From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pg1-x530.google.com (mail-pg1-x530.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::530]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 461693B29E for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 08:51:44 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pg1-x530.google.com with SMTP id 41be03b00d2f7-51fcf5d1e44so919235a12.3 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 05:51:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20221208; t=1681995103; x=1684587103; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=pukyMkiQTm2Iuf4o7ihq+qP1woHUx96DW4xajwIy9KE=; b=DWTHBM39JPSxjOF+Y1W1UgTOExuOt4c4XsTVzJqxNC8RaZSyO4Pn6HF8nvhubYQ8oK Djz3ksgbs24kBEa8cKIWgzrEVoI03ai5YnkUm+E4fmVkHP9XmlKIHptHESnE5w7wTDTg aCCMXc9mWZ3eh+mnVm3Y4D5u5wLoHcxOYpji7FVzd3zyvtAfCp3c9zRPvh42SUf5uJ0h IOvNIbjUt+BEsbmYnwR4RAaHAB+MUEloUfWZdb6nFfQRtZkaHtHHQ8lqGtOGNIxiuqNs Um8vH43PxGq9RDwloDbRak+fc+d4NatnnaAKDemIGBOxrdB8KSG7TpWUdYSczpGjClrJ ZZqQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1681995103; x=1684587103; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=pukyMkiQTm2Iuf4o7ihq+qP1woHUx96DW4xajwIy9KE=; b=PG2n+skK4J6p8I1y27dx6ZX+/biPWVq5aDusuOPRfM/CONa5ZI5bl6IL+5yBpg+Qca wk8JJcYrTB9kGbOrtCanr1aS0ew25Zx7lkUfRhM5TWXHe8yA7q+CHWthRaKacKmzaiHV DdRIIe40yloi5pS1oDjfeDAeVNm5Admc//cAT7B/fM+oG06pvJ49Hj5N35ze4wpRtwjX WcieZSmsfGK/etK2mInA9wWWofdR7zVBvEuKvGkr99rR35IGY4d90C6o0paEtBAINT1x 9rBEchWIoXpcIdcWQHPJo95ijb3oRZF8iaL53aZFAUtjzRryUXDxgTtgNRj9mZ5uuHSV +k8Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AAQBX9eq19cWIri5SVv4tQNGrXHzZcQ+ieLRiAumARAYS+6nXsAdE3fL ZD/CBZO/AIg2YUiqQCw5qd7T7QyXv4q9JZjQYRZ50BcaO64= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AKy350br69YX0bbxrVa+VKTS1BgDa2f3/zzYr5hJdr35WRr8ah9mqU/QKfPjk0lD7eSeqX6U6kmgW3hVzB8T5mwqCHk= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3cf:b0:237:c209:5b14 with SMTP id go15-20020a17090b03cf00b00237c2095b14mr1478384pjb.22.1681995103071; Thu, 20 Apr 2023 05:51:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1272.1681406523@localhost> <8151.1681416108@localhost> <24341.1681947286@localhost> <4f0fa01d97325$3f72e9a0$be58bce0$@evslin.com> In-Reply-To: From: Hesham ElBakoury Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 05:51:31 -0700 Message-ID: To: Chris Adams Cc: Daniel Schien , Vint Cerf , tom@evslin.com, Michael Richardson , starlink , e-impact@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a1f28605f9c40039" Subject: Re: [Starlink] [E-impact] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space) X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 12:51:44 -0000 --000000000000a1f28605f9c40039 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry for the typo. The link to the white paper is https://go.avalanche-technology.com/datacenters-in-space-whitepaper Hesham On Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:50 AM Hesham ElBakoury wrote= : > There is a white paper on DC in space: > https://go.avalanchetechnology.com/datacenters-in-space-whitepaper > > Hesham > > On Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 2:32 AM Chris Adams > wrote: > >> Hi folks, >> >> Is there a link to the underlying assumptions in for this "data centres >> in space=E2=80=9D story or the report? >> >> The press release mentioned *solar powerplants generating several >> hundred megawatts*. That would require a *massive* amount of solar! >> >> For context, this list here shows the largest solar plants in the US, as >> of June 2021: >> >> https://list.solar/plants/largest-plants/solar-plants-usa/ >> >> Even the smallest one, kicking out 200 Megawatts has a surface areas of >> 5.1 square kilometers, and it only goes upward from there. >> >> For this to be plausible, you=E2=80=99d need panels to be orders of magn= itude >> more efficient than they are on land when in space, even before you thin= k >> about how heavy it would be get multiple square kilometres of solar pane= l >> into orbit. >> >> C >> >> >> >> Chris Adams >> >> Executive Director >> >> w: thegreenwebfoundation.org >> e: chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org >> t: @mrchrisadams >> >> German Office >> Naunynstrasse 40 >> 10999 Berlin >> Germany >> >> See our contact page for more details >> https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/ >> >> Book a short call with me to discuss something. >> https://cal.com/mrchrisadams >> Chris Adams >> >> Executive Director >> >> w: thegreenwebfoundation.org >> e: chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org >> t: @mrchrisadams >> >> German Office >> Naunynstrasse 40 >> 10999 Berlin >> Germany >> >> See our contact page for more details >> https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/ >> >> Book a short call with me to discuss something. >> https://cal.com/mrchrisadams >> >> >> On 20. Apr 2023, at 07:43, Daniel Schien >> wrote: >> >> I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of the >> time. So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to go up wit= h >> them. >> >> I'd like to also know what the launch cost