Re: [Starlink] fiber IXPs in space

Re: [Starlink] fiber IXPs in space

[David Fernández]

Wondering what benefit would have for any space agency to move its DNS
root server "up there"?

Is GEO an option?

Regards,

David

> Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2023 08:57:47 -0700
> From: Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com>
> To: Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Subject: [Starlink] fiber IXPs in space
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAA93jw6ES-b_9h0K+wZJ64fB+1T2T8or+WNi9kXjp8w0c248Aw@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> "The Kepler Network will streamline on-orbit communications with a
> network infrastructure designed to act as Internet exchange points
> (IXP) for space-to-space data relay. The Internet-ready constellation
> will deliver data to and from spacecraft in real time, enabling
> high-speed data relay through SDA-standard optical terminals."
>
> https://kepler.space/2023/04/13/kepler-raises-92-million-usd-series-c-to-complete-internet-ready-optical-constellation/
>
> I keep wondering when or if Nasa will find a way to move their DNS
> root server "up there" . DNS data is not all that much... it is the
> original distributed database...
>
>
> --
> AMA March 31: https://www.broadband.io/c/broadband-grant-events/dave-taht
> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>

Re: [Starlink] fiber IXPs in space

[Michael Richardson]

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David Fernández via Starlink wrote:
    > Wondering what benefit would have for any space agency to move its DNS
    > root server "up there"?

Probably very little.

    > Is GEO an option?

The delay up to GEO and back is pretty long.
LEO would be better, but doesn't stay in the same place for many.
But, how often do you need to query root name servers if you cache well?

But, advantages that I can see:

1) power.  uninterrupted, disjoint from terrestrial infrastructure.
2) so available all over a hemisphere despite whatever disaster occurs.
3) can answer queries from other space situated systems.


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Re: [Starlink] fiber IXPs in space

[David Fernández]

The delay up to GEO and back is slightly more than half a second.

I am not aware of any space situated systems making DNS queries, are
there any, even proposed?

Maybe for the IPFS?
https://libre.space/2023/04/12/ipfs-tiny/

Regards,

David

2023-04-13 19:22 GMT+02:00, Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>:
>
> David Fernández via Starlink wrote:
>     > Wondering what benefit would have for any space agency to move its
> DNS
>     > root server "up there"?
>
> Probably very little.
>
>     > Is GEO an option?
>
> The delay up to GEO and back is pretty long.
> LEO would be better, but doesn't stay in the same place for many.
> But, how often do you need to query root name servers if you cache well?
>
> But, advantages that I can see:
>
> 1) power.  uninterrupted, disjoint from terrestrial infrastructure.
> 2) so available all over a hemisphere despite whatever disaster occurs.
> 3) can answer queries from other space situated systems.
>
>

Re: [Starlink] fiber IXPs in space

[Michael Richardson]

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David Fernández via Starlink wrote:
    > The delay up to GEO and back is slightly more than half a second.

exactly.

    > I am not aware of any space situated systems making DNS queries, are
    > there any, even proposed?

Someone has to move first before the other systems can think about it...


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Re: [Starlink] fiber IXPs in space

[Tom Evslin]

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There are plenty of DNA queries going to starlink Leo's. Shame for them to come back to a gateway. Cache could be in each bird and/ or full server in Leos accessible by iscSent from my phoneTom Evslin@tevslinblog.tomevslin.com
-------- Original message --------From: Michael Richardson via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> Date: 4/13/23  4:01 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: David Fernández <davidfdzp@gmail.com> Cc: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> Subject: Re: [Starlink] fiber IXPs in space David Fernández via Starlink wrote:    > The delay up to GEO and back is slightly more than half a second.exactly.    > I am not aware of any space situated systems making DNS queries, are    > there any, even proposed?Someone has to move first before the other systems can think about it...

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[Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[Michael Richardson]

I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
(I'm usually a few months behind in reading it)
I like the "first objective"!

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data

Cannes, November 14, 2022 – Thales Alenia Space, the joint company between
Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Commission
to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emission and
Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of
Europe’s vast Horizon Europe research program.

Digital technology’s expanding environmental footprint is becoming a major
challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers in
Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in turn
has a critical energy and environmental impact.

The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon emissions
from the production and launch of these space infrastructures will be
significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based data
centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon
neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to
develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and
operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance
technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD
demonstrator.

This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data
centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground
counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe’s
Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly,
reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership in
space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operations
of large infrastructures in orbit.

Re: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[tom]

I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual, things have not happened as quickly as I predicted https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via Starlink
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org
Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)


I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
(I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first objective"!

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data

Cannes, November 14, 2022 – Thales Alenia Space, the joint company between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Commission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emission and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of Europe’s vast Horizon Europe research program.

Digital technology’s expanding environmental footprint is becoming a major
challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.

The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD demonstrator.

This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe’s Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership in space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operations of large infrastructures in orbit.

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

Re: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[Vint Cerf]

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O&M will be a bear
v


On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13 PM Tom Evslin via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the
> exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual,
> things have not happened as quickly as I predicted
> https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of
> Michael Richardson via Starlink
> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
> To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org
> Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)
>
>
> I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
> (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first
> objective"!
>
>
> https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data
>
> Cannes, November 14, 2022 – Thales Alenia Space, the joint company between
> Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Commission
> to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emission and
> Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of
> Europe’s vast Horizon Europe research program.
>
> Digital technology’s expanding environmental footprint is becoming a major
> challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers
> in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in
> turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.
>
> The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon
> emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures
> will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based
> data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon
> neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to
> develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and
> operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance
> technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD
> demonstrator.
>
> This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data
> centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground
> counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe’s
> Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly,
> reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership in
> space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operations
> of large infrastructures in orbit.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>


-- 
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346


until further notice

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Re: [Starlink] [E-impact] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[Hesham ElBakoury]

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Here is an interesting article about DC in space to mitigate power
consumption.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/english.elpais.com/science-tech/2022-12-28/data-centers-move-into-space-to-mitigate-power-consumption-and-pollution.html%3foutputType=amp

Hesham

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 8:06 PM Toerless Eckert <tte@cs.fau.de> wrote:

> I am looking forward to "Space Cowboys 2 - Data Center Edition"
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 09:16:38PM -0400, Vint Cerf wrote:
> > O&M will be a bear
> > v
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13 PM Tom Evslin via Starlink <
> > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> > > I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the
> > > exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual,
> > > things have not happened as quickly as I predicted
> > >
> https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of
> > > Michael Richardson via Starlink
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
> > > To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org
> > > Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)
> > >
> > >
> > > I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
> > > (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first
> > > objective"!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data
> > >
> > > Cannes, November 14, 2022 – Thales Alenia Space, the joint company
> between
> > > Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European
> Commission
> > > to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero
> emission and
> > > Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part
> of
> > > Europe’s vast Horizon Europe research program.
> > >
> > > Digital technology’s expanding environmental footprint is becoming a
> major
> > > challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data
> centers
> > > in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace,
> which in
> > > turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.
> > >
> > > The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon
> > > emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures
> > > will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by
> ground-based
> > > data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global
> carbon
> > > neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible
> to
> > > develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and
> > > operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance
> > > technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD
> > > demonstrator.
> > >
> > > This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based
> data
> > > centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground
> > > counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of
> Europe’s
> > > Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more
> climate-friendly,
> > > reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership
> in
> > > space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and
> operations
> > > of large infrastructures in orbit.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Starlink mailing list
> > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Starlink mailing list
> > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> > Vint Cerf
> > Google, LLC
> > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> > Reston, VA 20190
> > +1 (571) 213 1346
> >
> >
> > until further notice
>
> --
> E-impact mailing list
> E-impact@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact
>

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Re: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[Ulrich Speidel]

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Where do I even start? The lack of substantial bandwidth between space and ground? The extra latency between ground and space compared to terrestrial cloud, especially as terrestrial cloud edge can move much closer to customers when space can't? The fact that every LEO satellite is both a few 100 km from every customer and out of the customer's range depending on when you look? That low temperatures in space don't mean superconductive chips that produce zero heat, and that that heat is difficult to get rid of in space? That generating power in space is orders of magnitude more expensive than on the ground?

