[Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara

[Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara

[Hesham ElBakoury]

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https://www.theverge.com/news/631049/alphabet-spins-off-starlink-competitor-taara?mc_cid=1a1e15a2db&mc_eid=105d343de1


Hesham

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Re: [Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara

[David Lang]

Hesham ElBakoury wrote:

> https://www.theverge.com/news/631049/alphabet-spins-off-starlink-competitor-taara?mc_cid=1a1e15a2db&mc_eid=105d343de1

Interesting, a laser in a professionally installed/aligned tower is going to be 
able to have a higher bandwidth than the starlink dishy.

but the claim that it will be far cheaper than Starlink?? that tower and a 
ground station that tracks the satellites in real time is going to be FAR more 
expensive than a dishy. Since it's going to be in motion at all times, it's 
got mechanical parts to wear out, and physically re-aiming a laser between 
connections (on both ends) is going to be a lot slower than electronic aiming of 
a phased array antenna.

As a community gateway where a lot of people share a single satellite 
connection, it could work, but even there I question if it would be cheaper.

There's also the question of the cost of satellites. Are they willing to take 
the Starlink approach of cheap satellites? or are they still thinking 'industry 
standard' where each satellite is far bigger, heavier, and more expensive?

David Lang

Re: [Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara

[Daniel AJ Sokolov]

On 2025-03-17 at 15:50, David Lang via Starlink wrote:
> 
> but the claim that it will be far cheaper than Starlink?? that tower and 
> a ground station that tracks the satellites in real time is going to be 
> FAR more expensive than a dishy. Since it's going to be in motion at all 
> times, it's got mechanical parts to wear out, and physically re-aiming a 
> laser between connections (on both ends) is going to be a lot slower 
> than electronic aiming of a phased array antenna.

Could'nt you have a phased laser array?

BR
Daniel AJ

Re: [Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara

[David Lang]

Daniel AJ Sokolov wrote:

> On 2025-03-17 at 15:50, David Lang via Starlink wrote:
>> 
>> but the claim that it will be far cheaper than Starlink?? that tower and 
>> a ground station that tracks the satellites in real time is going to be 
>> FAR more expensive than a dishy. Since it's going to be in motion at all 
>> times, it's got mechanical parts to wear out, and physically re-aiming a 
>> laser between connections (on both ends) is going to be a lot slower 
>> than electronic aiming of a phased array antenna.
>
> Could'nt you have a phased laser array?

nope, the lasers are far more directional and don't interact with each other 
enough.

David Lang

Re: [Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara

[J Pan]

taara is more like a laser bridge for point-to-point, mostly
stationary nodes, on the ground?
--
J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM), Pan@UVic.CA, Web.UVic.CA/~pan

On Mon, Mar 17, 2025 at 4:10 PM David Lang via Starlink
<starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> Daniel AJ Sokolov wrote:
>
> > On 2025-03-17 at 15:50, David Lang via Starlink wrote:
> >>
> >> but the claim that it will be far cheaper than Starlink?? that tower and
> >> a ground station that tracks the satellites in real time is going to be
> >> FAR more expensive than a dishy. Since it's going to be in motion at all
> >> times, it's got mechanical parts to wear out, and physically re-aiming a
> >> laser between connections (on both ends) is going to be a lot slower
> >> than electronic aiming of a phased array antenna.
> >
> > Could'nt you have a phased laser array?
>
> nope, the lasers are far more directional and don't interact with each other
> enough.
>
> David Lang
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

Re: [Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara

[Marc Blanchet]

> On Mar 17, 2025, at 18:50, David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> Hesham ElBakoury wrote:
> 
>> https://www.theverge.com/news/631049/alphabet-spins-off-starlink-competitor-taara?mc_cid=1a1e15a2db&mc_eid=105d343de1
> 
> Interesting, a laser in a professionally installed/aligned tower is going to be able to have a higher bandwidth than the starlink dishy.
> 
> but the claim that it will be far cheaper than Starlink?? that tower and a ground station that tracks the satellites in real time is going to be FAR more expensive than a dishy. Since it's going to be in motion at all times, it's got mechanical parts to wear out, and physically re-aiming a laser between connections (on both ends) is going to be a lot slower than electronic aiming of a phased array antenna.

