From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pj1-x102b.google.com (mail-pj1-x102b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2E083B29E for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 08:50:20 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102b.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-247399d518dso613220a91.0 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 05:50:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681995020; x=1684587020; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=OmuOhr4qY4Rwn9yowd3NIQHCak/1x9XM/+xIJEnTYhQ=; b=nS1LB/2WOyEBorqteyvLLsboTh7SU8+olRB7Zq4g1PfUgIeusIMTrarcMfbCUmVdLh YT418WOrvezq3+Bb+bPZFo+ok7S5LMPLTEnCTGpbF6NZvQk+4+/qBGi1eDn4niYW1ASr PY0Edjul9XZ/sEkmUj3aOvw9j5+hprZMpUmGA/1jOUGdYXgL7icVTjCAARrULlHemCaA WwI0iJqKPGPiRFWbElvxaP1dZoM2QZtRIsdS3HxO7gxzsKV+uFc28DdnUdUaP43Z/tD8 hP4e0zosP0tNve35RnJvCDvb3GJdPcW0zPO+x5iAu5pQqiP6PoWVYGpovhx0QQuoirkR vKXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681995020; x=1684587020; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=OmuOhr4qY4Rwn9yowd3NIQHCak/1x9XM/+xIJEnTYhQ=; b=iP3qZvNfUr7ngl5B8h6GRmG5rwsyiwQWDRkAZS3pSWHilaSu0MtWlLQpqH5AjFXcTX qUIy/FCDIOaTv1pzi3m6SFbtPB1xP41SM/VMjqVXsxbhDXHtKYUvY96I6U9ramq01SAr fejSAPhXxOPv6OVM7xpGFbfkhWHcXF3Xxg0H7FKv1X3g1XJOQzNKY2+jhAlVKraf5xKr sPTd0dmxqzLlzAeP/ZswYK5mNXtWOZJDMM9oLa3AaNhw1IGQCTd2wqZciYzlXcBPQTqD IChy7Cq61eceWWKEQ8qBWJ2jjrhICxogQG1Hcqru/eXwTM1EZtUMYG21HcXmCbWDiYOa lNuQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9eZ19uxdflBM67Z2+Q96E1lRbZIDZFqoGv2Iy/rmBFt95lHuhzG WVn6DXz31ML8oI3FVZPm3NtgaZxtCT2TScS5by4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350ZdXcKxV2EZf0aVnZp9DMvb38KIHTE4IEAxtnjpTEFc1uOLXWRBxkDO5ppaD2r54DhTVWPN3XO2c8ADGl/3TI4= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:297:b0:234:f77:d6d2 with SMTP id az23-20020a17090b029700b002340f77d6d2mr1472369pjb.45.1681995019425; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 05:50:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1272.1681406523@localhost> <8151.1681416108@localhost> <24341.1681947286@localhost> <4f0fa01d97325$3f72e9a0$be58bce0$@evslin.com> In-Reply-To: From: Hesham ElBakoury Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 05:50:07 -0700 Message-ID: To: Chris Adams Cc: Daniel Schien , Vint Cerf , tom@evslin.com, Michael Richardson , starlink , e-impact@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a59c0905f9c3fbb7" Subject: Re: [Starlink] [E-impact] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space) X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 12:50:20 -0000 --000000000000a59c0905f9c3fbb7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a white paper on DC in space: https://go.avalanchetechnology.com/datacenters-in-space-whitepaper Hesham On Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 2:32 AM Chris Adams wrote: > Hi folks, > > Is there a link to the underlying assumptions in for this "data centres i= n > space=E2=80=9D story or the report? > > The press release mentioned *solar powerplants generating several hundred > megawatts*. That would require a *massive* amount of solar! > > For context, this list here shows the largest solar plants in the US, as > of June 2021: > > https://list.solar/plants/largest-plants/solar-plants-usa/ > > Even the smallest one, kicking out 200 Megawatts has a surface areas of > 5.1 square kilometers, and it only goes upward from there. > > For this to be plausible, you=E2=80=99d need panels to be orders of magni= tude more > efficient than they are on land when in space, even before you think abou= t > how heavy it would be get multiple square kilometres of solar panel into > orbit. > > C > > > > Chris Adams > > Executive Director > > w: thegreenwebfoundation.org > e: chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org > t: @mrchrisadams > > German Office > Naunynstrasse 40 > 10999 Berlin > Germany > > See our contact page for more details > https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/ > > Book a short call with me to discuss something. > https://cal.com/mrchrisadams > Chris Adams > > Executive Director > > w: thegreenwebfoundation.org > e: chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org > t: @mrchrisadams > > German Office > Naunynstrasse 40 > 10999 Berlin > Germany > > See our contact page for more details > https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/ > > Book a short call with me to discuss something. > https://cal.com/mrchrisadams > > > On 20. Apr 2023, at 07:43, Daniel Schien > wrote: > > I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of the time= . > So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to go up with them. > > I'd like to also know what the launch cost is. > > Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a 100kg satellite payload: > > "TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (including Ariane 6 > launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory and launched with a > re-usable rocket." > > Depending on the type of server that should go up there, this is a fair > amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight. > > The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong: > > "Data centers are big energy consumers =E2=80=93 between 2% and 3% of all= global > consumption =E2=80=93 a rate that is doubling every year." > > The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of 30,000) > in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in total (so let's > than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling every year. That's just > completely wrong. > > > Daniel Schien > Senior Lecturer in Computer Science > Department of Computer Science | University of Bristol > *Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022* > > bris.ac.uk/software-engineering > Watch: https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI > > Merchant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB > *Book a meeting*: > https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/book= i > > ------------------------------ > *From:* E-impact on behalf of Vint Cerf 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM > *To:* tom@evslin.com > *Cc:* Michael Richardson ; starlink < > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber > IXPs in space) > > O&M will be a bear > v > > > On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13=E2=80=AFPM Tom Evslin via Starlink < > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the > exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual, > things have not happened as quickly as I predicted > https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-r= oadmap.html > > -----Original Message----- > From: Starlink On Behalf Of > Michael Richardson via Starlink > Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM > To: starlink ; e-impact@ietf.org > Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space) > > > I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight. > (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first > objective"! > > > https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thale= s-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data > > Cannes, November 14, 2022 =E2=80=93 Thales Alenia Space, the joint compan= y between > Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Commissi= on > to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emission a= nd > Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of > Europe=E2=80=99s vast Horizon Europe research program. > > Digital technology=E2=80=99s expanding environmental footprint is becomin= g a major > challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers > in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which = in > turn has a critical energy and environmental impact. > > The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon > emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures > will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based > data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon > neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to > develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and > operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance > technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD > demonstrator. > > This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data > centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground > counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe= =E2=80=99s > Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendl= y, > reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership in > space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operatio= ns > of large infrastructures in orbit. > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > -- > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > Vint Cerf > Google, LLC > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor > Reston, VA 20190 > +1 (571) 213 1346 > > > until further notice > > > > -- > E-impact mailing list > E-impact@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact > > > -- > E-impact mailing list > E-impact@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact > --000000000000a59c0905f9c3fbb7 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
There is a white paper on DC in space:
<= a href=3D"https://go.avalanchetechnology.com/datacenters-in-space-whitepape= r">https://go.avalanchetechnology.com/datacenters-in-space-whitepaper