Just because Starlink can provide a service somewhere between DSL and low to medium grade fibre to a few million around the globe it's not "done". Even with 10x the number of satellites and a couple of times the current capacity per satellite, Starlink isn't going to supply more than a couple of 100 million at best, and that's not even accounting for growth in demand from IOT...

--

****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282

The University of Auckland
ulrich@cs.auckland.ac.nz<mailto:ulrich@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
****************************************************************



-------- Original message --------
From: Tom Evslin via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Date: 20/04/23 1:13 pm (GMT+12:00)
To: 'Michael Richardson' <mcr@sandelman.ca>, 'starlink' <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, e-impact@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual, things have not happened as quickly as I predicted https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html<https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html>

-----Original Message-----
From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via Starlink
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org
Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)


I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
(I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first objective"!

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data<https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data>

Cannes, November 14, 2022 – Thales Alenia Space, the joint company between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Commission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emission and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of Europe’s vast Horizon Europe research program.

Digital technology’s expanding environmental footprint is becoming a major
challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.

The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD demonstrator.

This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe’s Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership in space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operations of large infrastructures in orbit.

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink>

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink>

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Re: [Starlink] [E-impact] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[Daniel Schien]

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I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of the time. So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to go up with them.

I'd like to also know what the launch cost is.

Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a 100kg satellite payload:

"TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (including Ariane 6 launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory and launched with a re-usable rocket."

Depending on the type of server that should go up there, this is a fair amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight.

The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong:

"Data centers are big energy consumers – between 2% and 3% of all global consumption – a rate that is doubling every year."

The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of 30,000) in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in total (so let's than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling every year. That's just completely wrong.


Daniel Schien

Senior Lecturer in Computer Science

Department of Computer Science | University of Bristol

Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022

bris.ac.uk/software-engineering
Watch: https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI

Merchant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB
Book a meeting: https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/booki<https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/bookings/>

________________________________
From: E-impact <e-impact-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Vint Cerf <vint=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM
To: tom@evslin.com <tom@evslin.com>
Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>; starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org <e-impact@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

O&M will be a bear
v


On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13 PM Tom Evslin via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:
I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual, things have not happened as quickly as I predicted https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net>> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via Starlink
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>>; e-impact@ietf.org<mailto:e-impact@ietf.org>
Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)


I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
(I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first objective"!

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data

Cannes, November 14, 2022 – Thales Alenia Space, the joint company between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Commission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emission and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of Europe’s vast Horizon Europe research program.

Digital technology’s expanding environmental footprint is becoming a major
challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.

The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD demonstrator.

This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe’s Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership in space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operations of large infrastructures in orbit.

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


--
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346


until further notice




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Re: [Starlink] [E-impact] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[Chris Adams]

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Hi folks,

Is there a link to the underlying assumptions in for this "data centres in space” story or the report?

The press release mentioned solar powerplants generating several hundred megawatts. That would require a massive amount of solar!

For context, this list here shows the largest solar plants in the US, as of June 2021:

https://list.solar/plants/largest-plants/solar-plants-usa/

Even the smallest one, kicking out 200 Megawatts has a surface areas of 5.1 square kilometers, and it only goes upward from there.

For this to be plausible, you’d need panels to be orders of magnitude more efficient than they are on land when in space, even before you think about how heavy it would be get multiple square kilometres of solar panel into orbit.

C



Chris Adams

Executive Director

w: thegreenwebfoundation.org
e: chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org
t: @mrchrisadams

German Office
Naunynstrasse 40
10999 Berlin
Germany

See our contact page for more details
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Book a short call with me to discuss something.
https://cal.com/mrchrisadams
Chris Adams

Executive Director

w: thegreenwebfoundation.org
e: chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org
t: @mrchrisadams

German Office
Naunynstrasse 40
10999 Berlin
Germany

See our contact page for more details
https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/

Book a short call with me to discuss something.
https://cal.com/mrchrisadams


> On 20. Apr 2023, at 07:43, Daniel Schien <Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk> wrote:
> 
> I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of the time. So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to go up with them. 
> 
> I'd like to also know what the launch cost is. 
> 
> Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a 100kg satellite payload:
> 
> "TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (including Ariane 6 launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory and launched with a re-usable rocket."
> 
> Depending on the type of server that should go up there, this is a fair amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight.
> 
> The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong:
> 
> "Data centers are big energy consumers – between 2% and 3% of all global consumption – a rate that is doubling every year."
> 
> The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of 30,000) in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in total (so let's than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling every year. That's just completely wrong.
> 
> 
> Daniel Schien
> Senior Lecturer in Computer Science
> Department of Computer Science | University of Bristol
> Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022
> 
> bris.ac.uk/software-engineering <>
> Watch: https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI
> 
> Merchant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB
> Book a meeting: https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/booki <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/bookings/>
> From: E-impact <e-impact-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Vint Cerf <vint=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM
> To: tom@evslin.com <tom@evslin.com>
> Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>; starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org <e-impact@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)
>  
> O&M will be a bear
> v
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13 PM Tom Evslin via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:
> I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual, things have not happened as quickly as I predicted https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net>> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via Starlink
> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
> To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>>; e-impact@ietf.org <mailto:e-impact@ietf.org>
> Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)
> 
> 
> I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
> (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first objective"!
> 
> https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data
> 
> Cannes, November 14, 2022 – Thales Alenia Space, the joint company between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Commission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emission and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of Europe’s vast Horizon Europe research program.
> 
> Digital technology’s expanding environmental footprint is becoming a major
> challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.
> 
> The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD demonstrator.
> 
> This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe’s Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership in space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operations of large infrastructures in orbit.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> 
> 
> -- 
> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> Vint Cerf
> Google, LLC
> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
> +1 (571) 213 1346
> 
> 
> until further notice
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> E-impact mailing list
> E-impact@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact


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Re: [Starlink] [E-impact] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[Hesham ElBakoury]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5968 bytes --]

The article about the ASCEND project says:
"Very low ambient temperatures in space will dramatically reduce the need
for cooling equipment that consumes enormous amounts of energy. A
significant part of a data center’s energy use is for cooling equipment,
accounting for more than 50% in some facilities. Temperatures can be as low
as -292°F (-180°C) when an orbiting object is in the Earth’s shadow."

Hesham

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 10:44 PM Daniel Schien <Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk>
wrote:

> I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of the time.
> So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to go up with them.
>
> I'd like to also know what the launch cost is.
>
> Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a 100kg satellite payload:
>
> "TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (including Ariane 6
> launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory and launched with a
> re-usable rocket."
>
> Depending on the type of server that should go up there, this is a fair
> amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight.
>
> The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong:
>
> "Data centers are big energy consumers – between 2% and 3% of all global
> consumption – a rate that is doubling every year."
>
> The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of 30,000)
> in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in total (so let's
> than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling every year. That's just
> completely wrong.
>
>
> Daniel Schien
>
> Senior Lecturer in Computer Science
>
> Department of Computer Science | University of Bristol
>
> *Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022*
>
> bris.ac.uk/software-engineering
> Watch: https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI
>
> Merchant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB
> *Book a meeting*:
> https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/booki
> <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/bookings/>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* E-impact <e-impact-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Vint Cerf <vint=
> 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM
> *To:* tom@evslin.com <tom@evslin.com>
> *Cc:* Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>; starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org <e-impact@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber
> IXPs in space)
>
> O&M will be a bear
> v
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13 PM Tom Evslin via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the
> exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual,
> things have not happened as quickly as I predicted
> https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of
> Michael Richardson via Starlink
> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
> To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org
> Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)
>
>
> I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
> (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first
> objective"!
>
>
> https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data
>
> Cannes, November 14, 2022 – Thales Alenia Space, the joint company between
> Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Commission
> to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emission and
> Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of
> Europe’s vast Horizon Europe research program.
>
> Digital technology’s expanding environmental footprint is becoming a major
> challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers
> in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in
> turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.
>
> The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon
> emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures
> will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based
> data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon
> neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to
> develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and
> operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance
> technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD
> demonstrator.
>
> This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data
> centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground
> counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe’s
> Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly,
> reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership in
> space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operations
> of large infrastructures in orbit.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
>
>
> --
> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> Vint Cerf
> Google, LLC
> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
> +1 (571) 213 1346
>
>
> until further notice
>
>
>
> --
> E-impact mailing list
> E-impact@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact
>