Either I don't understand the article or your comment. But my interpretation of the article is that it is "just" (ground) lasers for trunk links between (ground) towers. No satellite involved. It is a replacement of either fibre or radio between (cell) towers. 

Marc.

> 
> As a community gateway where a lot of people share a single satellite connection, it could work, but even there I question if it would be cheaper.
> 
> There's also the question of the cost of satellites. Are they willing to take the Starlink approach of cheap satellites? or are they still thinking 'industry standard' where each satellite is far bigger, heavier, and more expensive?
> 
> David Lang
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

Re: [Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara

[Eric Kuhnke]

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This is not in any way a competitor for starlink. This is a competitor for
V-band (60 GHz) and E-Band (71-86 GHz) point to point bridge radio systems.
It's not point to multipoint and is extremely unlikely to be low enough
cost to deploy as a CPE on peoples' houses or small businesses. If it works
correctly and survives rain at reasonable distances, it's meant to feed a
site/network node that might then distribute service to customers by some
other last mile technology.



On Mon, Mar 17, 2025 at 12:36 PM Hesham ElBakoury via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

>
> https://www.theverge.com/news/631049/alphabet-spins-off-starlink-competitor-taara?mc_cid=1a1e15a2db&mc_eid=105d343de1
>
>
> Hesham
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>

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Re: [Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara

[Brandon Butterworth]

On 17/03/2025 23:45:16, "Eric Kuhnke via Starlink" 
<starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>This is not in any way a competitor for starlink. This is a competitor for V-band (60 GHz) and E-Band (71-86 GHz) point to point bridge radio systems.

Those are getting cheap, and especially cheap V band a lot better
in range, speed, and reliability.

Maybe the free space optics have got a lot better too, they
used to unreliable due to atmospherics. Heat haze from roads
plagued the ones we had.

brandon

Re: [Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara

[Eric Kuhnke]

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There are promising advancements in outdoor 802.11ay based 60 GHz equipment
(particularly the ones that can use the very top end of the 60 GHz band,
directly underneath 71 GHz, which is less affected by rain and atmosphere
than the rest of it). However, the stuff from Ubiquiti has been buggy and
troublesome to put it in the mildest and most polite terms possible. Not
something I would trust for production traffic.


On Mon, Mar 17, 2025 at 4:54 PM Brandon Butterworth <brandon-ml@bogons.net>
wrote:

> On 17/03/2025 23:45:16, "Eric Kuhnke via Starlink"
> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >This is not in any way a competitor for starlink. This is a competitor
> for V-band (60 GHz) and E-Band (71-86 GHz) point to point bridge radio
> systems.
>
> Those are getting cheap, and especially cheap V band a lot better
> in range, speed, and reliability.
>
> Maybe the free space optics have got a lot better too, they
> used to unreliable due to atmospherics. Heat haze from roads
> plagued the ones we had.
>
> brandon
>
>

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Re: [Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara

[David Lang]

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J Pan wrote:

> taara is more like a laser bridge for point-to-point, mostly
> stationary nodes, on the ground?

That's how I interpret what's in the posted article.

David Lang

> --
> J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM), Pan@UVic.CA, Web.UVic.CA/~pan
>
> On Mon, Mar 17, 2025 at 4:10 PM David Lang via Starlink
> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> Daniel AJ Sokolov wrote:
>>
>>> On 2025-03-17 at 15:50, David Lang via Starlink wrote:
>>>>
>>>> but the claim that it will be far cheaper than Starlink?? that tower and
>>>> a ground station that tracks the satellites in real time is going to be
>>>> FAR more expensive than a dishy. Since it's going to be in motion at all
>>>> times, it's got mechanical parts to wear out, and physically re-aiming a
>>>> laser between connections (on both ends) is going to be a lot slower
>>>> than electronic aiming of a phased array antenna.
>>>
>>> Could'nt you have a phased laser array?
>>
>> nope, the lasers are far more directional and don't interact with each other
>> enough.
>>
>> David Lang
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>

