiWi
> concept?
> 
> 
>> I think we all are responsible for changing our belief sets & 
>> developing ourselves to better serve others. Most won't act until they 
>> can actually see what's possible. So let's start to show them.
> 
> 	Sure, having real implemented examples always helps!
> 
> Regards
> 	Sebastian
> 
> 
>> 
>> Bob
> 
> 
> P.S.: Bruce's point about placing ducts/conduits seems like to only
> way to gain some future-proofeness. For multi-story and/or
> multi-dweller units this introduces the question how to stop fire
> using these conduits to "jump" between levels, but I assume that is a
> solved problem already, and can be squelches with throwing money in
> its direction.
> 
> 
> 
> *)A IIRC charter technician routing coaxial cable on the outside of
> the two story building and drilling through the (wooden) wall to set
> the cable socket inside, all the while casually cutting the Dish
> coaxial cable that was still connected to a satellite dish... Not that
> I cared, we were using ADSL at the time, and in accordance with the
> old "when in Rome..." rule, I bridged over the deteriorated in-house
> phone wiring by running a 30m Cat5 cable on the outside of the
> building to the first hand-over box.
> 
> 
>> 
>>> Hi Bob,
>>> somewhat sad. Have you considered that your described requirements 
>>> and
>>> the use-case might be outside of the mass-market envelope for which
>>> the big ISPs taylor/rig their processes? Maybe, not sure that is an
>>> option, if you approach this as a "business"* asking for a fiber
>>> uplink for an already "wired" 5 unit property you might get better
>>> service? You still would need to do the in-house re-wiring, but you
>>> likely would avoid scripted hot-lines that hang up when in the
>>> allotted time the agent sees little chance of "closing" the call. All
>>> (big) ISPs I know treat hotline as a cost factor and not as the first
>>> line of customer retention...
>>> I would also not be amazed if Boston had smaller ISPs that are 
>>> willing
>>> and able to listen to customers (but that might be a bit more
>>> expensive than the big ISPs).
>>> That or try to get your foot into Comcast's PR department to sell 
>>> them
>>> on the "reference installation" for all Boston historic buildings, so
>>> they can offset the custom tailoring effort with the expected good
>>> press of doing the "right thing" publicly.
>>> Good luck
>>> 	Sebastian
>>> *) I understand you are not, but I assume the business units to have
>>> more leeway to actually offer more bespoke solutions than the likely
>>> cost-optimized to Mars and back residental customer unit.
>>>> On Mar 25, 2023, at 20:39, rjmcmahon via Bloat 
>>>> <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>> Hi All,
>>>> I've been trying to modernize a building in Boston where I'm an HOA 
>>>> board member over the last 18 mos. I perceive the broadband network 
>>>> as a critical infrastructure to our 5 unit building.
>>>> Unfortunately, Comcast staff doesn't seem to agree. The agent 
>>>> basically closed the chat on me mid-stream (chat attached.) I've 
>>>> been at this for about 18 mos now.
>>>> While I think bufferbloat is a big issue, the bigger issue is that 
>>>> our last-mile providers must change their cultures to understand 
>>>> that life support use cases that require proper pathways, conduits & 
>>>> cabling can no longer be ignored. These buildings have coaxial 
>>>> thrown over the exterior walls done in the 80s then drilling holes 
>>>> without consideration of structures. This and the lack of 
>>>> environmental protections for our HOA's critical infrastructure is 
>>>> disheartening. It's past time to remove this shoddy work on our 
>>>> building and all buildings in Boston as well as across the globe.
>>>> My hope was by now I'd have shown through actions what a historic 
>>>> building in Boston looks like when we, as humans in our short lives, 
>>>> act as both stewards of history and as responsible guardians to 
>>>> those that share living spaces and neighborhoods today & tomorrow. 
>>>> Motivating humans to better serve one another is hard.
>>>> Bob<comcast.pdf>_______________________________________________
>>>> Bloat mailing list
>>>> Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[David Lang]

On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:

>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>
> 	Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different perspective.
> 	Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber access lines would also last for decades requiring no active component changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management. (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life times of decades).

This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing such a 
rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in many states have 
gotten laws created that prohibit towns from building such systems.

David Lang

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[Sebastian Moeller]

Hi David,


> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
> 
> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:
> 
>>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>> 
>> 	Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different perspective.
>> 	Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber access lines would also last for decades requiring no active component changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management. (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life times of decades).
> 
> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in many states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from building such systems.

	A resistance that in the current system is understandable*... btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just think that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we want actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place to implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple ISPs running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There are two ways I see to address this structural problem:
a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors for "reasonable" prices
b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain the access network

None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we already see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a spanner into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, but will not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as would be possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My subjective preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would offer a level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do best, offer internet access service while not pushing the cost of the access network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow a fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to convert to FTTH first....

However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I understand it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses hooked up to the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house network design in a future-proof way...

Regards
	Sebastian


*) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing, just that I can see why it is happening.


> 
> David Lang

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[David Lang]

On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller wrote:

>> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:
>>
>>>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>>>
>>> 	Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different perspective.
>>> 	Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber access lines would also last for decades requiring no active component changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management. (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life times of decades).
>>
>> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in many states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from building such systems.
>
> 	A resistance that in the current system is understandable*... btw, my 
> point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just think that the access 
> network is more of a natural monopoly and if we want actual ISP competition, 
> the access network is the wrong place to implement it... as it is unlikely 
> that we will see multiple ISPs running independent fibers to all/most dwelling 
> units... There are two ways I see to address this structural problem:
>
> a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors for "reasonable" prices
> b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain the access network

In my town, the city is building the network, connecting every house, and then 
there are going to be multiple ISPs available (at least 3 that I've seen, I 
haven't dug into it since I'm not yet connected)

David Lang

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[Larry Press]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4842 bytes --]

Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class "textbook":
https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html

[https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-29b6JXMZN4g/U6nd1vJCr4I/AAAAAAAAauY/G4f091mDI80/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/stockholm.png]<https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html>
Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success<https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html>
The Stokab report should be required reading for all local government officials. Stockholm is one of the  top Internet cities in the worl...
cis471.blogspot.com


________________________________
From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM
To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
Cc: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>; Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>; libreqos <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>; bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

Hi David,


> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:
>
>>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>>
>>       Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different perspective.
>>       Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber access lines would also last for decades requiring no active component changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management. (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life times of decades).
>
> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in many states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from building such systems.

        A resistance that in the current system is understandable*... btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just think that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we want actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place to implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple ISPs running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There are two ways I see to address this structural problem:
a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors for "reasonable" prices
b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain the access network

None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we already see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a spanner into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, but will not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as would be possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My subjective preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would offer a level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do best, offer internet access service while not pushing the cost of the access network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow a fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to convert to FTTH first....

However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I understand it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses hooked up to the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house network design in a future-proof way...

Regards
        Sebastian


*) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing, just that I can see why it is happening.


>
> David Lang

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 8863 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[rjmcmahon]

Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get this 
(structural separation) right.

Pre-coaxial cable & contract carriage, the FCC licensed spectrum to the 
major media companies and placed a news obligation on them for these OTA 
rights. A society can't run a democracy well without quality and factual 
information to the constituents. Sadly, contract carriage got rid of 
that news as a public service obligation as predicted by Eli Noam. 
http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html Hence we get January 
6th and an insurrection.

It takes a staff of 300 to produce 30 minutes of news three times a day. 
The co-axial franchise agreements per each city traded this obligation 
for a community access channel and a small studio, and annual franchise 
fees. History has shown this is insufficient for a city to provide 
quality news to its citizens. Community access channels failed 
miserably.

Another requirement was two cables so there would be "competition" in 
the coaxial offerings. This rarely happened because of natural monopoly 
both in the last mile and in negotiating broadcast rights (mostly for 
sports.) There is only one broadcast rights winner, e.g. NBC for the 
Olympics, and only one last mile winner. That's been proven empirically 
in the U.S.

Now cities are dependent on those franchise fees for their budgets. And 
the cable cos rolled up to a national level. So it's mostly the FCC that 
regulates all of this where they care more about Janet Jackson's breast 
than providing accurate news to help a democracy function well. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy

It gets worse as people are moving to unicast networks for their "news." 
But we're really not getting news at all, we're gravitating to emotional 
validations per our dysfunctions. Facebook et al happily provide this 
because it sells more ads. And then the major equipment providers claim 
they're doing great engineering because they can carry "AI loads!!" and 
their stock goes up in value.  This means ads & news feeds that trigger 
dopamine hits for addicts are driving the money flows. Which is a sad 
theme for undereducated populations.

And ChatGPT is not the answer for our lack of education and a public 
obligation to support those educations, which includes addiction 
recovery programs, and the ability to think critically for ourselves.

Bob
> Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class "textbook":
>  
> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
> 
> 
>  [1]
>  Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success [1]
>  The Stokab report should be required reading for all local government
> officials. Stockholm is one of the  top Internet cities in the worl...
> 
>  cis471.blogspot.com
> 
> -------------------------
> 
> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of
> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM
> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
> Cc: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>; Frantisek Borsik
> <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>; libreqos
> <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Dave Taht via Starlink
> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>;
> bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure
> w/Comcast chat
> 
> Hi David,
> 
>> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>> 
>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:
>> 
>>>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
> communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>>> 
>>>       Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water
> (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is
> mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in
> that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different
> perspective.
>>>       Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into
> communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other
> critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP
> fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable
> way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the
> while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this
> is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has
> beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber
> access lines would also last for decades requiring no active component
> changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management.
> (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these
> typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life
> times of decades).
>> 
>> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing
> such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in many
> states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from building such
> systems.
> 
>         A resistance that in the current system is understandable*...
> btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just think
> that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we want
> actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place to
> implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple ISPs
> running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There are two
> ways I see to address this structural problem:
> a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors for
> "reasonable" prices
> b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain the
> access network
> 
> None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we already
> see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a spanner
> into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, but will
> not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as would be
> possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My subjective
> preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would offer a
> level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do best, offer
> internet access service while not pushing the cost of the access
> network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow a
> fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to convert
> to FTTH first....
> 
> However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I understand
> it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses hooked up to
> the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house network
> design in a future-proof way...
> 
> Regards
>         Sebastian
> 
> *) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing, just
> that I can see why it is happening.
> 
>> 
>> David Lang
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$
> 
> 
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] 
> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[Frantisek Borsik]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 7935 bytes --]

https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-mitchell-79078b5 and the like are
doing a pretty good job (given the circumstances) here in the US. At least,
that’s my understanding of his work.


