From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x52c.google.com (mail-ed1-x52c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7003D3B2A4 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2023 20:36:28 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52c.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-52e5900cf77so6300293a12.2 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2023 17:36:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1695083787; x=1695688587; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=WrpZoAehgv6WsorSRhBM37RLgYMH3WEI82lnsT8lU4k=; b=cVnu90yniphF7gZc68pvQ0nECiLeEd5dO6vsQOS/dnZdyhE5wf4cAi5zxVkKIhIo08 CMh42loEfskUzfFHHQYkrnwWdN/Xda8VbTgKEe5B+UIv6vann8WsKaSKZ0+d48cKDnSC FJI636IZxAzAOHmF0uRE0IOOnxBkbBaonqTLeTYuJJ5ATCDiZc8qpfdDKVB8fZK+759p 06jUcK90TPK1TToJ7fQXRNi4CmL04C6bMmldDwK+f1M2riYibVxtHhYhcvk+Clyu3JSM k2Q3ohsjMJBYtwJ49EYz42XBdHvOWYaVGRz+hSWQ6bv7v4kcEbfEZM+x4onCb7QT6sxj jogw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1695083787; x=1695688587; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=WrpZoAehgv6WsorSRhBM37RLgYMH3WEI82lnsT8lU4k=; b=r9TQ01l95W+5uBmAGIccgMPFrOjp0yiVRpD8kUM2ElU2WX/uF7P5eWLgKl8fnZVXlf TI02njolKZY9r7+LUbtpawOnkmZNEBeneAksJG9JiTqj4DIHyCdGwv0FvL/VTHqZpqUp y2VHFtDGIhp0fMPOCCiuYH8u7DuezRrdaWANr2IhM4nwX2NxVEGTsYaavlUZol8TwKOK F0tvzfiRpSEL5NdBTsMILbOv5O/HGFJ3wPvb8Bx7qUrttcQDoqMIoFBEz9Cc4W4oEMLx GXfo/Nwv6LfMWWTH/584eMFRvScHyNU8dZhhC9whLin2MKo/84nOsvinVdxanq0ue0xe gxlg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwZHR9VoWnRFA3OASEVY7DD+3DczRVP9a6A6a8Vx4LXn7hpnTf8 sBgVQXgqBaXXbSptIeSiczZ8f+nZhuQQzV2dmuI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFjJbIo57G9I58nyEoTWqaJBcWCCvQBoGHGv4SzC4W63JdrLzmCSw4u37pd0RMkMsPmsTyTtQV2UT1JSYtdGRU= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:dccf:0:b0:52a:1d9c:83ff with SMTP id w15-20020aa7dccf000000b0052a1d9c83ffmr9980653edu.1.1695083787155; Mon, 18 Sep 2023 17:36:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2d05e701-7556-8ae4-122c-e2f2d23feff2@gmail.com> <4o116qp9-6108-91r8-pn91-o37o6629npqo@ynat.uz> <2012b68c-2e15-4b5c-b36b-3b1d7eff12b4@gmail.com> <0q3n1sp5-09r5-5pqn-3p9p-opq883305s1s@ynat.uz> <340fd78d-39eb-e9af-c15a-7ca87b173e4e@auckland.ac.nz> <40da3b55-38ad-4e02-8c58-afea2bd02279@gmail.com> <2sp89904-o460-976s-4rsq-55nn6ps84464@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: From: Hesham ElBakoury Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2023 17:36:12 -0700 Message-ID: To: David Lang Cc: Alexandre Petrescu , Dave Taht via Starlink , sat-int@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ff7ac50605ab72f0" Subject: Re: [Starlink] Main hurdles against the Integration of Satellites and Terrestial Networks X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Sep 2023 00:36:28 -0000 --000000000000ff7ac50605ab72f0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My understanding is that for integrated NTN and Terrestrial network we may need new or enhanced routing protocols. There are many publications in this area. I suggest that you discuss your view in int-sat email list (copied) Thanks Hesham On Mon, Sep 18, 2023, 5:31 PM David Lang wrote: > On Mon, 18 Sep 2023, Hesham ElBakoury wrote: > > > Given the discussions in this email thread, what IETF should standardiz= e > in > > priority order for the integrated NTN terrestrial networks? > > I don't see why you need to do any particular standardization to integrat= e > things like starlink into terrestrial networks. > > Just like IETF didn't need to standardize ethernet/token > ring/arcnet/modems to > make them compatible with each other. They all talk IP, and a computer > with a > link to each of them can serve as a gateway (and this included proprietar= y > modems that were not compatible with anything else, the network didn't > care) > > Starlink is just another IP path, all the tools that you use with any > other