Re: [Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara

[David Lang]

Marc Blanchet wrote:

>> On Mar 17, 2025, at 18:50, David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hesham ElBakoury wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.theverge.com/news/631049/alphabet-spins-off-starlink-competitor-taara?mc_cid=1a1e15a2db&mc_eid=105d343de1
>>
>> Interesting, a laser in a professionally installed/aligned tower is going to be able to have a higher bandwidth than the starlink dishy.
>>
>> but the claim that it will be far cheaper than Starlink?? that tower and a ground station that tracks the satellites in real time is going to be FAR more expensive than a dishy. Since it's going to be in motion at all times, it's got mechanical parts to wear out, and physically re-aiming a laser between connections (on both ends) is going to be a lot slower than electronic aiming of a phased array antenna.
>
> Either I don't understand the article or your comment. But my interpretation of the article is that it is "just" (ground) lasers for trunk links between (ground) towers. No satellite involved. It is a replacement of either fibre or radio between (cell) towers.

Since it kept talking about being a replacement for Starlink, I assumed that the 
towers would communicate with satellites. If there are no satellites being used, 
then it's not going to be a Starlink competitor as you would have to build a 
long chain of laser towers to try and provide service everywhere.

David Lang

> Marc.
>
>>
>> As a community gateway where a lot of people share a single satellite connection, it could work, but even there I question if it would be cheaper.
>>
>> There's also the question of the cost of satellites. Are they willing to take the Starlink approach of cheap satellites? or are they still thinking 'industry standard' where each satellite is far bigger, heavier, and more expensive?
>>
>> David Lang
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
>

Re: [Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara

[Michael Richardson]

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David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
    > Since it kept talking about being a replacement for Starlink, I assumed
    > that the towers would communicate with satellites. If there are no
    > satellites being used, then it's not going to be a Starlink competitor
    > as you would have to build a long chain of laser towers to try and
    > provide service everywhere.

(It would work fine for the flat earth types though)
(or if you live on Terry Pratchard's Discword)

But, seriously we have lots and lots of microwave towers from decades ago.
I think most are abandonned due to fibre being better, but getting new rights
of way for fiber is probably hard.  The railways were delighted to be
involved 30 years ago, but now, I suspect the field is closed to any new
entrants.

So lasers between towers makes a lot of sense to me.
Particularly through/across marshy tundra in, for instance, Canada's north.

Just not between pacific islands.

--
]               Never tell me the odds!                 | ipv6 mesh networks [
]   Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works        | network architect  [
]     mcr@sandelman.ca  http://www.sandelman.ca/        |   ruby on rails    [


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Re: [Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara

[Sebastian Moeller]

On 18 March 2025 01:49:17 CET, David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>Marc Blanchet wrote:
>
>>> On Mar 17, 2025, at 18:50, David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hesham ElBakoury wrote:
>>> 
>>>> https://www.theverge.com/news/631049/alphabet-spins-off-starlink-competitor-taara?mc_cid=1a1e15a2db&mc_eid=105d343de1
>>> 
>>> Interesting, a laser in a professionally installed/aligned tower is going to be able to have a higher bandwidth than the starlink dishy.
>>> 
>>> but the claim that it will be far cheaper than Starlink?? that tower and a ground station that tracks the satellites in real time is going to be FAR more expensive than a dishy. Since it's going to be in motion at all times, it's got mechanical parts to wear out, and physically re-aiming a laser between connections (on both ends) is going to be a lot slower than electronic aiming of a phased array antenna.
>> 
>> Either I don't understand the article or your comment. But my interpretation of the article is that it is "just" (ground) lasers for trunk links between (ground) towers. No satellite involved. It is a replacement of either fibre or radio between (cell) towers.
>
>Since it kept talking about being a replacement for Starlink, 

[SM] Over here this was argued more that this might be complementary to starlink in a sense, as it might allow relative quick responses to e.g. extend/replace damaged/overloaded links after say a disaster, but for more densely populated areas were starlink can run into overload easily. While in less dense rural areas LEO internet would be the better choice. However, I would guess the real reason for the comparison in the press might be that google's press release might have pitched something along those lines to nip the idea pro actively in the butt that this would have no utility given starlinks existence, but I have not looked into that material myself...

