From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lj1-x22d.google.com (mail-lj1-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEFC93B2A4 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2024 05:54:58 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-lj1-x22d.google.com with SMTP id 38308e7fff4ca-2db101c11beso62905401fa.0 for ; Tue, 30 Apr 2024 02:54:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1714470897; x=1715075697; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to; bh=N571xDXag38Rpw7kJxSnu9Z0ikHd1lONwwBN29ErNHA=; b=IULLw5UDymoS2BQw89VERlKTwr7WDVpgqT35EagPoxuu1yb/IVfBUuMIPCeqzZjK9n oKiHby3DS5Zk/N9SV53TWaOQiBqsStOmj6u9ljvUR8UJbl2BSc1stdAVc2KauTBKua3O VnqTv97S5Lca6fpPtZMfes6uUPsAnNDpktoCWLzIaUDAnARoe4SRCRhUxDercu5wh2Ds 0Gt9ZPnYc91j7JtuJuBIJ/FT/NEhuA6D5BFfgydmORDxz4WvmPrbMbsKkp96IlDWXKXU TSRV8kadrssxc6R47FjJEMjH5Ml1hMecfN1HcZvuK462UE6j+3hSskolONlL0Hj7stsu nLUA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1714470897; x=1715075697; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:mime-version:x-gm-message-state :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=N571xDXag38Rpw7kJxSnu9Z0ikHd1lONwwBN29ErNHA=; b=TzxmFLxOC/99WBV51w1jnNpF5VT2eEmWae+GJNX1UDZk1uCnyTiE9xEKLu4x4Sc0D3 7pPiTWzZyM+KcWORM45A+SpcIhT+a6n6yJ2l2Y/kaL6Dcz3V8e5hJ63TLNuzCiW0LASN YIOLjwuKjrkUc3CVm0BwqXp82o3aVUpKmT9wDAoB+3oemnrRxzPNKzFt+z2XYc9fz0lH rWA72IaJFoZaqE9pc/jP5HufaD7iWSGg/RoMiQV2AMlJZ9Hu1iLzeoU+8EW93lD9sV8O fmyzyynPPgyDYnxOudWEDqRTgnpTAQ3/3aOStrGyImKKsmantDqZMAU4MbnPvFtlh1vy j2Kw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyTA4xEtDk4j0jopei3+D4INF341eVWHGZXkDwT2UIOjWoZAfDD t2PkkRys6dGzElDF5omx4JeU8Fo+vwttEx3664LGCWWVY3ZFLlP8dhcjny1SN8fo9Q9udKc0CHX rSr43Vspr5donOkkNr6e61pxvNw72GNXNHEUfqg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHPmvz/o6HzK37kfp6q0ddEuKv1LbScXoX1F6hPaz54dPyk35wkkoweb9vbNFpvc9K3/rJg6MxEPD/8wNWSBJE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:198c:b0:2e0:d40f:2587 with SMTP id bx12-20020a05651c198c00b002e0d40f2587mr2167004ljb.10.1714470896629; Tue, 30 Apr 2024 02:54:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: =?UTF-8?Q?David_Fern=C3=A1ndez?= Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:54:20 +0200 Message-ID: To: starlink Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c57e0206174d5c1f" Subject: Re: [Starlink] =?utf-8?q?It=E2=80=99s_the_Latency=2C_FCC?= X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 09:54:59 -0000 --000000000000c57e0206174d5c1f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Last February, TV broadcasting in Spain left behind SD definitively and moved to HD as standard quality, also starting to regularly broadcast a channel with 4K quality. A 4K video (2160p) at 30 frames per second, handled with the HEVC compression codec (H.265), and using 24 bits per pixel, requires 25 Mbit/s. Full HD video (1080p) requires 10 Mbit/s. For lots of 4K video encoded at < 20 Mbit/s, it may be hard to distinguish it visually from the HD version of the same video (this was also confirmed by SBTVD Forum Tests). Then, 8K will come, eventually, requiring a minimum of ~32 Mbit/s: https://dvb.org/news/new-generation-of-terrestrial-services-taking-shape-in= -europe The latest codec VVC (H.266) may reduce the required data rates by at least 27%, at the expense of more computing power required, but somehow it is claimed it will be more energy efficient. https://dvb.org/news/dvb-prepares-the-way-for-advanced-4k-and-8k-broadcast-= and-broadband-television Regards, David Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2024 19:16:27 -0700 (PDT) From: David Lang To: Colin_Higbie Cc: David Lang , "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=CA=BCs the Latency, FCC Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"; Format=3D"flowed" Amazon, youtube set explicitly to 4k (I didn't say HDR) David Lang On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, Colin_Higbie wrote: > Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 01:30:21 +0000 > From: Colin_Higbie > To: David Lang > Cc: "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" > Subject: RE: [Starlink] It=CA=BCs the Latency, FCC > > Was that 4K HDR (not SDR) using the standard protocols that streaming services use (Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+, etc.) or was it just some YouTube 4K SDR videos? YouTube will show "HDR" on the gear icon for content that's 4K HDR. If it only shows "4K" instead of "HDR," then means it's SDR. Note that if YouTube, if left to the default of Auto for streaming resolution it will also automatically drop the quality to something that fits within the bandwidth and most of the "4K" content on YouTube is low-quality and not true UHD content (even beyond missing HDR). For example, many smartphones will record 4K video, but their optics are not sufficient to actually have distinct per-pixel image detail, meaning it compresses down to a smaller image with no real additional loss in picture quality, but only because it's really a 4K UHD stream to begin with. > > Note that 4K video compression codecs are lossy, so the lower quality the initial image, the lower the bandwidth needed to convey the stream w/o additional quality loss. The needed bandwidth also changes with scene complexity. Falling confetti, like on Newy