From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lj1-x22a.google.com (mail-lj1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18C1E3B29D for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2023 09:33:56 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2cc5d9cf766so6613361fa.2 for ; Sat, 16 Dec 2023 06:33:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1702737234; x=1703342034; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=se9BFd61g/194MWd1bmkawz1CcJ/V3fc+Vd/MfsBuvs=; b=QJ+80CpncHGVGrGxoLmYm2RTSTwPiE6KhQCrbVVrX8eZPtWodfoou5Xeq75xDSAS0b pwRIpMWgKUIrOWC+ngua3V3ScEG8F5EbXTli2iJHMIP0jJJ8XcBSMG4Hul+tUeJ9VcMW BMt8hZnyAn9O8KE2A9Fei3asEsxtmnJl19X38/DUbXDTiJQuHiGUedQ3Vtvm3dclynWU Lm+6h3TG6gvbCIP+JL7ko0CZLTP1pFY1Ex8+6lgkb8AlTjDzHXF47Bgf3APjopT9Hlc4 D8VIun66eCMVNj23cwpUFfAZxxRCe/yG/ZZRInLBxTDmYi+8BugQvWiHOm3i8THmXKAo vlgQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1702737234; x=1703342034; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=se9BFd61g/194MWd1bmkawz1CcJ/V3fc+Vd/MfsBuvs=; b=SziJA7zukUIQ2L9nUtOU6zRtp7rsIJ+urc4+aCAWd1qRVZYnAOamHJUpJI7vgRxxEd nBKOvWZZwIuD7TxLBBwt1IZLf5KSxHV870pweB12igygN3tB0pEWV4YKGlM65liZEHIV JX6VzfuSMvNj19LKZpVHIaQu9wxS/6oehPgGUoMoVNQ9g7gKZFt4aAF5Ukxnj+Kp53xk CE5oxxvQZd7W5B7dmuk7+92F4CwABZaBmyNtNLnHeGV3FnQJkUIk3ThBfqzPG0wq0dng 0mPssalWUBMukFQinA15Ralkm0hwDPyAxZL3/Dym0TuuAzqX8xctRbL5cuZdLEycsnSb Y6fQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzpjcCh+Ro4AAIHM49pWVDkkv0fEWHTeGsCI15BSNOCiAtKc+aB BmTkLCbgr2wmMNICBe6Ozul0slDEbFEmA5KVSadMdpUt32g= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGkfhKrH6v2oBzy7jhsQMK0M+ntvzEX7EOXbDmKGl85iENy4UREpofcBSsKNWsIO10+i14okEYFrbOXlEoj9Ak= X-Received: by 2002:a2e:bd04:0:b0:2cc:21fc:35fb with SMTP id n4-20020a2ebd04000000b002cc21fc35fbmr7639870ljq.37.1702737233857; Sat, 16 Dec 2023 06:33:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a2e:b8d5:0:b0:2c8:9257:bcbc with HTTP; Sat, 16 Dec 2023 06:33:53 -0800 (PST) From: =?UTF-8?Q?David_Fern=C3=A1ndez?= Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 15:33:53 +0100 Message-ID: To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Starlink] [NNagain] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's RDOF Application X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2023 14:33:56 -0000 Even GEO satellites can be useful for certain telemedicine applications: https://www.esa.int/Applications/Connectivity_and_Secure_Communications/Tel= emedicine_via_satellite_improves_care_at_astronaut_landings Note that if all computer programs grow until they add functions to become email clients, all communication systems end up adding telehealth as an application. > Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2023 14:10:46 -0800 (PST) > From: David Lang > To: "David Bray, PhD" > Cc: " Network Neutrality is back! Let=C2=B4s make the > =3D?ISO-8859-1?Q?_technical_aspects_heard_this_time!?=3D" > , David Lang , > rjmcmahon , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > Subject: Re: [Starlink] [NNagain] FCC Upholds Denial of Starlink's > RDOF Application > Message-ID: <045p54s4-r8p3-o2s7-7qq2-r2p6o28ss7q1@ynat.uz> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"; Format=3D"flowed" > > I don't disagree with anything that you say below, but the discussion was= on > the > topic of starlink vs fiber, with the person I was responding to claiming > that we > needed to have women in charge of the Internet companies because of > telehealth > as well. > > I'm a remote worker and VERY aware of how limiting video calls are compar= ed > to > in-person meetings. > > David Lang > > On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, David Bray, PhD wrote: > >> There=E2=80=99s good evidence that physical health can be done over LEO = as long as >> it isn=E2=80=99t low latency dependent. Of course our illustrious listse= rv founder >> Dave Taht will be quick to point out high latency is also found via >> ground-based connections too. >> >> That said, there is still a lot of research debate on whether mental >> health >> services can be delivered effectively over video in general - regardless >> of >> LEO or not. The concern is two fold: >> >> * video is suboptimal to detect tiny tells and other signatures of a >> patient developing a relationship with a