> I assumed that the towers would communicate with satellites. If there are no satellites being used, then it's not going to be a Starlink competitor as you would have to build a long chain of laser towers to try and provide service everywhere.
>
>David Lang
>
>> Marc.
>> 
>>> 
>>> As a community gateway where a lot of people share a single satellite connection, it could work, but even there I question if it would be cheaper.
>>> 
>>> There's also the question of the cost of satellites. Are they willing to take the Starlink approach of cheap satellites? or are they still thinking 'industry standard' where each satellite is far bigger, heavier, and more expensive?
>>> 
>>> David Lang
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Starlink mailing list
>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>> 
>> 
>_______________________________________________
>Starlink mailing list
>Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara

[Mike Puchol]

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As I work for Taara, I’ll be happy to answer doubts & questions where I can!

With that, a few thoughts. Please note that these are my own personal musings, and not the official position of Taara - I’m not in PR or marcomms.

IMHO the “Taara is going to compete with Starlink” is a comment that was taken by a reporter and turned into the major headline. Think of it in terms of every time you heard of a social network startup becoming the new “Facebook killer”. Taara is currently playing in the middle mile, it is point to point, terrestrial only, and will move into last mile with the help of the optical phased array (the “Taara chip” that was announced at MWC).

In order to directly compete with Starlink, we’d have to become a fully fledged ISP, and vertically integrate the whole distribution down to individual customers - and we know what kind of investment that requires. Can we help ISPs that play on the same turf as Starlink? Sure. Can we help in urban cellular networks where densification is challenged by congested RF and costly fiber? Yes indeed. Are we a replacement for Starlink? No.

As for the current Taara Lightbridge system, it is a point to point, Earth-based, 20 Gbps bidirectional system. The maximum rated distance is 20 km as we keep a certain reserve margin, however, we successfully closed a link at 54 km across the Bay Area, and technically we could achieve 75 km with zero margin.

How do we keep a laser aligned? We use a combination of coarse pointing mirror which gives us 6º at slow rates (think compensation for structural movements due to day/night thermals), and a fine steering mirror that can adjust 0.5º at very high rates, used to compensate vibrations, and to some extent, scintillation.

The chip allows us to remove some of these mechanical components and compress some of the system, for example, removing the coarse pointing mirror and making the telescope smaller. The OPA allows focusing and steering the laser beam, and also compensate for phase and wave front errors, something we can’t do with Lightbridge.

Weather does affect the optical spectrum, to the tune of hundreds of dB/km at certain wavelengths - in scenarios where this can be a factor, we can be deployed in hybrid with an RF system. Our typical use cases are capacity upgrades, where instead of replacing an existing microwave link with another microwave link to maybe gain 1-2 Gbps, the operator can gain 20 Gbps for 95-99.9% of the time.

Best,

Mike
On Mar 17, 2025 at 22:22 -0700, Michael Richardson via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, wrote:
>
> David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > Since it kept talking about being a replacement for Starlink, I assumed
> > that the towers would communicate with satellites. If there are no
> > satellites being used, then it's not going to be a Starlink competitor
> > as you would have to build a long chain of laser towers to try and
> > provide service everywhere.
>
> (It would work fine for the flat earth types though)
> (or if you live on Terry Pratchard's Discword)
>
> But, seriously we have lots and lots of microwave towers from decades ago.
> I think most are abandonned due to fibre being better, but getting new rights
> of way for fiber is probably hard. The railways were delighted to be
> involved 30 years ago, but now, I suspect the field is closed to any new
> entrants.
>
> So lasers between towers makes a lot of sense to me.
> Particularly through/across marshy tundra in, for instance, Canada's north.
>
> Just not between pacific islands.
>
> --
> ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [
> ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect [
> ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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Re: [Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara

[Sebastian Moeller]

Mike,

thank you very much fir sharing that information with us. Makes a ton of sense, But let me ask when is Taara becoming the next facelink/starbook? ;)

> On 18. Mar 2025, at 07:43, Mike Puchol via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> As I work for Taara, I’ll be happy to answer doubts & questions where I can! 
> 
> With that, a few thoughts. Please note that these are my own personal musings, and not the official position of Taara - I’m not in PR or marcomms.
> 
> IMHO the “Taara is going to compete with Starlink” is a comment that was taken by a reporter and turned into the major headline. Think of it in terms of every time you heard of a social network startup becoming the new “Facebook killer”. Taara is currently playing in the middle mile, it is point to point, terrestrial only, and will move into last mile with the help of the optical phased array (the “Taara chip” that was announced at MWC).
> 
> In order to directly compete with Starlink, we’d have to become a fully fledged ISP, and vertically integrate the whole distribution down to individual customers - and we know what kind of investment that requires. Can we help ISPs that play on the same turf as Starlink? Sure. Can we help in urban cellular networks where densification is challenged by congested RF and costly fiber? Yes indeed. Are we a replacement for Starlink? No.
> 
> As for the current Taara Lightbridge system, it is a point to point, Earth-based, 20 Gbps bidirectional system. The maximum rated distance is 20 km as we keep a certain reserve margin, however, we successfully closed a link at 54 km across the Bay Area, and technically we could achieve 75 km with zero margin.
> 
> How do we keep a laser aligned? We use a combination of coarse pointing mirror which gives us 6º at slow rates (think compensation for structural movements due to day/night thermals), and a fine steering mirror that can adjust 0.5º at very high rates, used to compensate vibrations, and to some extent, scintillation.
> 
> The chip allows us to remove some of these mechanical components and compress some of the system, for example, removing the coarse pointing mirror and making the telescope smaller. The OPA allows focusing and steering the laser beam, and also compensate for phase and wave front errors, something we can’t do with Lightbridge.
> 
> Weather does affect the optical spectrum, to the tune of hundreds of dB/km at certain wavelengths - in scenarios where this can be a factor, we can be deployed in hybrid with an RF system. Our typical use cases are capacity upgrades, where instead of replacing an existing microwave link with another microwave link to maybe gain 1-2 Gbps, the operator can gain 20 Gbps for 95-99.9% of the time.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Mike
> On Mar 17, 2025 at 22:22 -0700, Michael Richardson via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, wrote:
>> 
>> David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>> Since it kept talking about being a replacement for Starlink, I assumed
>>> that the towers would communicate with satellites. If there are no
>>> satellites being used, then it's not going to be a Starlink competitor
>>> as you would have to build a long chain of laser towers to try and
>>> provide service everywhere.
>> 
>> (It would work fine for the flat earth types though)
>> (or if you live on Terry Pratchard's Discword)
>> 
>> But, seriously we have lots and lots of microwave towers from decades ago.
>> I think most are abandonned due to fibre being better, but getting new rights
>> of way for fiber is probably hard. The railways were delighted to be
>> involved 30 years ago, but now, I suspect the field is closed to any new
>> entrants.
>> 
>> So lasers between towers makes a lot of sense to me.
>> Particularly through/across marshy tundra in, for instance, Canada's north.
>> 
>> Just not between pacific islands.
>> 
>> --
>> ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [
>> ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect [
>> ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

Re: [Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara

[Steve Stroh]

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Mike:

Wow! I was wondering what made Tara that different from all the previous
FSO vendors until I saw the range number. That’s a huge advantage to be
able to do that at optical thus no RF interference issues.

Thanks for the great writeup!