Year's Eve or at the Super Bowl make for one of the most demanding scenes. Lots of detailed fire and explosions with fast-moving fast panning full dynamic backgrounds are also tough for a compressed signal to preserve (but not as hard as a screen full of falling confetti). > > I'm dubious that 8Mbps can handle that except for some of the simplest video, like cartoons or fairly static scenes like the news. Those scenes don't require much data, but that's not the case for all 4K HDR scenes by any means. > > It's obviously in Netflix and the other streaming services' interest to be able to sell their more expensive 4K HDR service to as many people as possible. There's a reason they won't offer it to anyone with less than 25Mbps =E2=80=93 they don't want the complaints and service calls. Now, to = be fair, 4K HDR definitely doesn=E2=80=99t typically require 25Mbps, but it's to the= ir credit that they do include a small bandwidth buffer. In my experience monitoring bandwidth usage for 4K HDR streaming, 15Mbps is the minimum if doing nothing else and that will frequently fall short, depending on the 4K HDR content. > > Cheers, > Colin > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Lang > Sent: Monday, April 29, 2024 8:40 PM > To: Colin Higbie > Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=CA=BCs the Latency, FCC > > hmm, before my DSL got disconnected (the carrier decided they didn't want to support it any more), I could stream 4k at 8Mb down if there wasn't too much other activity on the network (doing so at 2x speed was a problem) > > David Lang > > > On Fri, 15 Mar 2024, Colin Higbie via Starlink wrote: > >> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 18:32:36 +0000 >> From: Colin Higbie via Starlink >> Reply-To: Colin Higbie >> To: "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" >> Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=E2=80=99s the Latency, FCC >> >>> I have now been trying to break the common conflation that download "speed" >>> means anything at all for day to day, minute to minute, second to >>> second, use, once you crack 10mbit, now, for over 14 years. Am I >>> succeeding? I lost the 25/10 battle, and keep pointing at really >>> terrible latency under load and wifi weirdnesses for many existing 100/20 services today. >> >> While I completely agree that latency has bigger impact on how responsive the Internet feels to use, I do think that 10Mbit is too low for some standard applications regardless of latency: with the more recent availability of 4K and higher streaming, that does require a higher minimum bandwidth to work at all. One could argue that no one NEEDS 4K streaming, but many families would view this as an important part of what they do with their Internet (Starlink makes this reliably possible at our farmhouse). 4K HDR-supporting TV's are among the most popular TVs being purchased in the U.S. today. Netflix, Amazon, Max, Disney and other streaming services provide a substantial portion of 4K HDR content. >> >> So, I agree that 25/10 is sufficient, for up to 4k HDR streaming. 100/20 would provide plenty of bandwidth for multiple concurrent 4K users or a 1-2 8K streams. >> >> For me, not claiming any special expertise on market needs, just my own personal assessment on what typical families will need and care about: >> >> Latency: below 50ms under load always feels good except for some >> intensive gaming (I don't see any benefit to getting loaded latency >> further below ~20ms for typical applications, with an exception for >> cloud-based gaming that benefits with lower latency all the way down >> to about 5ms for young, really fast players, the rest of us won't be >> able to tell the difference) >> >> Download Bandwidth: 10Mbps good enough if not doing UHD video >> streaming >> >> Download Bandwidth: 25 - 100Mbps if doing UHD video streaming, >> depending on # of streams or if wanting to be ready for 8k >> >> Upload Bandwidth: 10Mbps good enough for quality video conferencing, >> higher only needed for multiple concurrent outbound streams >> >> So, for example (and ignoring upload for this), I would rather have latency at 50ms (under load) and DL bandwidth of 25Mbps than latency of 1ms with a max bandwidth of 10Mbps, because the super-low latency doesn't solve the problem with insufficient bandwidth to watch 4K HDR content. But, I'd also rather have latency of 20ms with 100Mbps DL, then latency that exceeds 100ms under load with 1Gbps DL bandwidth. I think the important thing is to reach "good enough" on both, not just excel at one while falling short of "good enough" on the other. >> >> Note that Starlink handles all of this well, including kids watching YouTube while my wife and I watch 4K UHD Netflix, except the upload speed occasionally tops at under 3Mbps for me, causing quality degradation for outbound video calls (or used to, it seems to have gotten better in recent months =E2=80=93 no problems since sometime in 2023). >> >> Cheers, >> Colin >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --000000000000c57e0206174d5c1f Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Last February, TV broadcasting in Spain le= ft behind SD definitively and moved to HD as standard quality, also startin= g to regularly broadcast a channel with 4K quality.