All the best,

Frank
Frantisek (Frank) Borsik


https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com





On 28 March 2023 at 7:47:33 PM, rjmcmahon (rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com) wrote:

> Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get this
> (structural separation) right.
>
> Pre-coaxial cable & contract carriage, the FCC licensed spectrum to the
> major media companies and placed a news obligation on them for these OTA
> rights. A society can't run a democracy well without quality and factual
> information to the constituents. Sadly, contract carriage got rid of
> that news as a public service obligation as predicted by Eli Noam.
> http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html Hence we get January
> 6th and an insurrection.
>
> It takes a staff of 300 to produce 30 minutes of news three times a day.
> The co-axial franchise agreements per each city traded this obligation
> for a community access channel and a small studio, and annual franchise
> fees. History has shown this is insufficient for a city to provide
> quality news to its citizens. Community access channels failed
> miserably.
>
> Another requirement was two cables so there would be "competition" in
> the coaxial offerings. This rarely happened because of natural monopoly
> both in the last mile and in negotiating broadcast rights (mostly for
> sports.) There is only one broadcast rights winner, e.g. NBC for the
> Olympics, and only one last mile winner. That's been proven empirically
> in the U.S.
>
> Now cities are dependent on those franchise fees for their budgets. And
> the cable cos rolled up to a national level. So it's mostly the FCC that
> regulates all of this where they care more about Janet Jackson's breast
> than providing accurate news to help a democracy function well.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy
>
> It gets worse as people are moving to unicast networks for their "news."
> But we're really not getting news at all, we're gravitating to emotional
> validations per our dysfunctions. Facebook et al happily provide this
> because it sells more ads. And then the major equipment providers claim
> they're doing great engineering because they can carry "AI loads!!" and
> their stock goes up in value. This means ads & news feeds that trigger
> dopamine hits for addicts are driving the money flows. Which is a sad
> theme for undereducated populations.
>
> And ChatGPT is not the answer for our lack of education and a public
> obligation to support those educations, which includes addiction
> recovery programs, and the ability to think critically for ourselves.
>
> Bob
>
> Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class "textbook":
>
> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>
>
> [1]
> Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success [1]
> The Stokab report should be required reading for all local government
> officials. Stockholm is one of the top Internet cities in the worl...
>
> cis471.blogspot.com
>
> -------------------------
>
> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of
> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM
> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
> Cc: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>; Frantisek Borsik
> <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>; libreqos
> <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Dave Taht via Starlink
> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>;
> bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure
> w/Comcast chat
>
> Hi David,
>
> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>
> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:
>
> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>
> communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>
>
> Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water
>
> (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is
> mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in
> that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different
> perspective.
>
> Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into
>
> communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other
> critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP
> fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable
> way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the
> while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this
> is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has
> beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber
> access lines would also last for decades requiring no active component
> changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management.
> (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these
> typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life
> times of decades).
>
>
> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing
>
> such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in many
> states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from building such
> systems.
>
> A resistance that in the current system is understandable*...
> btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just think
> that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we want
> actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place to
> implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple ISPs
> running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There are two
> ways I see to address this structural problem:
> a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors for
> "reasonable" prices
> b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain the
> access network
>
> None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we already
> see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a spanner
> into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, but will
> not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as would be
> possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My subjective
> preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would offer a
> level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do best, offer
> internet access service while not pushing the cost of the access
> network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow a
> fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to convert
> to FTTH first....
>
> However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I understand
> it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses hooked up to
> the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house network
> design in a future-proof way...
>
> Regards
> Sebastian
>
> *) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing, just
> that I can see why it is happening.
>
>
> David Lang
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$
>
>
>
> Links:
> ------
> [1]
> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 12428 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[rjmcmahon]

There are municipal broadband projects. Most are in rural areas 
partially funded by the federal government via the USDA. Glasgow started 
a few decades ago. Similar to LUS in Lafayette, LA. 
https://www.usda.gov/broadband

Rural areas get a lot of federal money for things, a la the farm bill 
which also pays for food stamps instituted as part of the New Deal after 
the Great Depression.

https://sustainableagriculture.net/our-work/campaigns/fbcampaign/what-is-the-farm-bill/

None of this is really relevant to the vast majority of our urban 
populations that get broadband from investor-owned companies. These 
companies don't receive federal subsidies though sometimes they get 
access to municipal revenue bonds when doing city infrastructures.

Bob
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-mitchell-79078b5 and the like
> are doing a pretty good job (given the circumstances) here in the US.
> At least, that’s my understanding of his work.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Frank
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> 
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 [2]
> 
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 [3]
> 
> Skype: casioa5302ca
> 
> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> 
> On 28 March 2023 at 7:47:33 PM, rjmcmahon (rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com)
> wrote:
> 
>> Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get this
>> (structural separation) right.
>> 
>> Pre-coaxial cable & contract carriage, the FCC licensed spectrum to
>> the
>> major media companies and placed a news obligation on them for these
>> OTA
>> rights. A society can't run a democracy well without quality and
>> factual
>> information to the constituents. Sadly, contract carriage got rid of
>> 
>> that news as a public service obligation as predicted by Eli Noam.
>> http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html Hence we get
>> January
>> 6th and an insurrection.
>> 
>> It takes a staff of 300 to produce 30 minutes of news three times a
>> day.
>> The co-axial franchise agreements per each city traded this
>> obligation
>> for a community access channel and a small studio, and annual
>> franchise
>> fees. History has shown this is insufficient for a city to provide
>> quality news to its citizens. Community access channels failed
>> miserably.
>> 
>> Another requirement was two cables so there would be "competition"
>> in
>> the coaxial offerings. This rarely happened because of natural
>> monopoly
>> both in the last mile and in negotiating broadcast rights (mostly
>> for
>> sports.) There is only one broadcast rights winner, e.g. NBC for the
>> 
>> Olympics, and only one last mile winner. That's been proven
>> empirically
>> in the U.S.
>> 
>> Now cities are dependent on those franchise fees for their budgets.
>> And
>> the cable cos rolled up to a national level. So it's mostly the FCC
>> that
>> regulates all of this where they care more about Janet Jackson's
>> breast
>> than providing accurate news to help a democracy function well.
>> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy
>> 
>> 
>> It gets worse as people are moving to unicast networks for their
>> "news."
>> But we're really not getting news at all, we're gravitating to
>> emotional
>> validations per our dysfunctions. Facebook et al happily provide
>> this
>> because it sells more ads. And then the major equipment providers
>> claim
>> they're doing great engineering because they can carry "AI loads!!"
>> and
>> their stock goes up in value. This means ads & news feeds that
>> trigger
>> dopamine hits for addicts are driving the money flows. Which is a
>> sad
>> theme for undereducated populations.
>> 
>> And ChatGPT is not the answer for our lack of education and a public
>> 
>> obligation to support those educations, which includes addiction
>> recovery programs, and the ability to think critically for
>> ourselves.
>> 
>> Bob
>> Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class "textbook":
>> 
>> 
> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>> 
>> 
>> [1]
>> Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success [1]
>> The Stokab report should be required reading for all local
>> government
>> officials. Stockholm is one of the top Internet cities in the
>> worl...
>> 
>> cis471.blogspot.com [1]
>> 
>> -------------------------
>> 
>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of
>> 
>> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM
>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>> Cc: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>; Frantisek Borsik
>> <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>; libreqos
>> <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Dave Taht via Starlink
>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; rjmcmahon
>> <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>;
>> bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure
>> w/Comcast chat
>> 
>> Hi David,
>> 
>> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>> 
>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:
>> 
>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>  communications infrastructure as life support critical.
> 
>>> Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water
>  (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is
> mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in
> that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different
> perspective.
> 
>>> Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into
>  communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other
> critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP
> fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable
> way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the
> while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this
> is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has
> beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber
> access lines would also last for decades requiring no active component
> 
> changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management.
> (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these
> typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life
> times of decades).
> 
>> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing
>  such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in many
> 
> states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from building such
> 
> systems.
> 
> A resistance that in the current system is understandable*...
> btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just think
> that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we want
> actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place to
> implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple ISPs
> running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There are two
> 
> ways I see to address this structural problem:
> a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors for
> "reasonable" prices
> b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain the
> access network
> 
> None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we already
> see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a spanner
> 
> into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, but will
> 
> not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as would be
> possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My subjective
> preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would offer a
> level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do best, offer
> 
> internet access service while not pushing the cost of the access
> network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow a
> fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to convert
> to FTTH first....
> 
> However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I understand
> it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses hooked up to
> 
> the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house network
> design in a future-proof way...
> 
> Regards
> Sebastian
> 
> *) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing, just
> that I can see why it is happening.
> 
>> David Lang
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$
> 
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1]
> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
> 
> 
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://cis471.blogspot.com
> [2] tel:+421919416714
> [3] tel:+420775230885

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[David Lang]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 9338 bytes --]

https://sifinetworks.com/residential/cities/simi-valley-ca/

I'm due to get it to my area Q2 (or so). we're a suburb outside LA, but 100k+ 
people so not tiny.