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 12316 bytes --]

Re: [Starlink] [E-impact] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[Sebastian Moeller]

Hi Hesham,

the problem is not primarily the temperature of space, but the fact that computers tend to produce heat themselves that needs to be deposed off and vacuum makes a hell of a thermal isolator... so essentially I think you need to radiate your heat out as infrared light, no convection possible.
I am with Ulrich on this, the economics of this do not look favorable, except maybe for a few applications where being closer to the end points (or the satellites themselves) matter enormously.

Regards
	Sebastian


> On Apr 20, 2023, at 13:10, Hesham ElBakoury via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> The article about the ASCEND project says:
> "Very low ambient temperatures in space will dramatically reduce the need for cooling equipment that consumes enormous amounts of energy. A significant part of a data center’s energy use is for cooling equipment, accounting for more than 50% in some facilities. Temperatures can be as low as -292°F (-180°C) when an orbiting object is in the Earth’s shadow."
> 
> Hesham
> 
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 10:44 PM Daniel Schien <Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk> wrote:
> I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of the time. So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to go up with them. 
> 
> I'd like to also know what the launch cost is. 
> 
> Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a 100kg satellite payload:
> 
> "TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (including Ariane 6 launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory and launched with a re-usable rocket."
> 
> Depending on the type of server that should go up there, this is a fair amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight.
> 
> The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong:
> 
> "Data centers are big energy consumers – between 2% and 3% of all global consumption – a rate that is doubling every year."
> 
> The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of 30,000) in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in total (so let's than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling every year. That's just completely wrong.
> 
> 
> Daniel Schien
> Senior Lecturer in Computer Science
> Department of Computer Science | University of Bristol
> Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022
> 
> bris.ac.uk/software-engineering
> Watch: https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI
> 
> Merchant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB
> Book a meeting: https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/booki
> 
> From: E-impact <e-impact-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Vint Cerf <vint=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM
> To: tom@evslin.com <tom@evslin.com>
> Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>; starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org <e-impact@ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)
>  
> O&M will be a bear
> v
> 
> 
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13 PM Tom Evslin via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual, things have not happened as quickly as I predicted https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via Starlink
> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
> To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org
> Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)
> 
> 
> I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
> (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first objective"!
> 
> https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data
> 
> Cannes, November 14, 2022 – Thales Alenia Space, the joint company between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Commission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emission and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of Europe’s vast Horizon Europe research program.
> 
> Digital technology’s expanding environmental footprint is becoming a major
> challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.
> 
> The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD demonstrator.
> 
> This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe’s Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership in space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operations of large infrastructures in orbit.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> 
> 
> -- 
> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> Vint Cerf
> Google, LLC
> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
> +1 (571) 213 1346
> 
> 
> until further notice
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> E-impact mailing list
> E-impact@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

Re: [Starlink] [E-impact] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[David Lang]

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vaccum is a fantastic insulator, you only get rid of heat by radiation (the 
reason the shuttle normally had it's cargo doors open was to expose the 
radiators to space)

the biggest problem with spacecraft over the long run is getting rid of the 
heat.

David LAng

On Thu, 20 Apr 2023, Hesham ElBakoury via Starlink wrote:

> The article about the ASCEND project says:
> "Very low ambient temperatures in space will dramatically reduce the need
> for cooling equipment that consumes enormous amounts of energy. A
> significant part of a data center’s energy use is for cooling equipment,
> accounting for more than 50% in some facilities. Temperatures can be as low
> as -292°F (-180°C) when an orbiting object is in the Earth’s shadow."
>
> Hesham
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 10:44 PM Daniel Schien <Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of the time.
>> So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to go up with them.
>>
>> I'd like to also know what the launch cost is.
>>
>> Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a 100kg satellite payload:
>>
>> "TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (including Ariane 6
>> launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory and launched with a
>> re-usable rocket."
>>
>> Depending on the type of server that should go up there, this is a fair
>> amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight.
>>
>> The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong:
>>
>> "Data centers are big energy consumers – between 2% and 3% of all global
>> consumption – a rate that is doubling every year."
>>
>> The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of 30,000)
>> in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in total (so let's
>> than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling every year. That's just
>> completely wrong.
>>
>>
>> Daniel Schien
>>
>> Senior Lecturer in Computer Science
>>
>> Department of Computer Science | University of Bristol
>>
>> *Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022*
>>
>> bris.ac.uk/software-engineering
>> Watch: https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI
>>
>> Merchant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB
>> *Book a meeting*:
>> https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/booki
>> <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/bookings/>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* E-impact <e-impact-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Vint Cerf <vint=
>> 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM
>> *To:* tom@evslin.com <tom@evslin.com>
>> *Cc:* Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>; starlink <
>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org <e-impact@ietf.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber
>> IXPs in space)
>>
>> O&M will be a bear
>> v
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13 PM Tom Evslin via Starlink <
>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the
>> exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual,
>> things have not happened as quickly as I predicted
>> https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of
>> Michael Richardson via Starlink
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
>> To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)
>>
>>
>> I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
>> (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first
>> objective"!
>>
>>
>> https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data
>>
>> Cannes, November 14, 2022 – Thales Alenia Space, the joint company between
>> Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Commission
>> to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emission and
>> Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of
>> Europe’s vast Horizon Europe research program.
>>
>> Digital technology’s expanding environmental footprint is becoming a major
>> challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers
>> in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in
>> turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.
>>
>> The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon
>> emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures
>> will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based
>> data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon
>> neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to
>> develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and
>> operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance
>> technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD
>> demonstrator.
>>
>> This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data
>> centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground
>> counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe’s
>> Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly,
>> reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership in
>> space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operations
>> of large infrastructures in orbit.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
>> Vint Cerf
>> Google, LLC
>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
>> Reston, VA 20190
>> +1 (571) 213 1346
>>
>>
>> until further notice
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> E-impact mailing list
>> E-impact@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact
>>
>

Re: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[Hesham ElBakoury]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4405 bytes --]

Yves Durand is the director of technology at Thales Alenia Space, the joint
venture charged with studying the feasibility of space data centers, with
the goal of deploying them in the early 2030s.

The article I sent before says: "Durand doesn’t doubt the viability of
building a data center in space, and says that construction will be “fully
automated – no astronauts. In fact, the project involves development of
special, robotic assembly technology.” A founding principle is to design a
modular facility with electronic components that can be easily transported
on a reusable space shuttles. Unlike terrestrial, fiber-based communication
facilities, the data centers in space will use optical technology."

Hesham

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 6:16 PM Vint Cerf via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> O&M will be a bear
> v
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13 PM Tom Evslin via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the
>> exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual,
>> things have not happened as quickly as I predicted
>> https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of
>> Michael Richardson via Starlink
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
>> To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)
>>
>>
>> I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
>> (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first
>> objective"!
>>
>>
>> https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data
>>
>> Cannes, November 14, 2022 – Thales Alenia Space, the joint company
>> between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European
>> Commission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero
>> emission and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit,
>> as part of Europe’s vast Horizon Europe research program.
>>
>> Digital technology’s expanding environmental footprint is becoming a major
>> challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers
>> in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in
>> turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.
>>
>> The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon
>> emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures
>> will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based
>> data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon
>> neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to
>> develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and
>> operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance
>> technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD
>> demonstrator.
>>
>> This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data
>> centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground
>> counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe’s
>> Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly,
>> reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership in
>> space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operations
>> of large infrastructures in orbit.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>
>
> --
> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> Vint Cerf
> Google, LLC
> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
> +1 (571) 213 1346
>
>
> until further notice
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>

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Re: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[Nathan Owens]

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Cheap(ish) Space to Earth optical has been tested by NASA/MIT with the
T-BIRD sat -- it used 2x 100G CFP optics and an off-the-shelf EDFA to send
200Gbps to a 12in telescope on earth while it was overhead.