A 4K video (2160p) at 30 frames per second, handled with the HEVC compression co= dec (H.265), and using 24 bits per pixel, requires 25 Mbit/s.
=
<= /div>
Full HD video (1080p) requires 10 Mbit/s.

For lots of 4K video encoded at < 20 Mbit/s, it may be hard to distinguish i= t visually from the HD version of the same video (this was also confirmed by = SBTVD Forum Tests).

Then, 8= K will come, eventually, requiring a minimum of ~32 Mbit/s:
<= br>
The latest codec VVC (H.266) may reduce the required data rates by= at least 27%, at the expense of more computing power required, but somehow= it is claimed it will be more energy efficient.

<= /span>
Regards,

David

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2024 19:16:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: David Lang <dav= id@lang.hm>
To: Colin_Higbie <CHigbie1@Higbie.name>
Cc: David Lang <david= @lang.hm>,=C2=A0 "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net"
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=CA=BCs the Latency, FCC
Message-ID: <srss5qrq-7973-5q87-823p-30pn7o308608@ynat.uz>=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"; Format=3D"flowe= d"

Amazon, youtube set explicitly to 4k (I didn't say HDR)

David Lang

On Tue, 30 Apr 2024, Colin_Higbie wrote:

> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 01:30:21 +0000
> From: Colin_Higbie <CHigbie1@Higbie.name>
> To: David Lang <= david@lang.hm>
> Cc: "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.ne= t>
> Subject: RE: [Starlink] It=CA=BCs the Latency, FCC
>
> Was that 4K HDR (not SDR) using the standard protocols that=20 streaming services use (Netflix, Amazon Prime, Disney+, etc.) or was it=20 just some YouTube 4K SDR videos? YouTube will show "HDR" on the g= ear=20 icon for content that's 4K HDR. If it only shows "4K" instead= of "HDR,"=20 then means it's SDR. Note that if YouTube, if left to the default of=20 Auto for streaming resolution it will also automatically drop the=20 quality to something that fits within the bandwidth and most of the "4= K" content on YouTube is low-quality and not true UHD content (even beyond missing HDR). For example, many smartphones will record 4K video, but=20 their optics are not sufficient to actually have distinct per-pixel=20 image detail, meaning it compresses down to a smaller image with no real additional loss in picture quality, but only because it's really a 4K= =20 UHD stream to begin with.
>
> Note that 4K video compression codecs are lossy, so the lower=20 quality the initial image, the lower the bandwidth needed to convey the=20 stream w/o additional quality loss. The needed bandwidth also changes=20 with scene complexity. Falling confetti, like on Newy Year's Eve or at= =20 the Super Bowl make for one of the most demanding scenes. Lots of=20 detailed fire and explosions with fast-moving fast panning full dynamic=20 backgrounds are also tough for a compressed signal to preserve (but not=20 as hard as a screen full of falling confetti).
>
> I'm dubious that 8Mbps can handle that except for some of the=20 simplest video, like cartoons or fairly static scenes like the news.=20 Those scenes don't require much data, but that's not the case for a= ll 4K HDR scenes by any means.
>
> It's obviously in Netflix and the other streaming services'=20 interest to be able to sell their more expensive 4K HDR service to as=20 many people as possible. There's a reason they won't offer it to an= yone=20 with less than 25Mbps =E2=80=93 they don't want the complaints and serv= ice=20 calls. Now, to be fair, 4K HDR definitely doesn=E2=80=99t typically require= =20 25Mbps, but it's to their credit that they do include a small bandwidth= =20 buffer. In my experience monitoring bandwidth usage for 4K HDR=20 streaming, 15Mbps is the minimum if doing nothing else and that will=20 frequently fall short, depending on the 4K HDR content.
>
> Cheers,
> Colin
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Lang <david@lang.hm>
> Sent: Monday, April 29, 2024 8:40 PM
> To: Colin Higbie <colin.higbie@scribl.com>
> Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=CA=BCs the Latency, FCC
>
> hmm, before my DSL got disconnected (the carrier decided they=20 didn't want to support it any more), I could stream 4k at 8Mb down if= =20 there wasn't too much other activity on the network (doing so at 2x=20 speed was a problem)
>
> David Lang
>
>
> On Fri, 15 Mar 2024, Colin Higbie via Starlink wrote:
>
>> Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2024 18:32:36 +0000
>> From: Colin Higbie via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>= ;
>> Reply-To: Colin Higbie <colin.higbie@scribl.com>
>> To: "starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net" <starlink@lists.bufferbloa= t.net>
>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=E2=80=99s the Latency, FCC
>>
>>> I have now been trying to break the common conflation that dow= nload "speed"
>>> means anything at all for day to day, minute to minute, second= to
>>> second, use, once you crack 10mbit, now, for over 14 years. Am= I
>>> succeeding? I lost the 25/10 battle, and keep pointing at real= ly
>>> terrible latency under load and wifi weirdnesses for many exis= ting 100/20 services today.
>>
>> While I completely agree that latency has bigger impact on how=20 responsive the Internet feels to use, I do think that 10Mbit is too low=20 for some standard applications regardless of latency: with the more=20 recent availability of 4K and higher streaming, that does require a=20 higher minimum bandwidth to work at all. One could argue that no one=20 NEEDS 4K streaming, but many families would view this as an important=20 part of what they do with their Internet (Starlink makes this reliably=20 possible at our farmhouse). 4K HDR-supporting TV's are among the most= =20 popular TVs being purchased in the U.S. today. Netflix, Amazon, Max,=20 Disney and other streaming services provide a substantial portion of 4K=20 HDR content.
>>
>> So, I agree that 25/10 is sufficient, for up to 4k HDR=20 streaming. 100/20 would provide plenty of bandwidth for multiple=20 concurrent 4K users or a 1-2 8K streams.
>>
>> For me, not claiming any special expertise on market needs,=20 just my own personal assessment on what typical families will need and=20 care about:
>>
>> Latency: below 50ms under load always feels good except for some >> intensive gaming (I don't see any benefit to getting loaded la= tency
>> further below ~20ms for typical applications, with an exception fo= r
>> cloud-based gaming that benefits with lower latency all the way do= wn
>> to about 5ms for young, really fast players, the rest of us won= 9;t be
>> able to tell the difference)
>>
>> Download Bandwidth: 10Mbps good enough if not doing UHD video
>> streaming
>>
>> Download Bandwidth: 25 - 100Mbps if doing UHD video streaming,
>> depending on # of streams or if wanting to be ready for 8k
>>
>> Upload Bandwidth: 10Mbps good enough for quality video conferencin= g,
>> higher only needed for multiple concurrent outbound streams
>>
>> So, for example (and ignoring upload for this), I would rather=20 have latency at 50ms (under load) and DL bandwidth of 25Mbps than=20 latency of 1ms with a max bandwidth of 10Mbps, because the super-low=20 latency doesn't solve the problem with insufficient bandwidth to watch= =20 4K HDR content. But, I'd also rather have latency of 20ms with 100Mbps= =20 DL, then latency that exceeds 100ms under load with 1Gbps DL bandwidth. I think the important thing is to reach "good enough" on both, not= just=20 excel at one while falling short of "good enough" on the other. >>
>> Note that Starlink handles all of this well, including kids=20 watching YouTube while my wife and I watch 4K UHD Netflix, except the=20 upload speed occasionally tops at under 3Mbps for me, causing quality=20 degradation for outbound video calls (or used to, it seems to have=20 gotten better in recent months =E2=80=93 no problems since sometime in 2023= ).
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Colin
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starl= ink
>
--000000000000c57e0206174d5c1f--