Steve Stroh

Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his)
Editor
Zero Retries Newsletter - https://www.zeroretries.org
Radios are Computers - With Antennas!


On Tue, Mar 18, 2025 at 02:43 Mike Puchol via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> As I work for Taara, I’ll be happy to answer doubts & questions where I
> can!
>
> With that, a few thoughts. Please note that these are my own personal
> musings, and not the official position of Taara - I’m not in PR or marcomms.
>
> IMHO the “Taara is going to compete with Starlink” is a comment that was
> taken by a reporter and turned into the major headline. Think of it in
> terms of every time you heard of a social network startup becoming the new
> “Facebook killer”. Taara is currently playing in the middle mile, it is
> point to point, terrestrial only, and will move into last mile with the
> help of the optical phased array (the “Taara chip” that was announced at
> MWC).
>
> In order to directly compete with Starlink, we’d have to become a fully
> fledged ISP, and vertically integrate the whole distribution down to
> individual customers - and we know what kind of investment that requires.
> Can we help ISPs that play on the same turf as Starlink? Sure. Can we help
> in urban cellular networks where densification is challenged by congested
> RF and costly fiber? Yes indeed. Are we a replacement for Starlink? No.
>
> As for the current Taara Lightbridge system, it is a point to point,
> Earth-based, 20 Gbps bidirectional system. The maximum rated distance is 20
> km as we keep a certain reserve margin, however, we successfully closed a
> link at 54 km across the Bay Area, and technically we could achieve 75 km
> with zero margin.
>
> How do we keep a laser aligned? We use a combination of coarse pointing
> mirror which gives us 6º at slow rates (think compensation for structural
> movements due to day/night thermals), and a fine steering mirror that can
> adjust 0.5º at very high rates, used to compensate vibrations, and to some
> extent, scintillation.
>
> The chip allows us to remove some of these mechanical components and
> compress some of the system, for example, removing the coarse pointing
> mirror and making the telescope smaller. The OPA allows focusing and
> steering the laser beam, and also compensate for phase and wave front
> errors, something we can’t do with Lightbridge.
>
> Weather does affect the optical spectrum, to the tune of hundreds of dB/km
> at certain wavelengths - in scenarios where this can be a factor, we can be
> deployed in hybrid with an RF system. Our typical use cases are capacity
> upgrades, where instead of replacing an existing microwave link with
> another microwave link to maybe gain 1-2 Gbps, the operator can gain 20
> Gbps for 95-99.9% of the time.
>
> Best,
>
> Mike
> On Mar 17, 2025 at 22:22 -0700, Michael Richardson via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, wrote:
>
>
> David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> Since it kept talking about being a replacement for Starlink, I assumed
> that the towers would communicate with satellites. If there are no
> satellites being used, then it's not going to be a Starlink competitor
> as you would have to build a long chain of laser towers to try and
> provide service everywhere.
>
>
> (It would work fine for the flat earth types though)
> (or if you live on Terry Pratchard's Discword)
>
> But, seriously we have lots and lots of microwave towers from decades ago.
> I think most are abandonned due to fibre being better, but getting new
> rights
> of way for fiber is probably hard. The railways were delighted to be
> involved 30 years ago, but now, I suspect the field is closed to any new
> entrants.
>
> So lasers between towers makes a lot of sense to me.
> Particularly through/across marshy tundra in, for instance, Canada's north.
>
> Just not between pacific islands.
>
> --
> ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [
> ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect [
> ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>

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Re: [Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara

[Craig Polk]

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Thanks Mike for the details. Not sure if you would consider writing your
one view as one of the INGR articles? I know that can be tough since Nokia
never wanted us writing editorials about any of our things. Or if you are
able to get permission or help us get someone that would like to be on an
IEEE Future Networks / INGR podcast, that would be great to talk about
this.