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 4:25 AM Hesham ElBakoury via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> Yves Durand is the director of technology at Thales Alenia Space, the
> joint venture charged with studying the feasibility of space data centers,
> with the goal of deploying them in the early 2030s.
>
> The article I sent before says: "Durand doesn’t doubt the viability of
> building a data center in space, and says that construction will be “fully
> automated – no astronauts. In fact, the project involves development of
> special, robotic assembly technology.” A founding principle is to design a
> modular facility with electronic components that can be easily transported
> on a reusable space shuttles. Unlike terrestrial, fiber-based communication
> facilities, the data centers in space will use optical technology."
>
> Hesham
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 6:16 PM Vint Cerf via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> O&M will be a bear
>> v
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13 PM Tom Evslin via Starlink <
>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the
>>> exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual,
>>> things have not happened as quickly as I predicted
>>> https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of
>>> Michael Richardson via Starlink
>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
>>> To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org
>>> Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)
>>>
>>>
>>> I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
>>> (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first
>>> objective"!
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data
>>>
>>> Cannes, November 14, 2022 – Thales Alenia Space, the joint company
>>> between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European
>>> Commission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero
>>> emission and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit,
>>> as part of Europe’s vast Horizon Europe research program.
>>>
>>> Digital technology’s expanding environmental footprint is becoming a
>>> major
>>> challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data
>>> centers in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace,
>>> which in turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.
>>>
>>> The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon
>>> emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures
>>> will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based
>>> data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon
>>> neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to
>>> develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and
>>> operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance
>>> technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD
>>> demonstrator.
>>>
>>> This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data
>>> centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground
>>> counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe’s
>>> Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly,
>>> reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership in
>>> space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operations
>>> of large infrastructures in orbit.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Starlink mailing list
>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Starlink mailing list
>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
>> Vint Cerf
>> Google, LLC
>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
>> Reston, VA 20190
>> +1 (571) 213 1346
>>
>>
>> until further notice
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>

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Re: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[Mike Puchol]

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The only way these large constellations are going to be able to realize the promised capacities is by jumping the THz gap and use optical space-to-ground links. I see advances in coherent light giving gains in link budgets, and every time I ask someone in the FSOC industry “couldn’t you use UV lasers?” I get first a puzzled “are you crazy?” look, but is sometimes  followed by a “wait… wat…” look. Other than the inherent danger to humans, UV penetrates clouds nicely.

I eventually see caches onboard satellites, which conform a homogeneous mega-cache, able to improve hit ratio by use of ISL to route traffic to the right nodes. You actually need this as the satellites are constantly moving, so if you have to solve that problem, why not then to the whole way and take advantage?

Best,

Mike
On Apr 20, 2023 at 14:28 +0300, Nathan Owens via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, wrote:
> Cheap(ish) Space to Earth optical has been tested by NASA/MIT with the T-BIRD sat -- it used 2x 100G CFP optics and an off-the-shelf EDFA to send 200Gbps to a 12in telescope on earth while it was overhead.
>
> > On Thu, Apr 20, 2023 at 4:25 AM Hesham ElBakoury via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > > Yves Durand is the director of technology at Thales Alenia Space, the joint venture charged with studying the feasibility of space data centers, with the goal of deploying them in the early 2030s.
> > >
> > > The article I sent before says: "Durand doesn’t doubt the viability of building a data center in space, and says that construction will be “fully automated – no astronauts. In fact, the project involves development of special, robotic assembly technology.” A founding principle is to design a modular facility with electronic components that can be easily transported on a reusable space shuttles. Unlike terrestrial, fiber-based communication facilities, the data centers in space will use optical technology."
> > >
> > > Hesham
> > >
> > > > On Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 6:16 PM Vint Cerf via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > > > > O&M will be a bear
> > > > > v
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13 PM Tom Evslin via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> > > > > > > I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual, things have not happened as quickly as I predicted https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via Starlink
> > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
> > > > > > > To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org
> > > > > > > Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
> > > > > > > (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first objective"!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Cannes, November 14, 2022 – Thales Alenia Space, the joint company between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Commission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emission and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of Europe’s vast Horizon Europe research program.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Digital technology’s expanding environmental footprint is becoming a major
> > > > > > > challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD demonstrator.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe’s Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership in space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operations of large infrastructures in orbit.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Starlink mailing list
> > > > > > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > > > > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Starlink mailing list
> > > > > > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > > > > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> > > > > Vint Cerf
> > > > > Google, LLC
> > > > > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> > > > > Reston, VA 20190
> > > > > +1 (571) 213 1346
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > until further notice
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Starlink mailing list
> > > > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > > > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Starlink mailing list
> > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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Re: [Starlink] [E-impact] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[Dave Collier-Brown]

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Another point they missed: on earth, we can use conductive cooling and transfer the heat from the machines to a flow of air.  In space, we can only use radiative cooling, and we need to be out of the sun to have enough temperature difference.

--dave

On 4/20/23 07:10, Hesham ElBakoury via Starlink wrote:
The article about the ASCEND project says:
"Very low ambient temperatures in space will dramatically reduce the need for cooling equipment that consumes enormous amounts of energy. A significant part of a data center’s energy use is for cooling equipment, accounting for more than 50% in some facilities. Temperatures can be as low as -292°F (-180°C) when an orbiting object is in the Earth’s shadow."

Hesham

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 10:44 PM Daniel Schien <Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk>> wrote:
I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of the time. So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to go up with them.

I'd like to also know what the launch cost is.

Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a 100kg satellite payload:

"TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (including Ariane 6 launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory and launched with a re-usable rocket."

Depending on the type of server that should go up there, this is a fair amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight.

The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong:

"Data centers are big energy consumers – between 2% and 3% of all global consumption – a rate that is doubling every year."

The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of 30,000) in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in total (so let's than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling every year. That's just completely wrong.


Daniel Schien

Senior Lecturer in Computer Science

Department of Computer Science | University of Bristol



Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022

bris.ac.uk/software-engineering
Watch: https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI

Merchant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB
Book a meeting: https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/booki<https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/bookings/>

________________________________
From: E-impact <e-impact-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:e-impact-bounces@ietf.org>> on behalf of Vint Cerf <vint=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org<mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM
To: tom@evslin.com<mailto:tom@evslin.com> <tom@evslin.com<mailto:tom@evslin.com>>
Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca<mailto:mcr@sandelman.ca>>; starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>>; e-impact@ietf.org<mailto:e-impact@ietf.org> <e-impact@ietf.org<mailto:e-impact@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

O&M will be a bear
v


On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13 PM Tom Evslin via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:
I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual, things have not happened as quickly as I predicted https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net>> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via Starlink
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>>; e-impact@ietf.org<mailto:e-impact@ietf.org>
Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)


I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
(I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first objective"!

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data

Cannes, November 14, 2022 – Thales Alenia Space, the joint company between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Commission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emission and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of Europe’s vast Horizon Europe research program.

Digital technology’s expanding environmental footprint is becoming a major
challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.

The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD demonstrator.

This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe’s Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership in space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operations of large infrastructures in orbit.

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net<mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


--
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346


until further notice



--
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--
David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com<mailto:dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com> |              -- Mark Twain


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Re: [Starlink] [E-impact] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[tom]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 6904 bytes --]

The solar collectors should always be on the sun-side of the bird so effective at creating shade as well.

