From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-oi1-x235.google.com (mail-oi1-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34A093CBC5 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 11:24:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-oi1-x235.google.com with SMTP id bk32so14400596oib.10 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 08:24:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1678893851; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=R1nmx9LYol+6DGq/9DO61TJaYdkkpoEmxjqiCniNyN0=; b=TMujDeRhgmgINPa7X+Lwy2ol/9hec7vFk8y5MbYEa6ELK6rj1x+MMhdS4TF6tc44+y BN9rmwU2Dawji51INxSqGLeJxfvVJ4pHmlWo4fNBpoyqFbefNbHnLmiQiNFVYQE3Pzb+ Bdna77jymSyF88F8tF4CoyJiq1GU2Ve5v0uFzqLxee2u/aTH2BlaZxNTqFAHDeECAk1W d7cFeeDUa4upLRiP+2PmJ3btF36k2jpWmWGccFExmihLSzdfE1fjZF6X2atFCm4jBf9T U6M7q/I570zKsMB5kL9De/QFIHp6lOlqEFPxLG6Zx4D666pe6rQrwGGfStY7ReU/L/bo soXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678893851; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=R1nmx9LYol+6DGq/9DO61TJaYdkkpoEmxjqiCniNyN0=; b=1SOO2cOMNPnM9fQdma+cxP4DuiFOO0j2NBsSVRC3B3idruln5+ZSjrYHYL5uAEFZ+l IGWfCs21K6QceADcBCKefdbE6I9W8Raq+mhxLLoDn07wD5IiJkfVZ/i00rg2nw2l/G0o DvFe0k1hcfo5UqgJkpLX0rBzY8ilip7vRbRBeVw4ElcW7/QX4rSumAHoaY7oGZhEt2yp wBxDWGu8T8Nd0n4Cj8TUtGwq6Xvt/xr24cYb+Tb1emklp1zjsp2zIGC3/oZSrcvfPYQ6 9FXegk/zUJ8OIhyGquGFMhelA0/C47pQExIBh4HiAmuaflD4D5prKRSHIvRnvdZimPQh JWbw== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKUDlBhR+WxDrUEAp0+aIswAcRra7r1IpU8+3QENVuc6Sqgj40z4 WQfQfbFM0w++zTNg9tGqwrVX+141QnFtiE3Z7p02yt612A8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set9Y2dj7l2+gp22ELUQn7VB2q10jFFR+IbFw2KCKHFkrkOZo5TJQXAStjettIEHpoEyqd0pCJZx/ka+rCNS9U60= X-Received: by 2002:a54:4415:0:b0:386:96b9:e19d with SMTP id k21-20020a544415000000b0038696b9e19dmr911149oiw.1.1678893851159; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 08:24:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a05:6359:a82:b0:104:67b2:1e1a with HTTP; Wed, 15 Mar 2023 08:24:10 -0700 (PDT) From: =?UTF-8?Q?David_Fern=C3=A1ndez?= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 16:24:10 +0100 Message-ID: To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Starlink] On FiWi X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2023 15:24:12 -0000 Hi David, That's true: "any communications infrastructure that you mandate get built into new buildings is going to be obsolete long before the building is" I am afraid this is also true: any communications infrastructure that you do not mandate to get built into new buildings will never make it into them afterwards. So, we end up having things like IAB (Integrated Access and Backhaul) defined to extend 5G coverage to downtown areas, where buildings cannot be touched for historical/artistic reasons (extreme case). Some time ago I tried to install coaxial in a flat that had only copper wiring. It was impossible. Coaxial was too thick to pass through the hole reserved for copper telephone cable (even removing old cables), so I stayed with DSL. It is important that architects consider the cabling needs of homes, not only for electricity. I have used PLC (Power Line Comms) to extend Wi-Fi coverage at multiple floor homes, but it is not perfect solution. I would not recommend it. Wireless mesh repeaters are worst, to my experience. Regards, David > Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 11:37:21 -0700 (PDT) > From: David Lang > To: David Fern=C3=A1ndez > Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > Subject: Re: [Starlink] On FiWi > Message-ID: <8qq0r5n2-s836-1080-3362-2o8nr3qn1044@ynat.uz> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"; Format=3D"flowed" > > any communications infrastructure that you mandate get built into new > buildings > is going to be obsolete long before the building is (especially radio > equipment) > > I am a big fan of using wire (or fiber) directly to equipment when you ca= n. > wifi > is sexy and 'easy' to setup, but there is only so much airtime available, > and > your radio footprint where you produce intereference to other equipment i= s > much > larger than the usable footprint (let alone what your requirements are), = so > it > is far more work to share reasonably. You also are sending a lot of power > places > where it's not useful, so you are wasting energy compared to having > somethign > hard-wired. > > There are times when you need the mobility that radio gives you, and time= s > where > it's advantages outweigh the disadvantages, but please don't fall into th= e > trap > of thinking that wires are obsolete and should be discouraged, it's exact= ly > the > opposite, the more we can hard-wire, the better the mobile devices that > can't be > hard wired can perform. > > David Lang > > On Tue, 14 Mar 2023, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink wrote: > >> Hi Bob, >> >> If you want that FiWi infrastructure on buildings, I am afraid that >> you only get it (in the long term) with a law that makes it mandatory >> to make new buildings with that infrastructure for communications. >> >> In Spain, it should be added to this: >> https://avancedigital.mineco.gob.es/Infraestructuras/Paginas/Index.aspx >> >> Regards, >> >> David >> >>> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2023 21:27:23 -0700 >>> From: rjmcmahon >>> To: Sebastian Moeller >>> Cc: dan , Jeremy Austin , Rpm >>> , libreqos >>> , Dave Taht via Starlink >>> , bloat >>> Subject: [Starlink] On FiWi >>> Message-ID: >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed >>> >>> To change the topic - curious to thoughts on FiWi. >>> >>> Imagine a world with no copper cable called FiWi (Fiber,VCSEL/CMOS >>> Radios, Antennas) and which is point to point inside a building >>> connected to virtualized APs fiber hops away. Each remote radio head >>> (RRH) would consume 5W or less and only when active. No need for things >>> like zigbee, or meshes, or threads as each radio has a fiber connection >>> via Corning's actifi or equivalent. Eliminate the AP/Client power >>> imbalance. Plastics also can house smoke or other sensors. >>> >>> Some reminders from Paul Baran in 1994 (and from David Reed) >>> >>> o) Shorter range rf transceivers connected to fiber could produce a >>> significant improvement - - tremendous improvement, really. >>> o) a mixture of terrestrial links plus shorter range radio links has th= e >>> effect of increasing by orders and orders of magnitude the amount of >>> frequency spectrum that can be made available. >>> o) By authorizing high power to support a few users to reach slightly >>> longer distances we deprive ourselves of the opportunity to serve the >>> many. >>> o) Communications systems can be built with 10dB ratio >>> o) Digital transmission when properly done allows a small signal to >>> noise ratio to be used successfully to retrieve an error free signal. >>> o) And, never forget, any transmission capacity not used is wasted >>> forever, like water over the dam. Not using such techniques represent >>> lost opportunity. >>> >>> And on waveguides: >>> >>> o) "Fiber transmission loss is ~0.5dB/km for single mode fiber, >>> independent of modulation" >>> o) =E2=80=9CCopper cables and PCB traces are very frequency dependent. = At >>> 100Gb/s, the loss is in dB/inch." >>> o) "Free space: the power density of the radio waves decreases with the >>> square of distance from the transmitting antenna due to spreading of th= e >>> electromagnetic energy in space according to the inverse square law" >>> >>> The sunk costs & long-lived parts of FiWi are the fiber and the CPE >>> plastics & antennas, as CMOS radios+ & fiber/laser, e.g. VCSEL could be >>> pluggable, allowing for field upgrades. Just like swapping out SFP in a >>> data center. >>> >>> This approach basically drives out WiFi latency by eliminating shared >>> queues and increases capacity by orders of magnitude by leveraging 10dB >>> in the spatial dimension, all of which is achieved by a physical design= . >>> Just place enough RRHs as needed (similar to a pop up sprinkler in an >>> irrigation system.) >>> >>> Start and build this for an MDU and the value of the building improves. >>> Sadly, there seems no way to capture that value other than over long >>> term use. It doesn't matter whether the leader of the HOA tries to >>> capture the value or if a last mile provider tries. The value remains >>> sunk or hidden with nothing on the asset side of the balance sheet. >>> We've got a CAPEX spend that has to be made up via "OPEX returns" over >>> years. >>> >>> But the asset is there. >>> >>> How do we do this? >>> >>> Bob >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > ------------------------------