is. >> >> Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a 100kg satellite payload= : >> >> "TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (including Ariane 6 >> launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory and launched with = a >> re-usable rocket." >> >> Depending on the type of server that should go up there, this is a fair >> amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight. >> >> The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong: >> >> "Data centers are big energy consumers =E2=80=93 between 2% and 3% of al= l global >> consumption =E2=80=93 a rate that is doubling every year." >> >> The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of 30,000= ) >> in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in total (so let's >> than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling every year. That's just >> completely wrong. >> >> >> Daniel Schien >> Senior Lecturer in Computer Science >> Department of Computer Science | University of Bristol >> *Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022* >> >> bris.ac.uk/software-engineering >> Watch: https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI >> >> Merchant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB >> *Book a meeting*: >> https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/boo= ki >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* E-impact on behalf of Vint Cerf >> >> *Sent:* Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM >> *To:* tom@evslin.com >> *Cc:* Michael Richardson ; starlink < >> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org >> *Subject:* Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber >> IXPs in space) >> >> O&M will be a bear >> v >> >> >> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13=E2=80=AFPM Tom Evslin via Starlink < >> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >> >> I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the >> exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual, >> things have not happened as quickly as I predicted >> https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-= roadmap.html >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Starlink On Behalf Of >> Michael Richardson via Starlink >> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM >> To: starlink ; e-impact@ietf.org >> Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space) >> >> >> I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight. >> (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first >> objective"! >> >> >> https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thal= es-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data >> >> Cannes, November 14, 2022 =E2=80=93 Thales Alenia Space, the joint compa= ny >> between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European >> Commission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zer= o >> emission and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orb= it, >> as part of Europe=E2=80=99s vast Horizon Europe research program. >> >> Digital technology=E2=80=99s expanding environmental footprint is becomi= ng a major >> challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data center= s >> in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which= in >> turn has a critical energy and environmental impact. >> >> The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon >> emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures >> will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based >> data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon >> neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to >> develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and >> operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance >> technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD >> demonstrator. >> >> This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data >> centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground >> counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe= =E2=80=99s >> Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friend= ly, >> reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership i= n >> space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operati= ons >> of large infrastructures in orbit. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> >> >> >> -- >> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: >> Vint Cerf >> Google, LLC >> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor >> Reston, VA 20190 >> +1 (571) 213 1346 >> >> >> until further notice >> >> >> >> -- >> E-impact mailing list >> E-impact@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact >> >> >> -- >> E-impact mailing list >> E-impact@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact >> > --000000000000a1f28605f9c40039 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry for the typo. The link to the white paper is=C2=A0<= a href=3D"https://go.avalanche-technology.com/datacenters-in-space-whitepap= er">https://go.avalanche-technology.com/datacenters-in-space-whitepaper=