health provider >> >> * 2D video actually is worse for brainstorming and creative ideation. On= e >> might say so what relative to delivering healthcare, except the evidence >> showing that video is worse for brainstorming indicates there=E2=80=99s = actually a >> continual subconscious confusion when folks do video calls prompted by t= he >> body trying to discern if the one or more disembodied heads are friend o= r >> foe. Since we cannot see a person=E2=80=99s hands and body movements we = don=E2=80=99t know >> if they=E2=80=99re coming to attack us or not. >> >> So future generations may look back and decide that with video calls we >> were literally messing with our brains=E2=80=99 own natural biological p= rocesses? >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 16:42 David Lang via Nnagain < >> nnagain@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >> >>> why do you think telehealth won't work over LEO services? >>> >>> I've used it personally. >>> >>> Even if women use telehealth more than men, that doesn't say that women >>> have any >>> particular advantage in moving the bits around that make telehealth >>> possible. >>> >>> David Lang >>> >>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: >>> >>>> Women are the primary users and providers of telehealth services. They >>> are >>>> using broadband to care for our population. They also run most of the >>>> addiction services across our country, whatever the addiction may be. = So >>>> gender actually matters. Ask them as providers. Telehealth doesn't wor= k >>> over >>>> LEO (nor does it matter much for men on boats.) Same for distance >>> learning. >>>> >>>> >>> https://www.healthcaredive.com/news/women-more-likely-telehealth-patien= ts-providers-covid-19-pandemic/608153/ >>>> >>>> As Washington considers which virtual care flexibilities should remain >>> in >>>> place post-COVID-19, experts are flagging that paring back telehealth >>> access >>>> and affordability will disproportionately affect women, even as a >>> growing >>>> share of startups emerge to address women=E2=80=99s unique health need= s. >>>> >>>> While women are more likely than men to visit doctors and consume >>> healthcare >>>> services in general, telehealth seems to be uniquely attractive to >>>> women. >>>> >>>> Bob >>>>> who exactly do you think is calling for there to be no Internet >>>>> access? and what in the world does the sex of individuals have to do >>>>> with shipping bits around? >>>>> >>>>> Starlink (and hopefully it's future competitors) provides a way to ge= t >>>>> Internet service to everyone without having to run fiber to every >>>>> house. >>>>> >>>>> As for the parallels with rural electrification, if that problem were >>>>> to be faced today, would the right answer be massive public agencies >>>>> to build and run miles of wire from massive central power plants? or >>>>> would the right answer be solar + batteries in individual houses for >>>>> the most rural folks, with small modular reactors to power the larger >>>>> population areas? >>>>> >>>>> Just because there was only one way to achieve a goal in the past >>>>> doesn't mean that approach is the best thing to do today. >>>>> >>>>> David Lang >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, rjmcmahon wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi All, >>>>>> >>>>>> We're trying to modernize America. LBJ helped do it for electricity >>>>>> decades ago. It's our turn to step up to the plate. Tele-health and >>>>>> distance learning requires us to do so. There is so much to follow. >>>>>> >>>>>> A reminder what many women went through before LBJ showed up. I'm >>>>>> skeptical a patriarchy under Musk is even close to capable. We >>> probably >>>>>> need a woman to lead us, or at least motivate us to do our best work >>> for >>>>>> our country and to be an example to the world. >>>>>> >>>>>> A Hill Country farm wife had to do her chores even if she was ill = =E2=80=93 no >>>>>> matter how ill. Because Hill Country women were too poor to afford >>> proper >>>>>> medical care they often suffered perineal tears in childbirth. Durin= g >>> the >>>>>> 1930s, the federal government sent physicians to examine a sampling = of >>>>>> Hill Country women. The doctors found that, out of 275 women, 158 ha= d >>>>>> perineal tears. Many of them, the team of gynecologists reported, we= re >>>>>> third-degree tears, =E2=80=9Ctears so bad that it is difficult to se= e how they >>>>>> stand on their feet.