David Lang


On Tue, 28 Mar 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:

> There are municipal broadband projects. Most are in rural areas partially 
> funded by the federal government via the USDA. Glasgow started a few decades 
> ago. Similar to LUS in Lafayette, LA. https://www.usda.gov/broadband
>
> Rural areas get a lot of federal money for things, a la the farm bill which 
> also pays for food stamps instituted as part of the New Deal after the Great 
> Depression.
>
> https://sustainableagriculture.net/our-work/campaigns/fbcampaign/what-is-the-farm-bill/
>
> None of this is really relevant to the vast majority of our urban populations 
> that get broadband from investor-owned companies. These companies don't 
> receive federal subsidies though sometimes they get access to municipal 
> revenue bonds when doing city infrastructures.
>
> Bob
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-mitchell-79078b5 and the like
>> are doing a pretty good job (given the circumstances) here in the US.
>> At least, that’s my understanding of his work.
>> 
>> All the best,
>> 
>> Frank
>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>> 
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>> 
>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 [2]
>> 
>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 [3]
>> 
>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>> 
>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>> 
>> On 28 March 2023 at 7:47:33 PM, rjmcmahon (rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com)
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get this
>>> (structural separation) right.
>>> 
>>> Pre-coaxial cable & contract carriage, the FCC licensed spectrum to
>>> the
>>> major media companies and placed a news obligation on them for these
>>> OTA
>>> rights. A society can't run a democracy well without quality and
>>> factual
>>> information to the constituents. Sadly, contract carriage got rid of
>>> 
>>> that news as a public service obligation as predicted by Eli Noam.
>>> http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html Hence we get
>>> January
>>> 6th and an insurrection.
>>> 
>>> It takes a staff of 300 to produce 30 minutes of news three times a
>>> day.
>>> The co-axial franchise agreements per each city traded this
>>> obligation
>>> for a community access channel and a small studio, and annual
>>> franchise
>>> fees. History has shown this is insufficient for a city to provide
>>> quality news to its citizens. Community access channels failed
>>> miserably.
>>> 
>>> Another requirement was two cables so there would be "competition"
>>> in
>>> the coaxial offerings. This rarely happened because of natural
>>> monopoly
>>> both in the last mile and in negotiating broadcast rights (mostly
>>> for
>>> sports.) There is only one broadcast rights winner, e.g. NBC for the
>>> 
>>> Olympics, and only one last mile winner. That's been proven
>>> empirically
>>> in the U.S.
>>> 
>>> Now cities are dependent on those franchise fees for their budgets.
>>> And
>>> the cable cos rolled up to a national level. So it's mostly the FCC
>>> that
>>> regulates all of this where they care more about Janet Jackson's
>>> breast
>>> than providing accurate news to help a democracy function well.
>>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy
>>> 
>>> 
>>> It gets worse as people are moving to unicast networks for their
>>> "news."
>>> But we're really not getting news at all, we're gravitating to
>>> emotional
>>> validations per our dysfunctions. Facebook et al happily provide
>>> this
>>> because it sells more ads. And then the major equipment providers
>>> claim
>>> they're doing great engineering because they can carry "AI loads!!"
>>> and
>>> their stock goes up in value. This means ads & news feeds that
>>> trigger
>>> dopamine hits for addicts are driving the money flows. Which is a
>>> sad
>>> theme for undereducated populations.
>>> 
>>> And ChatGPT is not the answer for our lack of education and a public
>>> 
>>> obligation to support those educations, which includes addiction
>>> recovery programs, and the ability to think critically for
>>> ourselves.
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class "textbook":
>>> 
>>> 
>> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>>> 
>>> 
>>> [1]
>>> Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success [1]
>>> The Stokab report should be required reading for all local
>>> government
>>> officials. Stockholm is one of the top Internet cities in the
>>> worl...
>>> 
>>> cis471.blogspot.com [1]
>>> 
>>> -------------------------
>>> 
>>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of
>>> 
>>> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM
>>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>>> Cc: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>; Frantisek Borsik
>>> <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>; libreqos
>>> <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Dave Taht via Starlink
>>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; rjmcmahon
>>> <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>;
>>> bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure
>>> w/Comcast chat
>>> 
>>> Hi David,
>>> 
>>> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>> 
>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:
>>> 
>>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>>  communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>> 
>>>> Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water
>>  (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is
>> mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in
>> that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different
>> perspective.
>> 
>>>> Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into
>>  communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other
>> critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP
>> fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable
>> way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the
>> while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this
>> is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has
>> beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber
>> access lines would also last for decades requiring no active component
>> 
>> changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management.
>> (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these
>> typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life
>> times of decades).
>> 
>>> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing
>>  such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in many
>> 
>> states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from building such
>> 
>> systems.
>> 
>> A resistance that in the current system is understandable*...
>> btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just think
>> that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we want
>> actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place to
>> implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple ISPs
>> running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There are two
>> 
>> ways I see to address this structural problem:
>> a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors for
>> "reasonable" prices
>> b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain the
>> access network
>> 
>> None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we already
>> see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a spanner
>> 
>> into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, but will
>> 
>> not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as would be
>> possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My subjective
>> preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would offer a
>> level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do best, offer
>> 
>> internet access service while not pushing the cost of the access
>> network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow a
>> fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to convert
>> to FTTH first....
>> 
>> However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I understand
>> it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses hooked up to
>> 
>> the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house network
>> design in a future-proof way...
>> 
>> Regards
>> Sebastian
>> 
>> *) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing, just
>> that I can see why it is happening.
>> 
>>> David Lang
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$
>> 
>> 
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1]
>> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1] http://cis471.blogspot.com
>> [2] tel:+421919416714
>> [3] tel:+420775230885
>

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[rjmcmahon]

Agreed though, from a semiconductor perspective, 100K units over ten+ 
years isn't going to drive a foundry to produce the parts required. 
Then, a small staff makes the same decisions for all 100K premises 
regardless of things like the ability to pay for differentiators as they 
have no differentiators (we all get Model T black.) These staffs are 
also trying to predict the future without any real ability to affect 
that future. It's worse than a tragedy of the commons because the sunk 
mistakes get magnified every passing year.

A FiWi architecture with pluggable components may have the opportunity 
to address these issues and do it in volume and at fair prices and also 
reduce climate impacts per taking in account capacity / (latency * 
distance * power), by making that aspect field upgradeable.

Bob
> https://sifinetworks.com/residential/cities/simi-valley-ca/
> 
> I'm due to get it to my area Q2 (or so). we're a suburb outside LA,
> but 100k+ people so not tiny.
> 
> David Lang
> 
> 
> On Tue, 28 Mar 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
> 
>> There are municipal broadband projects. Most are in rural areas 
>> partially funded by the federal government via the USDA. Glasgow 
>> started a few decades ago. Similar to LUS in Lafayette, LA. 
>> https://www.usda.gov/broadband
>> 
>> Rural areas get a lot of federal money for things, a la the farm bill 
>> which also pays for food stamps instituted as part of the New Deal 
>> after the Great Depression.
>> 
>> https://sustainableagriculture.net/our-work/campaigns/fbcampaign/what-is-the-farm-bill/
>> 
>> None of this is really relevant to the vast majority of our urban 
>> populations that get broadband from investor-owned companies. These 
>> companies don't receive federal subsidies though sometimes they get 
>> access to municipal revenue bonds when doing city infrastructures.
>> 
>> Bob
>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-mitchell-79078b5 and the like
>>> are doing a pretty good job (given the circumstances) here in the US.
>>> At least, that’s my understanding of his work.
>>> 
>>> All the best,
>>> 
>>> Frank
>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>> 
>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>>> 
>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 [2]
>>> 
>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 [3]
>>> 
>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>> 
>>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>>> 
>>> On 28 March 2023 at 7:47:33 PM, rjmcmahon (rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com)
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get this
>>>> (structural separation) right.
>>>> 
>>>> Pre-coaxial cable & contract carriage, the FCC licensed spectrum to
>>>> the
>>>> major media companies and placed a news obligation on them for these
>>>> OTA
>>>> rights. A society can't run a democracy well without quality and
>>>> factual
>>>> information to the constituents. Sadly, contract carriage got rid of
>>>> 
>>>> that news as a public service obligation as predicted by Eli Noam.
>>>> http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html Hence we get
>>>> January
>>>> 6th and an insurrection.
>>>> 
>>>> It takes a staff of 300 to produce 30 minutes of news three times a
>>>> day.
>>>> The co-axial franchise agreements per each city traded this
>>>> obligation
>>>> for a community access channel and a small studio, and annual
>>>> franchise
>>>> fees. History has shown this is insufficient for a city to provide
>>>> quality news to its citizens. Community access channels failed
>>>> miserably.
>>>> 
>>>> Another requirement was two cables so there would be "competition"
>>>> in
>>>> the coaxial offerings. This rarely happened because of natural
>>>> monopoly
>>>> both in the last mile and in negotiating broadcast rights (mostly
>>>> for
>>>> sports.) There is only one broadcast rights winner, e.g. NBC for the
>>>> 
>>>> Olympics, and only one last mile winner. That's been proven
>>>> empirically
>>>> in the U.S.
>>>> 
>>>> Now cities are dependent on those franchise fees for their budgets.
>>>> And
>>>> the cable cos rolled up to a national level. So it's mostly the FCC
>>>> that
>>>> regulates all of this where they care more about Janet Jackson's
>>>> breast
>>>> than providing accurate news to help a democracy function well.
>>>> 
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> It gets worse as people are moving to unicast networks for their
>>>> "news."
>>>> But we're really not getting news at all, we're gravitating to
>>>> emotional
>>>> validations per our dysfunctions. Facebook et al happily provide
>>>> this
>>>> because it sells more ads. And then the major equipment providers
>>>> claim
>>>> they're doing great engineering because they can carry "AI loads!!"
>>>> and
>>>> their stock goes up in value. This means ads & news feeds that
>>>> trigger
>>>> dopamine hits for addicts are driving the money flows. Which is a
>>>> sad
>>>> theme for undereducated populations.
>>>> 
>>>> And ChatGPT is not the answer for our lack of education and a public
>>>> 
>>>> obligation to support those educations, which includes addiction
>>>> recovery programs, and the ability to think critically for
>>>> ourselves.
>>>> 
>>>> Bob
>>>> Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class "textbook":
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> [1]
>>>> Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success [1]
>>>> The Stokab report should be required reading for all local
>>>> government
>>>> officials. Stockholm is one of the top Internet cities in the
>>>> worl...
>>>> 
>>>> cis471.blogspot.com [1]
>>>> 
>>>> -------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of
>>>> 
>>>> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM
>>>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>>>> Cc: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>; Frantisek Borsik
>>>> <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>; libreqos
>>>> <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Dave Taht via Starlink
>>>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; rjmcmahon
>>>> <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>;
>>>> bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure
>>>> w/Comcast chat
>>>> 
>>>> Hi David,
>>>> 
>>>> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>>>  communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>>> 
>>>>> Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water
>>>  (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is
>>> mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in
>>> that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different
>>> perspective.
>>> 
>>>>> Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into
>>>  communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other
>>> critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP
>>> fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable
>>> way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the
>>> while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this
>>> is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has
>>> beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber
>>> access lines would also last for decades requiring no active 
>>> component
>>> 
>>> changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management.
>>> (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these
>>> typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life
>>> times of decades).
>>> 
>>>> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing
>>>  such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in 
>>> many
>>> 
>>> states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from building 
>>> such
>>> 
>>> systems.
>>> 
>>> A resistance that in the current system is understandable*...
>>> btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just think
>>> that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we want
>>> actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place to
>>> implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple ISPs
>>> running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There are 
>>> two
>>> 
>>> ways I see to address this structural problem:
>>> a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors for
>>> "reasonable" prices
>>> b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain the
>>> access network
>>> 
>>> None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we already
>>> see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a 
>>> spanner
>>> 
>>> into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, but 
>>> will
>>> 
>>> not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as would be
>>> possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My subjective
>>> preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would offer a
>>> level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do best, 
>>> offer
>>> 
>>> internet access service while not pushing the cost of the access
>>> network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow a
>>> fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to convert
>>> to FTTH first....
>>> 
>>> However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I understand
>>> it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses hooked up 
>>> to
>>> 
>>> the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house network
>>> design in a future-proof way...
>>> 
>>> Regards
>>> Sebastian
>>> 
>>> *) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing, just
>>> that I can see why it is happening.
>>> 
>>>> David Lang
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Starlink mailing list
>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Links:
>>> ------
>>> [1]
>>> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Links:
>>> ------
>>> [1] http://cis471.blogspot.com
>>> [2] tel:+421919416714
>>> [3] tel:+420775230885
>> 