ISP > work on that path (or are restricted like many other consumer ISPs with > dynamic > addressing, no inbound connections, no BGP peering, etc. No reason that > the > those couldn't work, SpaceX just opts not to support them on consumer > dishes) > > I'll turn the question back to you, what is the problem that you think is > there > that needs to be solved? > > David Lang > > > Thanks, > > Hesham > > > > On Sun, Sep 17, 2023, 12:59 PM David Lang via Starlink < > > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > >> it's very clear that there is a computer in the dishy that you are > talking > >> to. > >> You get the network connection while the dishy is not connected to the > >> satellites (there's even a status page and controls, stowing and > unstowing > >> for > >> example) > >> > >> I think we've seen that the dishy is running linux (I know the routers > run > >> an > >> old openwrt), but I don't remember the details of the dishy software. > >> > >> David Lang > >> > >> On Sun, 17 Sep 2023, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink wrote: > >> > >>> Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2023 19:21:50 +0200 > >>> From: Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink > >>> Reply-To: Alexandre Petrescu > >>> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Main hurdles against the Integration of > >> Satellites and > >>> Terrestial Networks > >>> > >>> > >>> Le 16/09/2023 =C3=A0 01:32, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a =C3=A9crit = : > >>>> On 16/09/2023 5:52 am, David Lang wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> In addition to that Ulrich says, the dishy is a full computer, it's > >>>>> output is ethernet/IP and with some adapters or cable changes, you > >>>>> can plug it directly into a router. > >>>> > >>>> We've done that with the Yaosheng PoE Dishy adapter - actually plugg= ed > >>>> a DHCP client straight in - and it "works" but with a noticeably > >>>> higher rate of disconnects. > >>> > >>> It is good to know one can plug a DHCP client into the Ethernet of th= e > >>> DISHY and receive DHCP replies. > >>> > >>> But that would be only a lead into what kind of DHCPv4 is supported, = or > >> not. > >>> > >>> I would ask to know whether the DHCP server runs on the DISHY, or > >>> whether it is on the ground network of starlink, i.e. the reply to DH= CP > >>> request comes after 50ms, or after 500microseconds (timestamp > difference > >>> can be seen in the wireshark run on that Ethernet). > >>> > >>> This (DHCP server daemon on dishy or on ground segment) has an impact > of > >>> how IPv6 can be, or is, made to work. > >>> > >>> This kind of behaviour of DHCP - basically asking who allocates an > >>> address - has seen a continous evolution in 3GPP cellular networks > since > >>> they appeared. Nowadays the DHCP behaviour is very complex in a 3GPP > >>> network; even in a typical smartphone there are intricacies about whe= re > >>> and how the DHCP client and server works. With it comes the problem o= f > >>> /64 in cellular networks (which some dont call a problem, but I do). > >>> > >>> So, it would be interesting to see whether starlink has the same /64 > >>> problem as 3GPP has, or is free of it (simply put: can I connect > several > >>> Ethernet subnets in my home to starlink, in native IPv6 that is, or > >> not?). > >>> > >>> Alex > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> Starlink mailing list > >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > >>> _______________________________________________ > >> Starlink mailing list > >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > >> > > --000000000000ff7ac50605ab72f0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
My understanding is that for integrated NTN and Terrestri= al network we may need new or enhanced routing protocols. There are many pu= blications in this area.