Hesham
On Thu, A= pr 20, 2023, 2:32 AM Chris Adams <chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org> wrote:
H= i folks,

Is there a link to the underlying assumpt= ions in for this "data centres in space=E2=80=9D story or the report?<= /div>

The press release mentioned solar powerplants g= enerating several hundred megawatts. That would require a massive amount of solar!

For context, this list here sho= ws the largest solar plants in the US, as of June 2021:


Even the= smallest one, kicking out 200 Megawatts has a surface areas of 5.1 square = kilometers, and it only goes upward from there.

Fo= r this to be plausible, you=E2=80=99d need panels to be orders of magnitude= more efficient than they are on land when in space, even before you think = about how heavy it would be get multiple square kilometres of solar panel i= nto orbit.

C



Chris Adams

Executive Director

w:=C2=A0thegreenwebfoundation.org
e:=C2=A0chris@thegreenwebfo= undation.org
t: @mrchrisadams

German Office
Naunynstrasse = 40
10999 Berlin
Germany

See our contact page for more details<= /div>
https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contac= t/

Book a short call with me to discuss=C2=A0something.
ht= tps://cal.com/mrchrisadams
Chris Adams

Executive Director

w:=C2=A0thegreenwe= bfoundation.org
e:=C2=A0chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org=
t: @mrchrisadams

German Office
Naunynstrasse 40
10999 = Berlin
Germany

See our contact page for more details
https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/
Book a short call with me to discuss=C2=A0something.
https://cal.co= m/mrchrisadams


On 20. Apr 2023, at 07:43, Daniel S= chien <Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk> wrote:

I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun = some of the time. So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to = go up with them.=C2=A0

I'd like to also know what the launch cost is.=C2=A0<= /div>

Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a=C2=A0100kg satellite payload:

"TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (inc= luding Ariane 6 launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory an= d launched with a re-usable rocket."

Depending on the type of server that should go up there, = this is a fair amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight.

The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong:

"Data centers are big energy consu= mers =E2=80=93 between 2% and 3% of all global consumption =E2=80=93 a rate that is doubling ever= y year."

The latest was IEA estimating it to be = around 220-320 TWh (out of 30,000) in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years i= n total (so let's than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling ev= ery year. That's just completely wrong.


Daniel=C2=A0Schien

Senior Lecturer in Computer Science
Department of Computer Science=C2=A0|=C2=A0= University of Bristol
Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022

bris.ac.uk/softwar= e-engineering
Watch:=C2=A0https:/= /youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI

Merchant Venturers Building , Wood= land Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB
Book a meeting:=C2=A0https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.a= c.uk/booki

From: E-impact <= e-impact-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Vint Cerf <vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM
To: tom@evslin.com <tom@evslin.com>
Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>; starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org <e-i= mpact@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fib= er IXPs in space)
=C2=A0
O&M will be a bear
v


On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13=E2=80=AFPM Tom Evslin via Sta= rlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the exception= . Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual, things have no= t happened as quickly as I predicted https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roa= dmap.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.n= et> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via Starlink
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e= -impact@ietf.org
Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)


I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
(I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first = objective"!

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide= /space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-s= tudy-data

Cannes, November 14, 2022 =E2=80=93 Thales Alenia Space, the joint company = between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Co= mmission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emi= ssion and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of Europe=E2=80=99s vast Horizon = Europe research program.

Digital technology=E2=80=99s expanding environmental footprint is becoming = a major
challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers i= n Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in = turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.

The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon emissions= from the production and launch of these space infrastructures will be sign= ificantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based data centers, = therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it= is possible to develop the required launch solution and to ensure the depl= oyment and operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assis= tance technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD demonstrator.

This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data ce= nters would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground count= erparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe=E2=80= =99s Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could th= us regain its leadership in space transport and space logistics, as well as= the assembly and operations of large infrastructures in orbit.

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/sta= rlink

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/sta= rlink


--
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Google, LLC
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+1 (571) 213 1346


until further notice



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