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[dan]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 12263 bytes --]

 IMO, there is a very near zero chance of this ‘FiWi’ coming to fruition.
No one wants it.  I don’t want it, I see nothing but flaws, single points
of failure, security issues, erosion of privacy in homes and business,  and
general consumer mistrust of such a model and well as consolidation and
monopolization of internet access.  I will actively speak out against this,
is bad in just about every way you can talk about.  I cannot find a single
benefit it offers.




On Mar 28, 2023 at 3:31:40 PM, rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:

> Agreed though, from a semiconductor perspective, 100K units over ten+
> years isn't going to drive a foundry to produce the parts required.
> Then, a small staff makes the same decisions for all 100K premises
> regardless of things like the ability to pay for differentiators as they
> have no differentiators (we all get Model T black.) These staffs are
> also trying to predict the future without any real ability to affect
> that future. It's worse than a tragedy of the commons because the sunk
> mistakes get magnified every passing year.
>
> A FiWi architecture with pluggable components may have the opportunity
> to address these issues and do it in volume and at fair prices and also
> reduce climate impacts per taking in account capacity / (latency *
> distance * power), by making that aspect field upgradeable.
>
> Bob
>
> https://sifinetworks.com/residential/cities/simi-valley-ca/
>
>
> I'm due to get it to my area Q2 (or so). we're a suburb outside LA,
>
> but 100k+ people so not tiny.
>
>
> David Lang
>
>
>
> On Tue, 28 Mar 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
>
>
> > There are municipal broadband projects. Most are in rural areas
>
> > partially funded by the federal government via the USDA. Glasgow
>
> > started a few decades ago. Similar to LUS in Lafayette, LA.
>
> > https://www.usda.gov/broadband
>
> >
>
> > Rural areas get a lot of federal money for things, a la the farm bill
>
> > which also pays for food stamps instituted as part of the New Deal
>
> > after the Great Depression.
>
> >
>
> >
> https://sustainableagriculture.net/our-work/campaigns/fbcampaign/what-is-the-farm-bill/
>
> >
>
> > None of this is really relevant to the vast majority of our urban
>
> > populations that get broadband from investor-owned companies. These
>
> > companies don't receive federal subsidies though sometimes they get
>
> > access to municipal revenue bonds when doing city infrastructures.
>
> >
>
> > Bob
>
> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-mitchell-79078b5 and the like
>
> >> are doing a pretty good job (given the circumstances) here in the US.
>
> >> At least, that’s my understanding of his work.
>
> >>
>
> >> All the best,
>
> >>
>
> >> Frank
>
> >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>
> >>
>
> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>
> >>
>
> >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 [2]
>
> >>
>
> >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 [3]
>
> >>
>
> >> Skype: casioa5302ca
>
> >>
>
> >> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>
> >>
>
> >> On 28 March 2023 at 7:47:33 PM, rjmcmahon (rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com)
>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>> Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get this
>
> >>> (structural separation) right.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Pre-coaxial cable & contract carriage, the FCC licensed spectrum to
>
> >>> the
>
> >>> major media companies and placed a news obligation on them for these
>
> >>> OTA
>
> >>> rights. A society can't run a democracy well without quality and
>
> >>> factual
>
> >>> information to the constituents. Sadly, contract carriage got rid of
>
> >>>
>
> >>> that news as a public service obligation as predicted by Eli Noam.
>
> >>> http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html Hence we get
>
> >>> January
>
> >>> 6th and an insurrection.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> It takes a staff of 300 to produce 30 minutes of news three times a
>
> >>> day.
>
> >>> The co-axial franchise agreements per each city traded this
>
> >>> obligation
>
> >>> for a community access channel and a small studio, and annual
>
> >>> franchise
>
> >>> fees. History has shown this is insufficient for a city to provide
>
> >>> quality news to its citizens. Community access channels failed
>
> >>> miserably.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Another requirement was two cables so there would be "competition"
>
> >>> in
>
> >>> the coaxial offerings. This rarely happened because of natural
>
> >>> monopoly
>
> >>> both in the last mile and in negotiating broadcast rights (mostly
>
> >>> for
>
> >>> sports.) There is only one broadcast rights winner, e.g. NBC for the
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Olympics, and only one last mile winner. That's been proven
>
> >>> empirically
>
> >>> in the U.S.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Now cities are dependent on those franchise fees for their budgets.
>
> >>> And
>
> >>> the cable cos rolled up to a national level. So it's mostly the FCC
>
> >>> that
>
> >>> regulates all of this where they care more about Janet Jackson's
>
> >>> breast
>
> >>> than providing accurate news to help a democracy function well.
>
> >>>
>
> >>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> It gets worse as people are moving to unicast networks for their
>
> >>> "news."
>
> >>> But we're really not getting news at all, we're gravitating to
>
> >>> emotional
>
> >>> validations per our dysfunctions. Facebook et al happily provide
>
> >>> this
>
> >>> because it sells more ads. And then the major equipment providers
>
> >>> claim
>
> >>> they're doing great engineering because they can carry "AI loads!!"
>
> >>> and
>
> >>> their stock goes up in value. This means ads & news feeds that
>
> >>> trigger
>
> >>> dopamine hits for addicts are driving the money flows. Which is a
>
> >>> sad
>
> >>> theme for undereducated populations.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> And ChatGPT is not the answer for our lack of education and a public
>
> >>>
>
> >>> obligation to support those educations, which includes addiction
>
> >>> recovery programs, and the ability to think critically for
>
> >>> ourselves.
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Bob
>
> >>> Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class "textbook":
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>
> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>
> >>>
>
> >>>
>
> >>> [1]
>
> >>> Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success [1]
>
> >>> The Stokab report should be required reading for all local
>
> >>> government
>
> >>> officials. Stockholm is one of the top Internet cities in the
>
> >>> worl...
>
> >>>
>
> >>> cis471.blogspot.com [1]
>
> >>>
>
> >>> -------------------------
>
> >>>
>
> >>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>
> >>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM
>
> >>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>
> >>> Cc: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>; Frantisek Borsik
>
> >>> <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>; libreqos
>
> >>> <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Dave Taht via Starlink
>
> >>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; rjmcmahon
>
> >>> <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>;
>
> >>> bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>
> >>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure
>
> >>> w/Comcast chat
>
> >>>
>
> >>> Hi David,
>
> >>>
>
> >>> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>
> >>>
>
> >>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:
>
> >>>
>
> >>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>
> >>  communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>
> >>
>
> >>>> Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water
>
> >>  (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is
>
> >> mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in
>
> >> that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different
>
> >> perspective.
>
> >>
>
> >>>> Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into
>
> >>  communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other
>
> >> critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP
>
> >> fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable
>
> >> way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the
>
> >> while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this
>
> >> is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has
>
> >> beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber
>
> >> access lines would also last for decades requiring no active
>
> >> component
>
> >>
>
> >> changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management.
>
> >> (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these
>
> >> typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life
>
> >> times of decades).
>
> >>
>
> >>> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing
>
> >>  such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in
>
> >> many
>
> >>
>
> >> states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from building
>
> >> such
>
> >>
>
> >> systems.
>
> >>
>
> >> A resistance that in the current system is understandable*...
>
> >> btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just think
>
> >> that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we want
>
> >> actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place to
>
> >> implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple ISPs
>
> >> running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There are
>
> >> two
>
> >>
>
> >> ways I see to address this structural problem:
>
> >> a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors for
>
> >> "reasonable" prices
>
> >> b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain the
>
> >> access network
>
> >>
>
> >> None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we already
>
> >> see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a
>
> >> spanner
>
> >>
>
> >> into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, but
>
> >> will
>
> >>
>
> >> not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as would be
>
> >> possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My subjective
>
> >> preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would offer a
>
> >> level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do best,
>
> >> offer
>
> >>
>
> >> internet access service while not pushing the cost of the access
>
> >> network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow a
>
> >> fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to convert
>
> >> to FTTH first....
>
> >>
>
> >> However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I understand
>
> >> it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses hooked up
>
> >> to
>
> >>
>
> >> the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house network
>
> >> design in a future-proof way...
>
> >>
>
> >> Regards
>
> >> Sebastian
>
> >>
>
> >> *) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing, just
>
> >> that I can see why it is happening.
>
> >>
>
> >>> David Lang
>
> >>
>
> >> _______________________________________________
>
> >> Starlink mailing list
>
> >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Links:
>
> >> ------
>
> >> [1]
>
> >>
> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> Links:
>
> >> ------
>
> >> [1] http://cis471.blogspot.com
>
> >> [2] tel:+421919416714
>
> >> [3] tel:+420775230885
>
> >
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 25168 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[rjmcmahon]

If it doesn't align with privacy & security, what we know of physics, 
what can be achieved by world class engineering, what will be funded by 
market models or behaviors based upon payments & receipts, increase job 
creation for blue collar workers, reduce power consumption, etc. then I 
agree FiWi should, and likely will, fail.