 

From: Hesham ElBakoury <helbakoury@gmail.com> 
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 7:10 AM
To: Daniel Schien <Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk>
Cc: Vint Cerf <vint=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; tom@evslin.com; Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>; starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

 

The article about the ASCEND project says:

"Very low ambient temperatures in space will dramatically reduce the need for cooling equipment that consumes enormous amounts of energy. A significant part of a data center’s energy use is for cooling equipment, accounting for more than 50% in some facilities. Temperatures can be as low as -292°F (-180°C) when an orbiting object is in the Earth’s shadow."

 

Hesham

 

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 10:44 PM Daniel Schien <Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk <mailto:Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk> > wrote:

I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of the time. So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to go up with them. 

 

I'd like to also know what the launch cost is. 

 

Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a 100kg satellite payload:

 

"TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (including Ariane 6 launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory and launched with a re-usable rocket."

 

Depending on the type of server that should go up there, this is a fair amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight.

 

The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong:

 

"Data centers are big energy consumers – between 2% and 3% of all global consumption – a rate that is doubling every year."

 

The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of 30,000) in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in total (so let's than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling every year. That's just completely wrong.

 

 




Daniel Schien


Senior Lecturer in Computer Science

Department of Computer Science | University of Bristol

		
Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022


	
bris.ac.uk/software-engineering
Watch:  <https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI> https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI


	
Merchant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB


	

Book a meeting:  <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/bookings/> https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/booki

 

  _____  

From: E-impact <e-impact-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:e-impact-bounces@ietf.org> > on behalf of Vint Cerf <vint=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org <mailto:40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> >
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM
To: tom@evslin.com <mailto:tom@evslin.com>  <tom@evslin.com <mailto:tom@evslin.com> >
Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca <mailto:mcr@sandelman.ca> >; starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >; e-impact@ietf.org <mailto:e-impact@ietf.org>  <e-impact@ietf.org <mailto:e-impact@ietf.org> >
Subject: Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space) 

 

O&M will be a bear 

v

 

 

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13 PM Tom Evslin via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> > wrote:

I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual, things have not happened as quickly as I predicted https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html

-----Original Message-----
From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> > On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via Starlink
Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> >; e-impact@ietf.org <mailto:e-impact@ietf.org> 
Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)


I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
(I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first objective"!

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data

Cannes, November 14, 2022 – Thales Alenia Space, the joint company between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Commission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emission and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of Europe’s vast Horizon Europe research program.

Digital technology’s expanding environmental footprint is becoming a major
challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.

The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD demonstrator.

This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe’s Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership in space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operations of large infrastructures in orbit.

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> 
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

_______________________________________________
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https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink




 

-- 

Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:

Vint Cerf

Google, LLC

1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor

Reston, VA 20190

+1 (571) 213 1346

 

 

until further notice

 

 

 

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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact


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Re: [Starlink] [E-impact] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[Hesham ElBakoury]

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There is a white paper on DC in space:
https://go.avalanchetechnology.com/datacenters-in-space-whitepaper

Hesham

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 2:32 AM Chris Adams <chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org>
wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> Is there a link to the underlying assumptions in for this "data centres in
> space” story or the report?
>
> The press release mentioned *solar powerplants generating several hundred
> megawatts*. That would require a *massive* amount of solar!
>
> For context, this list here shows the largest solar plants in the US, as
> of June 2021:
>
> https://list.solar/plants/largest-plants/solar-plants-usa/
>
> Even the smallest one, kicking out 200 Megawatts has a surface areas of
> 5.1 square kilometers, and it only goes upward from there.
>
> For this to be plausible, you’d need panels to be orders of magnitude more
> efficient than they are on land when in space, even before you think about
> how heavy it would be get multiple square kilometres of solar panel into
> orbit.
>
> C
>
>
>
> Chris Adams
>
> Executive Director
>
> w: thegreenwebfoundation.org
> e: chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org
> t: @mrchrisadams
>
> German Office
> Naunynstrasse 40
> 10999 Berlin
> Germany
>
> See our contact page for more details
> https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/
>
> Book a short call with me to discuss something.
> https://cal.com/mrchrisadams
> Chris Adams
>
> Executive Director
>
> w: thegreenwebfoundation.org
> e: chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org
> t: @mrchrisadams
>
> German Office
> Naunynstrasse 40
> 10999 Berlin
> Germany
>
> See our contact page for more details
> https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/
>
> Book a short call with me to discuss something.
> https://cal.com/mrchrisadams
>
>
> On 20. Apr 2023, at 07:43, Daniel Schien <Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>
> I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of the time.
> So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to go up with them.
>
> I'd like to also know what the launch cost is.
>
> Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a 100kg satellite payload:
>
> "TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (including Ariane 6
> launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory and launched with a
> re-usable rocket."
>
> Depending on the type of server that should go up there, this is a fair
> amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight.
>
> The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong:
>
> "Data centers are big energy consumers – between 2% and 3% of all global
> consumption – a rate that is doubling every year."
>
> The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of 30,000)
> in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in total (so let's
> than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling every year. That's just
> completely wrong.
>
>
> Daniel Schien
> Senior Lecturer in Computer Science
> Department of Computer Science | University of Bristol
> *Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022*
>
> bris.ac.uk/software-engineering
> Watch: https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI
>
> Merchant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB
> *Book a meeting*:
> https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/booki
> <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/bookings/>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* E-impact <e-impact-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Vint Cerf <vint=
> 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM
> *To:* tom@evslin.com <tom@evslin.com>
> *Cc:* Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>; starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org <e-impact@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber
> IXPs in space)
>
> O&M will be a bear
> v
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13 PM Tom Evslin via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the
> exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual,
> things have not happened as quickly as I predicted
> https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of
> Michael Richardson via Starlink
> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
> To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org
> Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)
>
>
> I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
> (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first
> objective"!
>
>
> https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data
>
> Cannes, November 14, 2022 – Thales Alenia Space, the joint company between
> Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Commission
> to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emission and
> Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of
> Europe’s vast Horizon Europe research program.
>
> Digital technology’s expanding environmental footprint is becoming a major
> challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers
> in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in
> turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.
>
> The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon
> emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures
> will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based
> data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon
> neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to
> develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and
> operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance
> technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD
> demonstrator.
>
> This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data
> centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground
> counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe’s
> Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly,
> reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership in
> space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operations
> of large infrastructures in orbit.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
>
>
> --
> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> Vint Cerf
> Google, LLC
> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
> +1 (571) 213 1346
>
>
> until further notice
>
>
>
> --
> E-impact mailing list
> E-impact@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact
>
>
> --
> E-impact mailing list
> E-impact@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact
>

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Re: [Starlink] [E-impact] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[Hesham ElBakoury]

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Sorry for the typo. The link to the white paper is
https://go.avalanche-technology.com/datacenters-in-space-whitepaper

Hesham

On Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:50 AM Hesham ElBakoury <helbakoury@gmail.com> wrote:

> There is a white paper on DC in space:
> https://go.avalanchetechnology.com/datacenters-in-space-whitepaper
>
> Hesham
>
> On Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 2:32 AM Chris Adams <chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> Is there a link to the underlying assumptions in for this "data centres
>> in space” story or the report?
>>
>> The press release mentioned *solar powerplants generating several
>> hundred megawatts*. That would require a *massive* amount of solar!
>>
>> For context, this list here shows the largest solar plants in the US, as
>> of June 2021:
>>
>> https://list.solar/plants/largest-plants/solar-plants-usa/
>>
>> Even the smallest one, kicking out 200 Megawatts has a surface areas of
>> 5.1 square kilometers, and it only goes upward from there.
>>
>> For this to be plausible, you’d need panels to be orders of magnitude
>> more efficient than they are on land when in space, even before you think
>> about how heavy it would be get multiple square kilometres of solar panel
>> into orbit.
>>
>> C
>>
>>
>>
>> Chris Adams
>>
>> Executive Director
>>
>> w: thegreenwebfoundation.org
>> e: chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org
>> t: @mrchrisadams
>>
>> German Office
>> Naunynstrasse 40
>> 10999 Berlin
>> Germany
>>
>> See our contact page for more details
>> https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/
>>
>> Book a short call with me to discuss something.
>> https://cal.com/mrchrisadams
>> Chris Adams
>>
>> Executive Director
>>
>> w: thegreenwebfoundation.org
>> e: chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org
>> t: @mrchrisadams
>>
>> German Office
>> Naunynstrasse 40
>> 10999 Berlin
>> Germany
>>
>> See our contact page for more details
>> https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/
>>
>> Book a short call with me to discuss something.
>> https://cal.com/mrchrisadams
>>
>>
>> On 20. Apr 2023, at 07:43, Daniel Schien <Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of the
>> time. So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to go up with
>> them.
>>
>> I'd like to also know what the launch cost is.
>>
>> Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a 100kg satellite payload:
>>
>> "TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (including Ariane 6
>> launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory and launched with a
>> re-usable rocket."
>>
>> Depending on the type of server that should go up there, this is a fair
>> amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight.
>>
>> The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong:
>>
>> "Data centers are big energy consumers – between 2% and 3% of all global
>> consumption – a rate that is doubling every year."
>>
>> The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of 30,000)
>> in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in total (so let's
>> than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling every year. That's just
>> completely wrong.
>>
>>
>> Daniel Schien
>> Senior Lecturer in Computer Science
>> Department of Computer Science | University of Bristol
>> *Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022*
>>
>> bris.ac.uk/software-engineering
>> Watch: https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI
>>
>> Merchant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB
>> *Book a meeting*:
>> https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/booki
>> <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/bookings/>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* E-impact <e-impact-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Vint Cerf
>> <vint=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM
>> *To:* tom@evslin.com <tom@evslin.com>
>> *Cc:* Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>; starlink <
>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org <e-impact@ietf.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber
>> IXPs in space)
>>
>> O&M will be a bear
>> v
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13 PM Tom Evslin via Starlink <
>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the
>> exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual,
>> things have not happened as quickly as I predicted
>> https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of
>> Michael Richardson via Starlink
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
>> To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org
>> Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)
>>
>>
>> I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
>> (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first
>> objective"!
>>
>>
>> https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data
>>
>> Cannes, November 14, 2022 – Thales Alenia Space, the joint company
>> between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European
>> Commission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero
>> emission and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit,
>> as part of Europe’s vast Horizon Europe research program.
>>
>> Digital technology’s expanding environmental footprint is becoming a major
>> challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers
>> in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in
>> turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.
>>
>> The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon
>> emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures
>> will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based
>> data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon
>> neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to
>> develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and
>> operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance
>> technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD
>> demonstrator.
>>
>> This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data
>> centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground
>> counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe’s
>> Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly,
>> reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership in
>> space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operations
>> of large infrastructures in orbit.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
>> Vint Cerf
>> Google, LLC
>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
>> Reston, VA 20190
>> +1 (571) 213 1346
>>
>>
>> until further notice
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> E-impact mailing list
>> E-impact@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact
>>
>>
>> --
>> E-impact mailing list
>> E-impact@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact
>>
>

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Re: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[Michael Richardson]

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Ulrich Speidel <u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz> wrote:
    > Where do I even start? The lack of substantial bandwidth between space
    > and ground? The extra latency between ground and space compared to
    > terrestrial cloud, especially as terrestrial cloud edge can move much
    > closer to customers when space can't? The fact that every LEO satellite
    > is both a few 100 km from every customer and out of the customer's
    > range depending on when you look? That low temperatures in space don't
    > mean superconductive chips that produce zero heat, and that that heat
    > is difficult to get rid of in space? That generating power in space is
    > orders of magnitude more expensive than on the ground?

Oh, yeah, you are totally right on all of these points.
* Not all DC processing is user-facing though!
* Some are just pure compute loads.
* Some of the customers for these DCs might be in space in the future.

    > Just because Starlink can provide a service somewhere between DSL and
    > low to medium grade fibre to a few million around the globe it's not
    > "done". Even with 10x the number of satellites and a couple of times
    > the current capacity per satellite, Starlink isn't going to supply more
    > than a couple of 100 million at best, and that's not even accounting
    > for growth in demand from IOT...

Agreed.

I think that the useful/interesting result of this effort will be a
peer-reviewed model with some parameters that can be plugged into.
At 2025 prices, space-DC might not be useful.
Perhaps at 2035 prices, the balance might change.




--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 IøT consulting )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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Re: [Starlink] [E-impact] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[Michael Richardson]

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Daniel Schien <Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk> wrote:
    > I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of the
    > time. So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to go up
    > with them.

Why would we do that?  Make the orbits polar/sun-synchronous.

While GEO is pretty busy, I wonder if there are other interesting orbits.
Obviously, Lagrange points are one set, but are there half-GEO or 2xGEO
orbits that are somehow useful?

One point I got from Geoff Houston's talk on PING which I didn't understand
clearly before was that LEO wasn't just close to use, but that it was much
better protected from radiation.

    > "Data centers are big energy consumers – between 2% and 3% of all
    > global consumption – a rate that is doubling every year."

Back in 2000 the coal industry did a "study" that explained how coal was
critical to Internet growth.  Their modelling assumed every home router used
the same power as a Cisco 7000 series 14U router.

    > The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of
    > 30,000) in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in total
    > (so let's than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling every
    > year. That's just completely wrong.

+1
A related number is density: what's the power required/gigaflop?
And when will countries start rating themselves by gigaflops rather than tons
of steel or barrels of oil?

{You down the street from Bistol Aerospace?}

--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 IøT consulting )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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Re: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[Michael Richardson]

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Mike Puchol via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
    > but is sometimes  followed by a “wait… wat…” look. Other than the
    > inherent danger to humans, UV penetrates clouds nicely.

"Hey Kids, if you are gonna watch Youtube, remember to wear your UV sunscreen!"


--
Michael Richardson <mcr+IETF@sandelman.ca>   . o O ( IPv6 IøT consulting )
           Sandelman Software Works Inc, Ottawa and Worldwide





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Re: [Starlink] [E-impact] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[Rodney W. Grimes]

> The article about the ASCEND project says:
> "Very low ambient temperatures in space will dramatically reduce the need
> for cooling equipment that consumes enormous amounts of energy. A
> significant part of a data center?s energy use is for cooling equipment,
> accounting for more than 50% in some facilities. Temperatures can be as low
> as -292?F (-180?C) when an orbiting object is in the Earth?s shadow."

They seem to have skipped over the con's of trying to cool equipment
in space, there is no "mass" to cool into.  There is no "air" to
cool with.  You have to use conduction to get the heat from your
chips to the outer shell of the spacecraft, then you have to battle
with tring to radiate that heat into a VACUUM!  People think they
have heat limiting issues today with ground based electronis, just
wait tell they try to solve this in a spacecraft!!!

Someone should calculate the radiated surface size needed to remove
the heat generated by a 150W CPU into "space".  It might enlighten
some of these folks that think its all about the temperature of space,
its not, its about the thermal mass of space being near 0.

IMHO DC in space are going to have to find a solution to that MIPS
per W problem first!