=E2=80=9D But they were standing on their feet, = and doing >>> all >>>>>> the chores that Hill Country wives had always done =E2=80=93 hauling= the >>> water, >>>>>> hauling the wood, canning, washing, ironing, helping with the >>> shearing, >>>>>> the plowing and the picking. >>>>>> >>>>>> Because there was no electricity. >>>>>> >>>>>> Bob >>>>>>> On Fri, 15 Dec 2023, Sebastian Moeller via Starlink wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Frantisek, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Dec 15, 2023, at 13:46, Frantisek Borsik via Nnagain >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Thus, technically speaking, one would like the advantages of satc= om >>>>>>>>> such as starlink, to be at least 5gbit/s in 10 years time, to >>> overcome >>>>>>>>> the 'tangled fiber' problem. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> No, not really. Starlink was about to address the issue of digita= l >>>>>>>>> divide - >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I beg to differ. Starlink is a commercial enterprise with the go= al >>> to >>>>>>>> make a profit by offering (usable) internet access essentially >>>>>>>> everywhere; it is not as far as I can tell an attempt at >>> specifically >>>>>>>> reducing the digital divide (were often an important factor is not >>>>>>>> necessarily location but financial means). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Every Inernet company " commercial enterprise with the goal to make= a >>>>>>> profit by offering (usable) internet" don't dismiss a company becau= se >>>>>>> of that. Starlink (and the other Satellite ISPs) all exist to servi= ce >>>>>>> people who can't use traditional wired infrastructure >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> delivering internet to those 640k locations, where there is >>> literally >>>>>>>>> none today. Fiber will NEVER get there. And it will get there, it >>> will >>>>>>>>> be like 10 years down the road. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This is IHO the wrong approach to take. The goal needs to be a >>>>>>>> universal FTTH access network (with the exception of extreme >>> locations, >>>>>>>> no need to pull fiber up to the highest Bivouac shelter on Mt. >>> Whitney). >>>>>>>> And f that takes a decade or two, so be it, this is infrastructure >>> that >>>>>>>> will keep on helping for many decades once rolled-out. However giv= en >>>>>>>> that time frame one should consider work-arounds for the interim >>> period. >>>>>>>> I would have naively thought starlink would qualify for that from = a >>>>>>>> technical perspective, but then the FCC documents actually >>> discussion >>>>>>>> requirements and how they were or were not met/promised by starlin= k >>> was >>>>>>>> mostly redacted. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> what do you consider 'extreme locations'? how long a run between >>>>>>> houses is 'too far'? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> we've seen the failure of commercial fiber monopolies in cities wit= h >>>>>>> housing density of several houses per acre (and even where there ar= e >>>>>>> apartment complexes there as well) because it's not profitable >>>>>>> enough. >>>>>>> When you get into areas where it's 'how many acres per house' the >>>>>>> cost >>>>>>> of running FTTH gets very high. I don't think this is the majority = of >>>>>>> the population of the US any longer (but I don't know for sure), bu= t >>>>>>> it's very clearly the majority of the area of the US. And once you >>>>>>> get >>>>>>> out of the major metro areas, even getting fiber to every town or >>>>>>> village becomes a major undertaking. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Is running fiber 30 miles to support a village of 700 people an >>>>>>> 'extreme location'? let me introduce you to Vermontville MI >>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermontville,_Michigan which is less >>>>>>> than an hours drive from the state capitol. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> David Lang