Russia came very late to the industrial revolution because its leaders 
were against technological progress, e.g. trains. That was a critical 
juncture for them. 
https://blogs.lt.vt.edu/jhoran/2014/08/31/transportation-and-industrialization/

It seems likely to me we are at our own critical juncture. I hope we get 
it more or less right so that inclusive human societies, societies that 
learn to care for others, built from our technologies, technologies 
derived from the works & ideas of those who came before us, can benefit 
long after we each depart as has been done with potable water supplies 
for many (but not all.)

Bob

PS. I tend to ignore things that have no chance. I find it better to 
spend my time & energy on things that do have some possibility of 
impact. I find our lives are too short to do otherwise.

> IMO, there is a very near zero chance of this ‘FiWi’ coming to
> fruition.  No one wants it.  I don’t want it, I see nothing but
> flaws, single points of failure, security issues, erosion of privacy
> in homes and business,  and general consumer mistrust of such a model
> and well as consolidation and monopolization of internet access.  I
> will actively speak out against this, is bad in just about every way
> you can talk about.  I cannot find a single benefit it offers.
> 
> On Mar 28, 2023 at 3:31:40 PM, rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> Agreed though, from a semiconductor perspective, 100K units over
>> ten+
>> years isn't going to drive a foundry to produce the parts required.
>> Then, a small staff makes the same decisions for all 100K premises
>> regardless of things like the ability to pay for differentiators as
>> they
>> have no differentiators (we all get Model T black.) These staffs are
>> 
>> also trying to predict the future without any real ability to affect
>> 
>> that future. It's worse than a tragedy of the commons because the
>> sunk
>> mistakes get magnified every passing year.
>> 
>> A FiWi architecture with pluggable components may have the
>> opportunity
>> to address these issues and do it in volume and at fair prices and
>> also
>> reduce climate impacts per taking in account capacity / (latency *
>> distance * power), by making that aspect field upgradeable.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>>> https://sifinetworks.com/residential/cities/simi-valley-ca/
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> I'm due to get it to my area Q2 (or so). we're a suburb outside
>>> LA,
>> 
>>> but 100k+ people so not tiny.
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> David Lang
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> On Tue, 28 Mar 2023, rjmcmahon wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>>> There are municipal broadband projects. Most are in rural areas
>> 
>>>> partially funded by the federal government via the USDA. Glasgow
>> 
>>>> started a few decades ago. Similar to LUS in Lafayette, LA.
>> 
>>>> https://www.usda.gov/broadband
>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>>>> Rural areas get a lot of federal money for things, a la the farm
>>> bill
>> 
>>>> which also pays for food stamps instituted as part of the New
>>> Deal
>> 
>>>> after the Great Depression.
>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> https://sustainableagriculture.net/our-work/campaigns/fbcampaign/what-is-the-farm-bill/
>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>>>> None of this is really relevant to the vast majority of our
>>> urban
>> 
>>>> populations that get broadband from investor-owned companies.
>>> These
>> 
>>>> companies don't receive federal subsidies though sometimes they
>>> get
>> 
>>>> access to municipal revenue bonds when doing city
>>> infrastructures.
>> 
>>>> 
>> 
>>>> Bob
>> 
>>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/christopher-mitchell-79078b5 and
>>> the like
>> 
>>>>> are doing a pretty good job (given the circumstances) here in
>>> the US.
>> 
>>>>> At least, that’s my understanding of his work.
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> All the best,
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> Frank
>> 
>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 [2]
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 [3]
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> On 28 March 2023 at 7:47:33 PM, rjmcmahon
>>> (rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com)
>> 
>>>>> wrote:
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get
>>> this
>> 
>>>>>> (structural separation) right.
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Pre-coaxial cable & contract carriage, the FCC licensed
>>> spectrum to
>> 
>>>>>> the
>> 
>>>>>> major media companies and placed a news obligation on them for
>>> these
>> 
>>>>>> OTA
>> 
>>>>>> rights. A society can't run a democracy well without quality
>>> and
>> 
>>>>>> factual
>> 
>>>>>> information to the constituents. Sadly, contract carriage got
>>> rid of
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> that news as a public service obligation as predicted by Eli
>>> Noam.
>> 
>>>>>> http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html Hence we
>>> get
>> 
>>>>>> January
>> 
>>>>>> 6th and an insurrection.
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> It takes a staff of 300 to produce 30 minutes of news three
>>> times a
>> 
>>>>>> day.
>> 
>>>>>> The co-axial franchise agreements per each city traded this
>> 
>>>>>> obligation
>> 
>>>>>> for a community access channel and a small studio, and annual
>> 
>>>>>> franchise
>> 
>>>>>> fees. History has shown this is insufficient for a city to
>>> provide
>> 
>>>>>> quality news to its citizens. Community access channels failed
>> 
>>>>>> miserably.
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Another requirement was two cables so there would be
>>> "competition"
>> 
>>>>>> in
>> 
>>>>>> the coaxial offerings. This rarely happened because of natural
>> 
>>>>>> monopoly
>> 
>>>>>> both in the last mile and in negotiating broadcast rights
>>> (mostly
>> 
>>>>>> for
>> 
>>>>>> sports.) There is only one broadcast rights winner, e.g. NBC
>>> for the
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Olympics, and only one last mile winner. That's been proven
>> 
>>>>>> empirically
>> 
>>>>>> in the U.S.
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Now cities are dependent on those franchise fees for their
>>> budgets.
>> 
>>>>>> And
>> 
>>>>>> the cable cos rolled up to a national level. So it's mostly
>>> the FCC
>> 
>>>>>> that
>> 
>>>>>> regulates all of this where they care more about Janet
>>> Jackson's
>> 
>>>>>> breast
>> 
>>>>>> than providing accurate news to help a democracy function
>>> well.
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> It gets worse as people are moving to unicast networks for
>>> their
>> 
>>>>>> "news."
>> 
>>>>>> But we're really not getting news at all, we're gravitating to
>> 
>>>>>> emotional
>> 
>>>>>> validations per our dysfunctions. Facebook et al happily
>>> provide
>> 
>>>>>> this
>> 
>>>>>> because it sells more ads. And then the major equipment
>>> providers
>> 
>>>>>> claim
>> 
>>>>>> they're doing great engineering because they can carry "AI
>>> loads!!"
>> 
>>>>>> and
>> 
>>>>>> their stock goes up in value. This means ads & news feeds that
>> 
>>>>>> trigger
>> 
>>>>>> dopamine hits for addicts are driving the money flows. Which
>>> is a
>> 
>>>>>> sad
>> 
>>>>>> theme for undereducated populations.
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> And ChatGPT is not the answer for our lack of education and a
>>> public
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> obligation to support those educations, which includes
>>> addiction
>> 
>>>>>> recovery programs, and the ability to think critically for
>> 
>>>>>> ourselves.
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Bob
>> 
>>>>>> Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class
>>> "textbook":
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> [1]
>> 
>>>>>> Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success [1]
>> 
>>>>>> The Stokab report should be required reading for all local
>> 
>>>>>> government
>> 
>>>>>> officials. Stockholm is one of the top Internet cities in the
>> 
>>>>>> worl...
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> cis471.blogspot.com [1] [1]
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> -------------------------
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on
>>> behalf of
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink
>>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> 
>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM
>> 
>>>>>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>> 
>>>>>> Cc: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>; Frantisek Borsik
>> 
>>>>>> <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>; libreqos
>> 
>>>>>> <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Dave Taht via Starlink
>> 
>>>>>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; rjmcmahon
>> 
>>>>>> <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>;
>> 
>>>>>> bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> 
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical
>>> infrastructure
>> 
>>>>>> w/Comcast chat
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> Hi David,
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:
>> 
>>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>> 
>>>>> communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>>> Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water
>> 
>>>>> (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications
>>> infrastructure is
>> 
>>>>> mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a
>>> path in
>> 
>>>>> that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different
>> 
>>>>> perspective.
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>>> Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into
>> 
>>>>> communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with
>>> other
>> 
>>>>> critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see
>>> a PtP
>> 
>>>>> fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a
>>> viable
>> 
>>>>> way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all
>>> the
>> 
>>>>> while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC
>>> this
>> 
>>>>> is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS
>>> wiring has
>> 
>>>>> beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current
>>> fiber
>> 
>>>>> access lines would also last for decades requiring no active
>> 
>>>>> component
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> changes in the field, making them candidates for communal
>>> management.
>> 
>>>>> (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these
>> 
>>>>> typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about
>>> life
>> 
>>>>> times of decades).
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is
>>> doing
>> 
>>>>> such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and
>>> in
>> 
>>>>> many
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from
>>> building
>> 
>>>>> such
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> systems.
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> A resistance that in the current system is understandable*...
>> 
>>>>> btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just
>>> think
>> 
>>>>> that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we
>>> want
>> 
>>>>> actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place
>>> to
>> 
>>>>> implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple
>>> ISPs
>> 
>>>>> running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There
>>> are
>> 
>>>>> two
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> ways I see to address this structural problem:
>> 
>>>>> a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors
>>> for
>> 
>>>>> "reasonable" prices
>> 
>>>>> b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain
>>> the
>> 
>>>>> access network
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we
>>> already
>> 
>>>>> see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a
>> 
>>>>> spanner
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access,
>>> but
>> 
>>>>> will
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as
>>> would be
>> 
>>>>> possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My
>>> subjective
>> 
>>>>> preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would
>>> offer a
>> 
>>>>> level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do
>>> best,
>> 
>>>>> offer
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> internet access service while not pushing the cost of the
>>> access
>> 
>>>>> network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow
>>> a
>> 
>>>>> fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to
>>> convert
>> 
>>>>> to FTTH first....
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I
>>> understand
>> 
>>>>> it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses
>>> hooked up
>> 
>>>>> to
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house
>>> network
>> 
>>>>> design in a future-proof way...
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> Regards
>> 
>>>>> Sebastian
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> *) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing,
>>> just
>> 
>>>>> that I can see why it is happening.
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>>> David Lang
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>> 
>>>>> Starlink mailing list
>> 
>>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> Links:
>> 
>>>>> ------
>> 
>>>>> [1]
>> 
>>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> 
>> 
>>>>> Links:
>> 
>>>>> ------
>> 
>>>>> [1] http://cis471.blogspot.com
>> 
>>>>> [2] tel:+421919416714
>> 
>>>>> [3] tel:+420775230885
>> 
>>>> 
> 
> 
> Links:
> ------
> [1] http://cis471.blogspot.com

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[Sebastian Moeller]

Hi Bob,


> On Mar 28, 2023, at 19:47, rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
> 
> Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get this (structural separation) right.