> 
> Hesham
> 
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 10:44 PM Daniel Schien <Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk>
> wrote:
> 
> > I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of the time.
> > So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to go up with them.
> >
> > I'd like to also know what the launch cost is.
> >
> > Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a 100kg satellite payload:
> >
> > "TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (including Ariane 6
> > launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory and launched with a
> > re-usable rocket."
> >
> > Depending on the type of server that should go up there, this is a fair
> > amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight.
> >
> > The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong:
> >
> > "Data centers are big energy consumers ? between 2% and 3% of all global
> > consumption ? a rate that is doubling every year."
> >
> > The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of 30,000)
> > in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in total (so let's
> > than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling every year. That's just
> > completely wrong.
> >
> >
> > Daniel Schien
> >
> > Senior Lecturer in Computer Science
> >
> > Department of Computer Science | University of Bristol
> >
> > *Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022*
> >
> > bris.ac.uk/software-engineering
> > Watch: https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI
> >
> > Merchant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB
> > *Book a meeting*:
> > https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/booki
> > <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/bookings/>
> > ------------------------------
> > *From:* E-impact <e-impact-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Vint Cerf <vint=
> > 40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
> > *Sent:* Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM
> > *To:* tom@evslin.com <tom@evslin.com>
> > *Cc:* Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>; starlink <
> > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org <e-impact@ietf.org>
> > *Subject:* Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber
> > IXPs in space)
> >
> > O&M will be a bear
> > v
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13?PM Tom Evslin via Starlink <
> > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> > I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the
> > exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual,
> > things have not happened as quickly as I predicted
> > https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of
> > Michael Richardson via Starlink
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
> > To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org
> > Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)
> >
> >
> > I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
> > (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first
> > objective"!
> >
> >
> > https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data
> >
> > Cannes, November 14, 2022 ? Thales Alenia Space, the joint company between
> > Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Commission
> > to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emission and
> > Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of
> > Europe?s vast Horizon Europe research program.
> >
> > Digital technology?s expanding environmental footprint is becoming a major
> > challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers
> > in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in
> > turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.
> >
> > The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon
> > emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures
> > will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based
> > data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon
> > neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to
> > develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and
> > operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance
> > technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD
> > demonstrator.
> >
> > This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data
> > centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground
> > counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe?s
> > Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly,
> > reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership in
> > space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operations
> > of large infrastructures in orbit.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
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> >
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> >
> >
> >
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> > Google, LLC
> > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
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Re: [Starlink] [E-impact] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[Ulrich Speidel]

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Indeed. There's another point that's been missed in the "superconductor" 
suggestion: Why do we get the heat in the first place?

Superconductors are great when it comes to reducing resistive losses in 
long and / or high current conductors (power distribution, MRI magnets, 
...). But this isn't why computer chips get hot. Let me take you back to 
your Physics 101 when you learned that Power P was the product of 
current I and voltage V. A logic chip like a CPU is nothing but an 
assortment of gazillions of little switches. When a switch is open, it 
may have voltage across it but no current flows: no power gets 
dissipated. If it's closed, current may flow but there won't be any 
voltage across it. Also not a source of power loss.

The power loss (heat generation) happens when the little switches are 
switching, i.e., when they are between open and closed and when there is 
both a bit of voltage and a bit of current present. Naively you might 
say that a switch is either on or off, and so that shouldn't occur, but 
in both theory and practice, an instantaneous loss-free switching 
process requires a signal of infinite bandwidth when subjected to 
Fourier analysis. Fourier analysis allows us to model any signal as a 
combination of sinusoidal signals of different frequency, amplitude and 
phase, and it's in particular the high-and-in-the-direction-of-infinity 
frequency components of that combination that are needed for the 
"ïnstantaneous"switching. Unfortunately, in any real circuit of larger 
than zero size, reactive elements (capacitive and inductive components 
or parasitic properties of that nature) attenuate these. So the only 
real switching we can actually do in real life is switching that 
dissipates power when it happens - no matter whether the chip is built 
using superconductors or not.

In a modern CPU, a significant percentage of gates are this this "gray" 
in-between state between 0 and 1 for a significant part of the time, 
which is why you need elaborate cooling fans and water coolers etc., and 
it's also why clock frequencies haven't increased substantially in 
recent years.

On 21/04/2023 12:06 am, Dave Collier-Brown via Starlink wrote:
>
> Another point they missed: on earth, we can use conductive cooling and 
> transfer the heat from the machines to a flow of air.  In space, we 
> can only use radiative cooling, and we need to be out of the sun to 
> have enough temperature difference.
>
> --dave
>
> On 4/20/23 07:10, Hesham ElBakoury via Starlink wrote:
>> The article about the ASCEND project says:
>> "Very low ambient temperatures in space will dramatically reduce the 
>> need for cooling equipment that consumes enormous amounts of energy. 
>> A significant part of a data center’s energy use is for cooling 
>> equipment, accounting for more than 50% in some facilities. 
>> Temperatures can be as low as -292°F (-180°C) when an orbiting object 
>> is in the Earth’s shadow."
>>
>> Hesham
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023, 10:44 PM Daniel Schien 
>> <Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>>     I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of
>>     the time. So, the machines will require some pretty big battery
>>     to go up with them.
>>
>>     I'd like to also know what the launch cost is.
>>
>>     Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a 100kg satellite
>>     payload:
>>
>>     "TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (including Ariane
>>     6 launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory and
>>     launched with a re-usable rocket."
>>
>>     Depending on the type of server that should go up there, this is
>>     a fair amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight.
>>
>>     The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong:
>>
>>     "Data centers are big energy consumers – between 2% and 3% of all
>>     global consumption – a rate that is doubling every year."
>>
>>     The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of
>>     30,000) in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in
>>     total (so let's than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling
>>     every year. That's just completely wrong.
>>
>>
>>           DanielSchien
>>
>>     Senior Lecturer in Computer Science
>>
>>     Department of Computer Science | University of Bristol
>>
>>     	
>>     	
>>     	
>>
>>     *Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022*
>>
>>
>>     	http://bris.ac.uk/software-engineering
>>     Watch: https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI
>>     <https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI>
>>
>>
>>     	Merchant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB
>>
>>     *Book a meeting*:
>>     https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/booki
>>     <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/bookings/>
>>
>>
>>
>>     ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>     *From:* E-impact <e-impact-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Vint
>>     Cerf <vint=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
>>     *Sent:* Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM
>>     *To:* tom@evslin.com <tom@evslin.com>
>>     *Cc:* Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>; starlink
>>     <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org
>>     <e-impact@ietf.org>
>>     *Subject:* Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was
>>     Re: fiber IXPs in space)
>>     O&M will be a bear
>>     v
>>
>>
>>     On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13 PM Tom Evslin via Starlink
>>     <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>>         I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than
>>         the exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago
>>         although, as usual, things have not happened as quickly as I
>>         predicted
>>         https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html
>>
>>         -----Original Message-----
>>         From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On
>>         Behalf Of Michael Richardson via Starlink
>>         Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
>>         To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org
>>         Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs
>>         in space)
>>
>>
>>         I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
>>         (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the
>>         "first objective"!
>>
>>         https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data
>>
>>         Cannes, November 14, 2022 – Thales Alenia Space, the joint
>>         company between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been
>>         chosen by the European Commission to lead the ASCEND
>>         (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emission and Data
>>         sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as
>>         part of Europe’s vast Horizon Europe research program.
>>
>>         Digital technology’s expanding environmental footprint is
>>         becoming a major
>>         challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that
>>         data centers in Europe and around the world are growing at an
>>         exponential pace, which in turn has a critical energy and
>>         environmental impact.
>>
>>         The first objective of this study will be to assess if the
>>         carbon emissions from the production and launch of these
>>         space infrastructures will be significantly lower than the
>>         emissions generated by ground-based data centers, therefore
>>         contributing to the achievement of global carbon neutrality.
>>         The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to
>>         develop the required launch solution and to ensure the
>>         deployment and operability of these spaceborne data centers
>>         using robotic assistance technologies currently being
>>         developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD demonstrator.
>>
>>         This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent
>>         space-based data centers would limit the energy and
>>         environmental impact of their ground counterparts, thus
>>         allowing major investments within the scope of Europe’s Green
>>         Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more
>>         climate-friendly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could
>>         thus regain its leadership in space transport and space
>>         logistics, as well as the assembly and operations of large
>>         infrastructures in orbit.
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         Starlink mailing list
>>         Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>         https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         Starlink mailing list
>>         Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>         https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>>
>>
>>     -- 
>>     Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
>>     Vint Cerf
>>     Google, LLC
>>     1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
>>     Reston, VA 20190
>>     +1 (571) 213 1346
>>
>>
>>     until further notice
>>
>>
>>
>>     -- 
>>     E-impact mailing list
>>     E-impact@ietf.org
>>     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> -- 
> David Collier-Brown,         | Always do right. This will gratify
> System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
> dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com  |              -- Mark Twain
>
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-- 
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)

The University of Auckland
u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz  
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
****************************************************************



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Re: [Starlink] [E-impact] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[Eugene Y Chang]

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Wow … 5.1 square kilometer of solar panels.
It is going to be really good at catching micrometeorites and small space debris.
A few small nicks won’t matter. Should we care?