But if any one in the WG would like to write an INGR topic article about
this, which needs to be reviewed by the WG co-chairs, please let us know.
Thanks

Best regards,
Craig

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ᐧ

On Tue, Mar 18, 2025 at 12:03 PM Steve Stroh <steve.stroh@gmail.com> wrote:

> Mike:
>
> Wow! I was wondering what made Tara that different from all the previous
> FSO vendors until I saw the range number. That’s a huge advantage to be
> able to do that at optical thus no RF interference issues.
>
> Thanks for the great writeup!
>
> Steve Stroh
>
> Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his)
> Editor
> Zero Retries Newsletter - https://www.zeroretries.org
> Radios are Computers - With Antennas!
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 18, 2025 at 02:43 Mike Puchol via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> As I work for Taara, I’ll be happy to answer doubts & questions where I
>> can!
>>
>> With that, a few thoughts. Please note that these are my own personal
>> musings, and not the official position of Taara - I’m not in PR or marcomms.
>>
>> IMHO the “Taara is going to compete with Starlink” is a comment that was
>> taken by a reporter and turned into the major headline. Think of it in
>> terms of every time you heard of a social network startup becoming the new
>> “Facebook killer”. Taara is currently playing in the middle mile, it is
>> point to point, terrestrial only, and will move into last mile with the
>> help of the optical phased array (the “Taara chip” that was announced at
>> MWC).
>>
>> In order to directly compete with Starlink, we’d have to become a fully
>> fledged ISP, and vertically integrate the whole distribution down to
>> individual customers - and we know what kind of investment that requires.
>> Can we help ISPs that play on the same turf as Starlink? Sure. Can we help
>> in urban cellular networks where densification is challenged by congested
>> RF and costly fiber? Yes indeed. Are we a replacement for Starlink? No.
>>
>> As for the current Taara Lightbridge system, it is a point to point,
>> Earth-based, 20 Gbps bidirectional system. The maximum rated distance is 20
>> km as we keep a certain reserve margin, however, we successfully closed a
>> link at 54 km across the Bay Area, and technically we could achieve 75 km
>> with zero margin.
>>
>> How do we keep a laser aligned? We use a combination of coarse pointing
>> mirror which gives us 6º at slow rates (think compensation for structural
>> movements due to day/night thermals), and a fine steering mirror that can
>> adjust 0.5º at very high rates, used to compensate vibrations, and to some
>> extent, scintillation.
>>
>> The chip allows us to remove some of these mechanical components and
>> compress some of the system, for example, removing the coarse pointing
>> mirror and making the telescope smaller. The OPA allows focusing and
>> steering the laser beam, and also compensate for phase and wave front
>> errors, something we can’t do with Lightbridge.
>>
>> Weather does affect the optical spectrum, to the tune of hundreds of
>> dB/km at certain wavelengths - in scenarios where this can be a factor, we
>> can be deployed in hybrid with an RF system. Our typical use cases are
>> capacity upgrades, where instead of replacing an existing microwave link
>> with another microwave link to maybe gain 1-2 Gbps, the operator can gain
>> 20 Gbps for 95-99.9% of the time.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Mike
>> On Mar 17, 2025 at 22:22 -0700, Michael Richardson via Starlink <
>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, wrote:
>>
>>
>> David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> Since it kept talking about being a replacement for Starlink, I assumed
>> that the towers would communicate with satellites. If there are no
>> satellites being used, then it's not going to be a Starlink competitor
>> as you would have to build a long chain of laser towers to try and
>> provide service everywhere.
>>
>>
>> (It would work fine for the flat earth types though)
>> (or if you live on Terry Pratchard's Discword)
>>
>> But, seriously we have lots and lots of microwave towers from decades ago.
>> I think most are abandonned due to fibre being better, but getting new
>> rights
>> of way for fiber is probably hard. The railways were delighted to be
>> involved 30 years ago, but now, I suspect the field is closed to any new
>> entrants.
>>
>> So lasers between towers makes a lot of sense to me.
>> Particularly through/across marshy tundra in, for instance, Canada's
>> north.
>>
>> Just not between pacific islands.
>>
>> --
>> ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [
>> ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect [
>> ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
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