There really isn't that much to get wrong, you built the access network and terminate the per household fibers in arge enough "exchanges" there you offer ISPs to lighten up the fibers on the premise that customers can use any ISP they want (that is present in the exchange)... and on ISP change will just be patched differently in the exchange.
While I think that local "government" also could successfully run internet access services, I see no reason why they should do so (unless there is no competition).
The goal here is to move the "natural monopoly" of the access network out of the hand of the "market" (as markets simply fail as optimizing resource allocation instruments under mono- and oligopoly conditions, on either side).


> 
> Pre-coaxial cable & contract carriage, the FCC licensed spectrum to the major media companies and placed a news obligation on them for these OTA rights. A society can't run a democracy well without quality and factual information to the constituents. Sadly, contract carriage got rid of that news as a public service obligation as predicted by Eli Noam. http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html Hence we get January 6th and an insurrection.



> 
> It takes a staff of 300 to produce 30 minutes of news three times a day. The co-axial franchise agreements per each city traded this obligation for a community access channel and a small studio, and annual franchise fees. History has shown this is insufficient for a city to provide quality news to its citizens. Community access channels failed miserably.

	I would argue this is that there are things where cities excel and some where they simply are mediocre... managing monopoly infrastructure (like roads, water, sometime power) with long amortization times is something they do well (either directly or via companies they own and operate). 

> Another requirement was two cables so there would be "competition" in the coaxial offerings. This rarely happened because of natural monopoly both in the last mile and in negotiating broadcast rights (mostly for sports.) There is only one broadcast rights winner, e.g. NBC for the Olympics, and only one last mile winner. That's been proven empirically in the U.S.

	Yes, that is why the operator of the last mile, should really not offer services over that mile itself. Real competition on the access lines themselves is not going to happen (at least not is sufficient number to make a market solution viable), but there is precedence of getting enough service providers to offer their services over access lines (e.g. Amsterdam).

> Now cities are dependent on those franchise fees for their budgets. And the cable cos rolled up to a national level. So it's mostly the FCC that regulates all of this where they care more about Janet Jackson's breast than providing accurate news to help a democracy function well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy
> 
> It gets worse as people are moving to unicast networks for their "news." But we're really not getting news at all, we're gravitating to emotional validations per our dysfunctions. Facebook et al happily provide this because it sells more ads. And then the major equipment providers claim they're doing great engineering because they can carry "AI loads!!" and their stock goes up in value.  This means ads & news feeds that trigger dopamine hits for addicts are driving the money flows. Which is a sad theme for undereducated populations.

	I am not 100% sure this is a uni- versus broadcast issue... even on uni-cast I can consume traditional middle-of the road news and even on broadcast I can opt for pretend-news. Sure the social media explosion with its auto-bias-amplification incentives (they care for time spend on the platform and will show anything they believe will people stay longer, and guess what that is not a strategy to rhymes well with objective information transmission, but emotional engagement, often negative, but I think we all know this).


> 
> And ChatGPT is not the answer for our lack of education and a public obligation to support those educations, which includes addiction recovery programs, and the ability to think critically for ourselves.

	Yes, for sure not ;) This is a fad mostly, and will go away some time in the future, once people realize that this flavor of machine learning is great for what it is, but what it is is not what we are prone to believe it is...

Regards
	Sebastian


> 
> Bob
>> Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class "textbook":
>> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>> [1]
>> Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success [1]
>> The Stokab report should be required reading for all local government
>> officials. Stockholm is one of the  top Internet cities in the worl...
>> cis471.blogspot.com
>> -------------------------
>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of
>> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM
>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>> Cc: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>; Frantisek Borsik
>> <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>; libreqos
>> <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Dave Taht via Starlink
>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>;
>> bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure
>> w/Comcast chat
>> Hi David,
>>> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:
>>>>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>> communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>>>>      Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water
>> (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is
>> mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in
>> that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different
>> perspective.
>>>>      Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into
>> communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other
>> critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP
>> fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable
>> way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the
>> while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this
>> is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has
>> beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber
>> access lines would also last for decades requiring no active component
>> changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management.
>> (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these
>> typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life
>> times of decades).
>>> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing
>> such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in many
>> states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from building such
>> systems.
>>        A resistance that in the current system is understandable*...
>> btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just think
>> that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we want
>> actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place to
>> implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple ISPs
>> running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There are two
>> ways I see to address this structural problem:
>> a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors for
>> "reasonable" prices
>> b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain the
>> access network
>> None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we already
>> see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a spanner
>> into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, but will
>> not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as would be
>> possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My subjective
>> preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would offer a
>> level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do best, offer
>> internet access service while not pushing the cost of the access
>> network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow a
>> fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to convert
>> to FTTH first....
>> However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I understand
>> it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses hooked up to
>> the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house network
>> design in a future-proof way...
>> Regards
>>        Sebastian
>> *) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing, just
>> that I can see why it is happening.
>>> David Lang
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$
>> Links:
>> ------
>> [1] https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[Dave Collier-Brown]

On 3/29/23 04:28, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>
>
>> On Mar 28, 2023, at 19:47, rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
>>
>> Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get this (structural separation) right.
> There really isn't that much to get wrong, you built the access network and terminate the per household fibers in arge enough "exchanges" there you offer ISPs to lighten up the fibers on the premise that customers can use any ISP they want (that is present in the exchange)... and on ISP change will just be patched differently in the exchange.
> While I think that local "government" also could successfully run internet access services, I see no reason why they should do so (unless there is no competition).
> The goal here is to move the "natural monopoly" of the access network out of the hand of the "market" (as markets simply fail as optimizing resource allocation instruments under mono- and oligopoly conditions, on either side).

We see  the same issue in Canada: some provinces and cities happily
manage the delivery of services over cables hung from province-owned
poles (eg, TCP/IP in New Brunswick).  Other provinces did less well, and
we have "telephone poles" and "hydro poles" on the same street (in
Toronto, Ontario)

There is no real difference between New Brunswick, Ontario or, for that
matter, Minnesota. If a province or city has operated natural monopolies
like the last mile for water and sewer, it can operate the last mile for
any other monopoly.

--dave

--
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com |              -- Mark Twain


CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory.

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[Doc Searls]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4357 bytes --]

Always a mistake to generalize from a sample of one, but in my case I have four, because I live in four places. So I like to think that, to some degree, I represent a kind of market demand.

All those places—Santa Barbara (CA), New York (NY), Bloomington (IN), and San Marino (CA)—are served by cable monopolies (Cox, Spectrum, Comcast/Xfinity) that provide (or at least claim) 1 Gb service... downstream of course. One (Cox) provides 36 Mb of upstream capacity. The other two provide just 10 Mb.  Because of that, residents have no option to do much work, or to store large amounts of data, in clouds (to mention just one grace of upstream capacity). The market is rigged for consumption, not production, on the TV model. Same as it has been since commercial activity began to explode in 1995, when John Perry Barlow wrote Death From Above. It's killer. Please read it: https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/203356.203358 <https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/203356.203358>. 

But here in Bloomington, where I am writing now, the city has come up with a public/private arrangement that has much promise:

https://www.bloomington.in.gov/fiber <https://www.bloomington.in.gov/fiber>

See what you think. 

For me, the promise of fiber is a huge attraction to living and working here. And I am not alone.

Doc

> On Mar 29, 2023, at 8:27 AM, Dave Collier-Brown via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> On 3/29/23 04:28, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote:
>> Hi Bob,
>> 
>> 
>>> On Mar 28, 2023, at 19:47, rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get this (structural separation) right.
>> There really isn't that much to get wrong, you built the access network and terminate the per household fibers in arge enough "exchanges" there you offer ISPs to lighten up the fibers on the premise that customers can use any ISP they want (that is present in the exchange)... and on ISP change will just be patched differently in the exchange.
>> While I think that local "government" also could successfully run internet access services, I see no reason why they should do so (unless there is no competition).
>> The goal here is to move the "natural monopoly" of the access network out of the hand of the "market" (as markets simply fail as optimizing resource allocation instruments under mono- and oligopoly conditions, on either side).
> 
> We see  the same issue in Canada: some provinces and cities happily
> manage the delivery of services over cables hung from province-owned
> poles (eg, TCP/IP in New Brunswick).  Other provinces did less well, and
> we have "telephone poles" and "hydro poles" on the same street (in
> Toronto, Ontario)
> 
> There is no real difference between New Brunswick, Ontario or, for that
> matter, Minnesota. If a province or city has operated natural monopolies
> like the last mile for water and sewer, it can operate the last mile for
> any other monopoly.
> 
> --dave
> 
> --
> David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
> System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
> dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com |              -- Mark Twain
> 
> 
> CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory.
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5865 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[Frantisek Borsik]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 12601 bytes --]

Guys, tell me why - besides that it's just the usual, human nature - why
every discussion here ends with our version of the "reductio ad Hitlerum",
which is, in my mind, more or less subtle attack on capitalism,
entrepreneurship, corporations, market and the like.
Also, more importantly, we all want to close that goddamn digital divide.
And we will never gonna do it with fiber ONLY...not to mention FiWi.