The James Webb already caught a few in it’s mirror. So far it wasn’t serious.

Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Communications Society & Signal Processing Society,
    Hawaii Chapter Chair
IEEE Hawaii Section, Industry Engagement Coordinator
IEEE Senior Life Member
eugene.chang@ieee.org
m 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)



> On Apr 19, 2023, at 11:31 PM, Chris Adams via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> Is there a link to the underlying assumptions in for this "data centres in space” story or the report?
> 
> The press release mentioned solar powerplants generating several hundred megawatts. That would require a massive amount of solar!
> 
> For context, this list here shows the largest solar plants in the US, as of June 2021:
> 
> https://list.solar/plants/largest-plants/solar-plants-usa/ <https://list.solar/plants/largest-plants/solar-plants-usa/>
> 
> Even the smallest one, kicking out 200 Megawatts has a surface areas of 5.1 square kilometers, and it only goes upward from there.
> 
> For this to be plausible, you’d need panels to be orders of magnitude more efficient than they are on land when in space, even before you think about how heavy it would be get multiple square kilometres of solar panel into orbit.
> 
> C
> 
> 
> 
> Chris Adams
> 
> Executive Director
> 
> w: thegreenwebfoundation.org
> e: chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org
> t: @mrchrisadams
> 
> German Office
> Naunynstrasse 40
> 10999 Berlin
> Germany
> 
> See our contact page for more details
> https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/ <https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/>
> 
> Book a short call with me to discuss something.
> https://cal.com/mrchrisadams <https://cal.com/mrchrisadams>
> Chris Adams
> 
> Executive Director
> 
> w: thegreenwebfoundation.org
> e: chris@thegreenwebfoundation.org
> t: @mrchrisadams
> 
> German Office
> Naunynstrasse 40
> 10999 Berlin
> Germany
> 
> See our contact page for more details
> https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/ <https://www.thegreenwebfoundation.org/contact/>
> 
> Book a short call with me to discuss something.
> https://cal.com/mrchrisadams <https://cal.com/mrchrisadams>
> 
> 
>> On 20. Apr 2023, at 07:43, Daniel Schien <Daniel.Schien@bristol.ac.uk> wrote:
>> 
>> I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of the time. So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to go up with them.
>> 
>> I'd like to also know what the launch cost is.
>> 
>> Tom Segert estimates in his LinkedIn post, for a 100kg satellite payload:
>> 
>> "TL:DR ~57 ton CO2e for a typical ESA satellite (including Ariane 6 launch), <15t CO2e for a satellite built in a factory and launched with a re-usable rocket."
>> 
>> Depending on the type of server that should go up there, this is a fair amount of carbon to offset from brighter sunlight.
>> 
>> The article also gets the carbon footprint wrong:
>> 
>> "Data centers are big energy consumers – between 2% and 3% of all global consumption – a rate that is doubling every year."
>> 
>> The latest was IEA estimating it to be around 220-320 TWh (out of 30,000) in 2021 data and growing between 10-60% over 6 years in total (so let's than 10 CAGR). But it's certainly not doubling every year. That's just completely wrong.
>> 
>> 
>> Daniel Schien
>> Senior Lecturer in Computer Science
>> Department of Computer Science | University of Bristol
>> Submit software engineering project ideas for 2022
>> 
>> bris.ac.uk/software-engineering <>
>> Watch: https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI <https://youtu.be/lU-ZsBDFWDI>
>> 
>> Merchant Venturers Building , Woodland Rd Bristol, BS8 1UB
>> Book a meeting: https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/booki <https://outlook.office365.com/owa/calendar/OfficeHours@bristol.ac.uk/bookings/>
>> From: E-impact <e-impact-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of Vint Cerf <vint=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2023 2:16:38 AM
>> To: tom@evslin.com <tom@evslin.com>
>> Cc: Michael Richardson <mcr@sandelman.ca>; starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>; e-impact@ietf.org <e-impact@ietf.org>
>> Subject: Re: [E-impact] [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)
>> 
>> O&M will be a bear
>> v
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 9:13 PM Tom Evslin via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>> wrote:
>> I think space-based data centers will be the rule rather than the exception. Wrote about that a couple of years ago although, as usual, things have not happened as quickly as I predicted https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html <https://blog.tomevslin.com/2021/07/computing-clouds-in-orbit-a-possible-roadmap.html>
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net>> On Behalf Of Michael Richardson via Starlink
>> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 7:35 PM
>> To: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>>; e-impact@ietf.org <mailto:e-impact@ietf.org>
>> Subject: [Starlink] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)
>> 
>> 
>> I saw this reported in BIS-Spaceflight.
>> (I'm usually a few months behind in reading it) I like the "first objective"!
>> 
>> https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data <https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwide/space/press-release/ascend-thales-alenia-space-lead-european-feasibility-study-data>
>> 
>> Cannes, November 14, 2022 – Thales Alenia Space, the joint company between Thales (67%) and Leonardo (33%), has been chosen by the European Commission to lead the ASCEND (Advanced Space Cloud for European Net zero emission and Data sovereignty) feasibility study for data centers in orbit, as part of Europe’s vast Horizon Europe research program.
>> 
>> Digital technology’s expanding environmental footprint is becoming a major
>> challenge: the burgeoning need for digitalization means that data centers in Europe and around the world are growing at an exponential pace, which in turn has a critical energy and environmental impact.
>> 
>> The first objective of this study will be to assess if the carbon emissions from the production and launch of these space infrastructures will be significantly lower than the emissions generated by ground-based data centers, therefore contributing to the achievement of global carbon neutrality. The second objective will be to prove that it is possible to develop the required launch solution and to ensure the deployment and operability of these spaceborne data centers using robotic assistance technologies currently being developed in Europe, such as the EROSS IOD demonstrator.
>> 
>> This project is expected to demonstrate to which extent space-based data centers would limit the energy and environmental impact of their ground counterparts, thus allowing major investments within the scope of Europe’s Green Deal, possibly justifying the development of a more climate-friendly, reusable heavy launch vehicle. Europe could thus regain its leadership in space transport and space logistics, as well as the assembly and operations of large infrastructures in orbit.
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink>
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net <mailto:Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink <https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink>
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
>> Vint Cerf
>> Google, LLC
>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
>> Reston, VA 20190
>> +1 (571) 213 1346
>> 
>> 
>> until further notice
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> E-impact mailing list
>> E-impact@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/e-impact
> 
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Re: [Starlink] [E-impact] DataCenters in Space (was Re: fiber IXPs in space)

[David Lang]

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On Thu, 20 Apr 2023, Daniel Schien via Starlink wrote:

> I assume any object in orbit will be hidden from the sun some of the time. So, the machines will require some pretty big battery to go up with them.

less than you would think, as you get further away from the earth, the shadow of 
the earth is smaller (think about a lunar eclipse, the shadow of the earth is 
barely the size of the moon, and the eclipse doesn't last very long)

> I'd like to also know what the launch cost is.

Shuttle was ~50k/Kg
pre-spacex expendable rockets were ~$10k/kg
Falcon 9 has driven costs down into the ballpark of $1k/Kg (with indications 
that SpaceX internal costs may be significantly lower, but they price their 
launches at what the market will bear, under their competitors pricing)
Starship could get this down to under $10/Kg

David Lang

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