I sug= gest that you discuss your view in int-sat email list (copied)

Thanks
Hesham=

On Mon, Sep 18, 2023, 5:31 PM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
On Mon, 18 Sep 2023, Hesham ElBakoury wrote:

> Given the discussions in this email thread, what IETF should standardi= ze in
> priority order=C2=A0 for the integrated NTN terrestrial networks?

I don't see why you need to do any particular standardization to integr= ate
things like starlink into terrestrial networks.

Just like IETF didn't need to standardize ethernet/token ring/arcnet/mo= dems to
make them compatible with each other. They all talk IP, and a computer with= a
link to each of them can serve as a gateway (and this included proprietary =
modems that were not compatible with anything else, the network didn't = care)

Starlink is just another IP path, all the tools that you use with any other= ISP
work on that path (or are restricted like many other consumer ISPs with dyn= amic
addressing, no inbound connections, no BGP peering, etc. No reason that the=
those couldn't work, SpaceX just opts not to support them on consumer d= ishes)

I'll turn the question back to you, what is the problem that you think = is there
that needs to be solved?

David Lang

> Thanks,
> Hesham
>
> On Sun, Sep 17, 2023, 12:59 PM David Lang via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> it's very clear that there is a computer in the dishy that you= are talking
>> to.
>> You get the network connection while the dishy is not connected to= the
>> satellites (there's even a status page and controls, stowing a= nd unstowing
>> for
>> example)
>>
>> I think we've seen that the dishy is running linux (I know the= routers run
>> an
>> old openwrt), but I don't remember the details of the dishy so= ftware.
>>
>> David Lang
>>
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0On Sun, 17 Sep 2023, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink w= rote:
>>
>>> Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2023 19:21:50 +0200
>>> From: Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink <starlink= @lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>> Reply-To: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@= gmail.com>
>>> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Main hurdles against the Integration o= f
>> Satellites and
>>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Terrestial Networks
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 16/09/2023 =C3=A0 01:32, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a =C3= =A9crit :
>>>> On 16/09/2023 5:52 am, David Lang wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> In addition to that Ulrich says, the dishy is a full c= omputer, it's
>>>>> output is ethernet/IP and with some adapters or cable = changes, you
>>>>> can plug it directly into a router.
>>>>
>>>> We've done that with the Yaosheng PoE Dishy adapter - = actually plugged
>>>> a DHCP client straight in - and it "works" but w= ith a noticeably
>>>> higher rate of disconnects.
>>>
>>> It is good to know one can plug a DHCP client into the Etherne= t of the
>>> DISHY and receive DHCP replies.
>>>
>>> But that would be only a lead into what kind of DHCPv4 is supp= orted, or
>> not.
>>>
>>> I would ask to know whether the DHCP server runs on the DISHY,= or
>>> whether it is on the ground network of starlink, i.e. the repl= y to DHCP
>>> request comes after 50ms, or after 500microseconds (timestamp = difference
>>> can be seen in the wireshark run on that Ethernet).
>>>
>>> This (DHCP server daemon on dishy or on ground segment) has an= impact of
>>> how IPv6=C2=A0 can be, or is, made to work.
>>>
>>> This kind of behaviour of DHCP - basically asking who allocate= s an
>>> address - has seen a continous evolution in 3GPP cellular netw= orks since
>>> they appeared.=C2=A0 Nowadays the DHCP behaviour is very compl= ex in a 3GPP
>>> network; even in a typical smartphone there are intricacies ab= out where
>>> and how the DHCP client and server works. With it comes the pr= oblem of
>>> /64 in cellular networks (which some dont call a problem, but = I do).
>>>
>>> So, it would be interesting to see whether starlink has the sa= me /64
>>> problem as 3GPP has, or is free of it (simply put: can I conne= ct several
>>> Ethernet subnets in my home to starlink, in native IPv6 that i= s, or
>> not?).
>>>
>>> Alex
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Starlink mailing list
>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net= /listinfo/starlink
>>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/lis= tinfo/starlink
>>
>
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