Also, if there are some fruitful attempts to build some community
broadband, be it fiber, wireless or mix...we end up with "yeah, but it's
not done in big cities, just in some rural areas."

We need to close the digital divide - which is, mostly, locate in the rural
areas, e.g. to bring broadband where it's not or where it's not sufficient
and there is a lot of tools in the toolbox, not just fiber, and every
single one of them has its place and should be used and funded by the grant
money. The majority of these places need to be served quickly and on the
best effort a.k.a what is actually possible and feasible in their
respective territory, terrain...and on on the BS notion "GIGABIT or
NOTHING", or even 100/20 or nothing, when 25/5 would be more than enough,
for most of the cases, in the foreseeable future.

To let me bitch a bit about those bad corporations :) - just take a look on
the market with WiFi routers. Most of the mainstream vendors ship old HW
with old SW, it can be even 8-10 years old kernel, they don't care about
CVEs, they barely do some security updates - not to mention the regular SW
upgrades (adding new features), they don't built do last...they want You to
buy a new router every year or two. Dave's write up of this is here:
https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/tango_on_turris/
And what Starlink did? Crazy, ridiculous story
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9gLo6Xrwgw>. It has been improved a bit,
but it was meant to be good right from the box, bufferbloat fixed and all
that jazz, because OpenWrt has it fixed, right?

BUT still, to hand over even more control of the Internet infrastructure to
the government is nonsense. Government can be a good servant, but a bad
master. Exactly like the corporate world.


All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik



https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com


On Wed, Mar 29, 2023 at 10:28 AM Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:

> Hi Bob,
>
>
> > On Mar 28, 2023, at 19:47, rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
> >
> > Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get this
> (structural separation) right.
>
> There really isn't that much to get wrong, you built the access network
> and terminate the per household fibers in arge enough "exchanges" there you
> offer ISPs to lighten up the fibers on the premise that customers can use
> any ISP they want (that is present in the exchange)... and on ISP change
> will just be patched differently in the exchange.
> While I think that local "government" also could successfully run internet
> access services, I see no reason why they should do so (unless there is no
> competition).
> The goal here is to move the "natural monopoly" of the access network out
> of the hand of the "market" (as markets simply fail as optimizing resource
> allocation instruments under mono- and oligopoly conditions, on either
> side).
>
>
> >
> > Pre-coaxial cable & contract carriage, the FCC licensed spectrum to the
> major media companies and placed a news obligation on them for these OTA
> rights. A society can't run a democracy well without quality and factual
> information to the constituents. Sadly, contract carriage got rid of that
> news as a public service obligation as predicted by Eli Noam.
> http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html Hence we get January
> 6th and an insurrection.
>
>
>
> >
> > It takes a staff of 300 to produce 30 minutes of news three times a day.
> The co-axial franchise agreements per each city traded this obligation for
> a community access channel and a small studio, and annual franchise fees.
> History has shown this is insufficient for a city to provide quality news
> to its citizens. Community access channels failed miserably.
>
>         I would argue this is that there are things where cities excel and
> some where they simply are mediocre... managing monopoly infrastructure
> (like roads, water, sometime power) with long amortization times is
> something they do well (either directly or via companies they own and
> operate).
>
> > Another requirement was two cables so there would be "competition" in
> the coaxial offerings. This rarely happened because of natural monopoly
> both in the last mile and in negotiating broadcast rights (mostly for
> sports.) There is only one broadcast rights winner, e.g. NBC for the
> Olympics, and only one last mile winner. That's been proven empirically in
> the U.S.
>
>         Yes, that is why the operator of the last mile, should really not
> offer services over that mile itself. Real competition on the access lines
> themselves is not going to happen (at least not is sufficient number to
> make a market solution viable), but there is precedence of getting enough
> service providers to offer their services over access lines (e.g.
> Amsterdam).
>
> > Now cities are dependent on those franchise fees for their budgets. And
> the cable cos rolled up to a national level. So it's mostly the FCC that
> regulates all of this where they care more about Janet Jackson's breast
> than providing accurate news to help a democracy function well.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy
> >
> > It gets worse as people are moving to unicast networks for their "news."
> But we're really not getting news at all, we're gravitating to emotional
> validations per our dysfunctions. Facebook et al happily provide this
> because it sells more ads. And then the major equipment providers claim
> they're doing great engineering because they can carry "AI loads!!" and
> their stock goes up in value.  This means ads & news feeds that trigger
> dopamine hits for addicts are driving the money flows. Which is a sad theme
> for undereducated populations.
>
>         I am not 100% sure this is a uni- versus broadcast issue... even
> on uni-cast I can consume traditional middle-of the road news and even on
> broadcast I can opt for pretend-news. Sure the social media explosion with
> its auto-bias-amplification incentives (they care for time spend on the
> platform and will show anything they believe will people stay longer, and
> guess what that is not a strategy to rhymes well with objective information
> transmission, but emotional engagement, often negative, but I think we all
> know this).
>
>
> >
> > And ChatGPT is not the answer for our lack of education and a public
> obligation to support those educations, which includes addiction recovery
> programs, and the ability to think critically for ourselves.
>
>         Yes, for sure not ;) This is a fad mostly, and will go away some
> time in the future, once people realize that this flavor of machine
> learning is great for what it is, but what it is is not what we are prone
> to believe it is...
>
> Regards
>         Sebastian
>
>
> >
> > Bob
> >> Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class "textbook":
> >>
> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
> >> [1]
> >> Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success [1]
> >> The Stokab report should be required reading for all local government
> >> officials. Stockholm is one of the  top Internet cities in the worl...
> >> cis471.blogspot.com
> >> -------------------------
> >> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of
> >> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> >> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM
> >> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
> >> Cc: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>; Frantisek Borsik
> >> <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>; libreqos
> >> <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Dave Taht via Starlink
> >> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>;
> >> bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> >> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure
> >> w/Comcast chat
> >> Hi David,
> >>> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
> >>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:
> >>>>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
> >> communications infrastructure as life support critical.
> >>>>      Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water
> >> (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is
> >> mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in
> >> that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different
> >> perspective.
> >>>>      Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into
> >> communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other
> >> critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP
> >> fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable
> >> way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the
> >> while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this
> >> is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has
> >> beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber
> >> access lines would also last for decades requiring no active component
> >> changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management.
> >> (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these
> >> typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life
> >> times of decades).
> >>> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing
> >> such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in many
> >> states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from building such
> >> systems.
> >>        A resistance that in the current system is understandable*...
> >> btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just think
> >> that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we want
> >> actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place to
> >> implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple ISPs
> >> running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There are two
> >> ways I see to address this structural problem:
> >> a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors for
> >> "reasonable" prices
> >> b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain the
> >> access network
> >> None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we already
> >> see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a spanner
> >> into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, but will
> >> not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as would be
> >> possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My subjective
> >> preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would offer a
> >> level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do best, offer
> >> internet access service while not pushing the cost of the access
> >> network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow a
> >> fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to convert
> >> to FTTH first....
> >> However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I understand
> >> it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses hooked up to
> >> the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house network
> >> design in a future-proof way...
> >> Regards
> >>        Sebastian
> >> *) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing, just
> >> that I can see why it is happening.
> >>> David Lang
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Starlink mailing list
> >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$
> >> Links:
> >> ------
> >> [1]
> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 16699 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[rjmcmahon]

Hi Sebastian,

I'm fine with municipal broadband projects. I do think they'll need to 
leverage the economy of scale driven by others. An ASIC tape out, just 
for the design, is ~$80M and a minimum of 18 mos of high-skill, 
engineering work by many specialties, signal integrity, etc. Then, after 
all that, one has to get in line with a foundry that needs to produce in 
volume per their mfg economies of scale. These markets fundamentally 
have to be driven by large orders from providers with millions of 
subscribers. That's just the market & engineering reality of things.

An aspect of the FiWi argument is that these NRE spends today and 
tomorrow are mostly from SERDES & lasers/optics in the data centers and 
the CMOS radios & PHYs in handsets. Let us look here for the thousands 
of engineers needed and for the supply of parts for the next decade+. I 
don't see it coming from anywhere else.

Then we need the in-premise fiber installers and the OSP labor forces 
who are critical to our success.

And finally, it's the operations & management and the reduction of those 
expenses in a manner that scales.