Hesham

On Thu, Apr 20, 2= 023, 5:50 AM Hesham ElBakoury <h= elbakoury@gmail.com> wrote:
=
There is a white paper on DC in space:
<= a href=3D"https://go.avalanchetechnology.com/datacenters-in-space-whitepape= r" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">https://go.avalanchetechnology.com/= datacenters-in-space-whitepaper

Hesham

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 2:32 AM Chris Adams <= ;chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org> wrote:
Hi folks,

Is there a link to the underlying assu= mptions in for this "data centres in space=E2=80=9D story or the repor= t?

The press release mentioned solar powerplant= s generating several hundred megawatts. That would require a massive= amount of solar!

For context, this list here = shows the largest solar plants in the US, as of June 2021:


Even the smallest one, kicking out 200 Megawatts has a surface areas = of 5.1 square kilometers, and it only goes upward from there.
For this to be plausible, you=E2=80=99d need panels to be order= s of magnitude more efficient than they are on land when in space, even bef= ore you think about how heavy it would be get multiple square kilometres of= solar panel into orbit.

C



Chris Adams

Executive Director
w:=C2=A0thegreenwebfoundation.org
e:=C2=A0chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org
t: @mrchrisadams
German Office
Naunynstrasse 40
10999 Berlin
Germany

Se= e our contact page for more details
https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/

Book a short c= all with me to discuss=C2=A0something.
https://cal.com/mrc= hrisadams
Chris Adams

Executive Director

w:=C2=A0thegreenwebfoundation.org
e:=C2=A0chris@the= greenwebfoundation.org
t: @mrchrisadams

German Office
Naun= ynstrasse 40
10999 Berlin
Germany

See our contact page for mor= e details
https://www.thegreenweb= foundation.org/contact/

Book a short call with me to discuss=C2= =A0something.
https://cal.com/mrchrisadams


On 20. Apr 2023, at 07:43, Daniel S= chien <Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk> wrote:
I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun = some of the time. So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to = go up with them.=C2=A0

I'd like to also know what the launch cost is.=C2=A0<= /div>

Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a=C2=A0100kg satellite payload:

"TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (inc= luding Ariane 6 launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory an= d launched with a re-usable rocket."

Depending on the type of server that should go up there, = this is a fair amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight.

The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong:

"Data centers are big energy consu= mers =E2=80=93 between 2% and 3% of all global consumption =E2=80=93 a rate that is doubling ever= y year."

The latest was IEA estimating it to be = around 220-320 TWh (out of 30,000) in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years i= n total (so let's than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling ev= ery year. That's just completely wrong.


Daniel=C2=A0Schien

Senior Lecturer in Computer Science
Department of Computer Science=C2=A0|=C2=A0= University of Bristol
Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022

bris.ac= .uk/software-engineering
Watch:=C2=A0https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI

Merchant Venturers Building , Wood= land Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB
Book a meeting:=C2=A0https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHour= s@bristol.ac.uk/booki

From:= E-impact <e-impact-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf= of Vint Cerf <vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM
To: tom@evslin.com <tom@evslin.com>
Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>; star= link <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org <e-impact@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fib= er IXPs in space)
=C2=A0
O&M will be a bear
v


On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13=E2=80=AFPM Tom Evslin via Sta= rlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wro= te:
I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the exception= . Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual, things have no= t happened as quickly as I predicted https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roa= dmap.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bu= fferbloat.net> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via Starlink
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net&= gt;; e-impact@ietf.org
Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)


I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
(I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first = objective"!

https://www.thalesgroup.com/e= n/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-fe= asibility-study-data

Cannes, November 14, 2022 =E2=80=93 Thales Alenia Space, the joint company = between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Co= mmission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emi= ssion and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of Europe=E2=80=99s vast Horizon = Europe research program.

Digital technology=E2=80=99s expanding environmental footprint is becoming = a major
challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers i= n Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in = turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.

The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon emissions= from the production and launch of these space infrastructures will be sign= ificantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based data centers, = therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it= is possible to develop the required launch solution and to ensure the depl= oyment and operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assis= tance technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD demonstrator.

This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data ce= nters would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground count= erparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe=E2=80= =99s Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could th= us regain its leadership in space transport and space logistics, as well as= the assembly and operations of large infrastructures in orbit.

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/l= istinfo/starlink

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/l= istinfo/starlink


--
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346


until further notice



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