Bob
> Hi Bob,
> 
> 
>> On Mar 28, 2023, at 19:47, rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Interesting. I'm skeptical that our cities in the U.S. can get this 
>> (structural separation) right.
> 
> There really isn't that much to get wrong, you built the access
> network and terminate the per household fibers in arge enough
> "exchanges" there you offer ISPs to lighten up the fibers on the
> premise that customers can use any ISP they want (that is present in
> the exchange)... and on ISP change will just be patched differently in
> the exchange.
> While I think that local "government" also could successfully run
> internet access services, I see no reason why they should do so
> (unless there is no competition).
> The goal here is to move the "natural monopoly" of the access network
> out of the hand of the "market" (as markets simply fail as optimizing
> resource allocation instruments under mono- and oligopoly conditions,
> on either side).
> 
> 
>> 
>> Pre-coaxial cable & contract carriage, the FCC licensed spectrum to 
>> the major media companies and placed a news obligation on them for 
>> these OTA rights. A society can't run a democracy well without quality 
>> and factual information to the constituents. Sadly, contract carriage 
>> got rid of that news as a public service obligation as predicted by 
>> Eli Noam. http://www.columbia.edu/dlc/wp/citi/citinoam11.html Hence we 
>> get January 6th and an insurrection.
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> It takes a staff of 300 to produce 30 minutes of news three times a 
>> day. The co-axial franchise agreements per each city traded this 
>> obligation for a community access channel and a small studio, and 
>> annual franchise fees. History has shown this is insufficient for a 
>> city to provide quality news to its citizens. Community access 
>> channels failed miserably.
> 
> 	I would argue this is that there are things where cities excel and
> some where they simply are mediocre... managing monopoly
> infrastructure (like roads, water, sometime power) with long
> amortization times is something they do well (either directly or via
> companies they own and operate).
> 
>> Another requirement was two cables so there would be "competition" in 
>> the coaxial offerings. This rarely happened because of natural 
>> monopoly both in the last mile and in negotiating broadcast rights 
>> (mostly for sports.) There is only one broadcast rights winner, e.g. 
>> NBC for the Olympics, and only one last mile winner. That's been 
>> proven empirically in the U.S.
> 
> 	Yes, that is why the operator of the last mile, should really not
> offer services over that mile itself. Real competition on the access
> lines themselves is not going to happen (at least not is sufficient
> number to make a market solution viable), but there is precedence of
> getting enough service providers to offer their services over access
> lines (e.g. Amsterdam).
> 
>> Now cities are dependent on those franchise fees for their budgets. 
>> And the cable cos rolled up to a national level. So it's mostly the 
>> FCC that regulates all of this where they care more about Janet 
>> Jackson's breast than providing accurate news to help a democracy 
>> function well. 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Bowl_XXXVIII_halftime_show_controversy
>> 
>> It gets worse as people are moving to unicast networks for their 
>> "news." But we're really not getting news at all, we're gravitating to 
>> emotional validations per our dysfunctions. Facebook et al happily 
>> provide this because it sells more ads. And then the major equipment 
>> providers claim they're doing great engineering because they can carry 
>> "AI loads!!" and their stock goes up in value.  This means ads & news 
>> feeds that trigger dopamine hits for addicts are driving the money 
>> flows. Which is a sad theme for undereducated populations.
> 
> 	I am not 100% sure this is a uni- versus broadcast issue... even on
> uni-cast I can consume traditional middle-of the road news and even on
> broadcast I can opt for pretend-news. Sure the social media explosion
> with its auto-bias-amplification incentives (they care for time spend
> on the platform and will show anything they believe will people stay
> longer, and guess what that is not a strategy to rhymes well with
> objective information transmission, but emotional engagement, often
> negative, but I think we all know this).
> 
> 
>> 
>> And ChatGPT is not the answer for our lack of education and a public 
>> obligation to support those educations, which includes addiction 
>> recovery programs, and the ability to think critically for ourselves.
> 
> 	Yes, for sure not ;) This is a fad mostly, and will go away some time
> in the future, once people realize that this flavor of machine
> learning is great for what it is, but what it is is not what we are
> prone to believe it is...
> 
> Regards
> 	Sebastian
> 
> 
>> 
>> Bob
>>> Here is an old (2014) post on Stockholm to my class "textbook":
>>> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html
>>> [1]
>>> Stockholm: 19 years of municipal broadband success [1]
>>> The Stokab report should be required reading for all local government
>>> officials. Stockholm is one of the  top Internet cities in the 
>>> worl...
>>> cis471.blogspot.com
>>> -------------------------
>>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on behalf of
>>> Sebastian Moeller via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2023 2:11 PM
>>> To: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
>>> Cc: dan <dandenson@gmail.com>; Frantisek Borsik
>>> <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>; libreqos
>>> <libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net>; Dave Taht via Starlink
>>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; rjmcmahon 
>>> <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com>;
>>> bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure
>>> w/Comcast chat
>>> Hi David,
>>>> On Mar 26, 2023, at 22:57, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 26 Mar 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Bloat wrote:
>>>>>> The point of the thread is that we still do not treat digital
>>> communications infrastructure as life support critical.
>>>>>      Well, let's keep things in perspective, unlike power, water
>>> (fresh and waste), and often gas, communications infrastructure is
>>> mostly not critical yet. But I agree that we are clearly on a path in
>>> that direction, so it is time to look at that from a different
>>> perspective.
>>>>>      Personally, I am a big fan of putting the access network into
>>> communal hands, as these guys already do a decent job with other
>>> critical infrastructure (see list above, plus roads) and I see a PtP
>>> fiber access network terminating in some CO-like locations a viable
>>> way to allow ISPs to compete in the internet service field all the
>>> while using the communally build access network for a few. IIRC this
>>> is how Amsterdam organized its FTTH roll-out. Just as POTS wiring has
>>> beed essentially unchanged for decades, I estimate that current fiber
>>> access lines would also last for decades requiring no active 
>>> component
>>> changes in the field, making them candidates for communal management.
>>> (With all my love for communal ownership and maintenance, these
>>> typically are not very nimble and hence best when we talk about life
>>> times of decades).
>>>> This is happening in some places (the town where I live is doing
>>> such a rollout), but the incumbant ISPs are fighting this and in many
>>> states have gotten laws created that prohibit towns from building 
>>> such
>>> systems.
>>>        A resistance that in the current system is understandable*...
>>> btw, my point is not wanting to get rid of ISPs, I really just think
>>> that the access network is more of a natural monopoly and if we want
>>> actual ISP competition, the access network is the wrong place to
>>> implement it... as it is unlikely that we will see multiple ISPs
>>> running independent fibers to all/most dwelling units... There are 
>>> two
>>> ways I see to address this structural problem:
>>> a) require ISPs to rent the access links to their competitors for
>>> "reasonable" prices
>>> b) as I proposed have some non-ISP entity build and maintain the
>>> access network
>>> None of these is terribly attractive to current ISPs, but we already
>>> see how the economically more attractive PON approach throws a 
>>> spanner
>>> into a), on a PON the competitors might get bitstream access, but 
>>> will
>>> not be able to "light up" the fiber any way they see fit (as would be
>>> possible in a PtP deployment, at least in theory). My subjective
>>> preference is b) as I mentioned before, as I think that would offer a
>>> level playing field for ISPs to compete doing what they do best, 
>>> offer
>>> internet access service while not pushing the cost of the access
>>> network build-out to all-fiber onto the ISPs. This would allow a
>>> fairer, less revenue driven approach to select which areas to convert
>>> to FTTH first....
>>> However this is pretty much orthogonal to Bob's idea, as I understand
>>> it, as this subthread really is only about getting houses hooked up 
>>> to
>>> the internet and ignores his proposal how to do the in-house network
>>> design in a future-proof way...
>>> Regards
>>>        Sebastian
>>> *) I am not saying such resistance is nice or the right thing, just
>>> that I can see why it is happening.
>>>> David Lang
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Starlink mailing list
>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink__;!!P7nkOOY!vFtTwFdYBTFjrJCFqT0rp0o2dtaz2m-dskeRLX2dIW_Pujge6ZU8eOIxtkN_spTDlqyyzClrVbEMFFbvL3NlUgIHOg$
>>> Links:
>>> ------
>>> [1] 
>>> https://cis471.blogspot.com/2014/06/stockholm-19-years-of-municipal.html

Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] On fiber as critical infrastructure w/Comcast chat

[dan]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4249 bytes --]

On Mar 29, 2023 at 1:02:51 PM, rjmcmahon <rjmcmahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:

> Hi Sebastian,
>
> I'm fine with municipal broadband projects. I do think they'll need to
> leverage the economy of scale driven by others. An ASIC tape out, just
> for the design, is ~$80M and a minimum of 18 mos of high-skill,
> engineering work by many specialties, signal integrity, etc. Then, after
> all that, one has to get in line with a foundry that needs to produce in
> volume per their mfg economies of scale. These markets fundamentally
> have to be driven by large orders from providers with millions of
> subscribers. That's just the market & engineering reality of things.
>
>
Every ASIC necessary to deploy is already on the market in high volume.  No
additional ~$80M needs spent.  ~$80M that MUST come from the customer at
the end of the day.  Another increase in broadband costs.   Every massive
change you suggest will pull money from actually running mainline fiber to
communities where various technologies can already deliver huge speeds at
low latency.  I’m an operator, my primary limitations logistically speaking
is inability to get 10Gbps+ fiber off the existing fiber footprint.  Even
the lowly DSL footprint could be upgraded with relative ease to get a few
hundred Mbps if, and forgive me for leaning not his so hard, the previously
designed monopoly that owned not only the copper plant but also the fiber
that is already there wasn’t waiting around for the next government hand
out before upgrading.   Fiber to the DSLAM and VSDL would be a nearly
instant upgrade to 100+ x 50+ speeds for easily 80% of rural users.

We don’t need a completely different model (FiWi) when we have all of the
parts and pieces in mass production and available right now, we have a
political system that promotes monopoly and actively encourages them to
wait until either a self funded competitor moves in or government money
shows up with mandates.  There is no reason at all to have 3-7Mbps DSL in
most of America.  This is not a technical limit.

An aspect of the FiWi argument is that these NRE spends today and
> tomorrow are mostly from SERDES & lasers/optics in the data centers and
> the CMOS radios & PHYs in handsets. Let us look here for the thousands
> of engineers needed and for the supply of parts for the next decade+. I
> don't see it coming from anywhere else.
>
We have 100G hardware routers from multiple vendors, Qualcomm, Broadcom,
Marvell.  We have 1-100G optics on the market today for cheap.  Marvell
makes a line of chips that can do 40Gbps hardware switch or routed for like
$20, get’s put in $200 MikroTik devices today. A grand gets you into a
device that can do 100G today.  Obviously that’s from the cheapest vendor
but 2-10x that price will get you into the ‘good stuff’.  We already have
this.


> Then we need the in-premise fiber installers and the OSP labor forces
> who are critical to our success.
>
> And finally, it's the operations & management and the reduction of those
> expenses in a manner that scales.
>
>
Where exactly are the costs, operations, and management savings here?

Basically this leads me to the question which I’m asking with an attempt to
avoid condescension, do you/have you run an ISP?  My operations and
management costs are primarily customer service and logistic (vehicles,
labor, and so on) and not network management.

Fiber in-premise has a negative value.  It’s more expensive to terminate
and repair, port costs are more, vastly (like 100x) more likely to damage a
fiber patch cable vs cat5e, and the advantages of fiber are lost on short
distances.  1,2.5, 5, and 10G copper is easy, cheap to terminate, cheap to
install, cheap ports in switches, cheap ports on devices, and fast.  The
entire ‘need’ for fiber in this context is the FiWi concept of centralized
networking which again IMO is something ALL IT/MSP will outright reject
killing it off for business uses and will not fare well for consumers who
are concerned more and more about privacy.

Just my opinion here, but the entirety of the FiWi concept will be dead on
arrival with almost all opposing it and only a few supporters.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 5612 bytes --]