From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x52e.google.com (mail-ed1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 204703B2A4 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2023 19:32:43 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-530a6cbbb47so3943704a12.0 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 2023 16:32:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1695079962; x=1695684762; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=uTWaXZi7x2VrD4PCyqHnuDuZ1NSPKRe3PFyF5d0Jd3k=; b=VXyDK9HQTovHWoQRWHNBKSBbfqcw6md2q9wkNZKCCZiTbX6tGxZqvf0GCNMHM7+zZQ x3NI78XyO87EleV83WMJTB9f6uyU07b0mCsCXS6/eEVi4GzwSCTMsY9u35pzif3fS0t4 w4yMbzUkGrt71TUfPjto0ZfTMYln5jViW99iBKpFkUjAobSSMvldKWi8PV+Vlxn4GuKG I2YxZjbY4PHkOCaJa8waY12MK0Q2Xf61PzmK4MaHdnO2pmG+VKJkqt00CY+HekBe5lfW XIxc9pOOezKfCWXm3/SA1CWfQyyWCYeeeCiACn+s3B/T/Kp5R89Y9bHAb45Qw/jnfb/p PcHg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1695079962; x=1695684762; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=uTWaXZi7x2VrD4PCyqHnuDuZ1NSPKRe3PFyF5d0Jd3k=; b=EOFJ3x7FpSl1mzcyRhXynUPXBd/g5+jlDKGSTswjPF9G7WfAafOK6itqVJ9S5/3K2Q h8IfDLxzIyijoJ/eKdEvykIPOPxA9L4RuUOaDn7XszdV4Md/7t4vr0P0A0FNmvSnfbAv 0v9RMwA97wrRnVA8PQh6jFTWYeE5qHLtVNjzJxsLllP0HYXJdYFV51Gxd1s1iRsfQPL9 a3QIYSCCT8WJD/axS/bGnhqMPfQ6Hc2OfDDbpt0aJWPaA1Fp9VdgE9RElzT05G7Ivl3/ eMvWQbmoz24SEoWBy0K0PhtlRTfe3MR4LlU1h/nxBsGYtQJbfePsq9RiQUNB5Y1816fA NFoQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwPLeFp/HP/xM9ctEDV80cqkec1lxnlcYaXP4JiBhL3IHitjoyF c9iDVKtR3aIxkHNLwcWoUHCoavSK7+anBEbq6M8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEoHjwdr0GTvgHgHrWT0Tto1wo9N1gDTs7bnD8TKjRXdOG0FTXsgsdaIwCLTqX5DiF3atou7dJrDsG1gQJbaIc= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:320b:b0:530:c717:b8f2 with SMTP id g11-20020a056402320b00b00530c717b8f2mr7296320eda.38.1695079961657; Mon, 18 Sep 2023 16:32:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2d05e701-7556-8ae4-122c-e2f2d23feff2@gmail.com> <4o116qp9-6108-91r8-pn91-o37o6629npqo@ynat.uz> <2012b68c-2e15-4b5c-b36b-3b1d7eff12b4@gmail.com> <0q3n1sp5-09r5-5pqn-3p9p-opq883305s1s@ynat.uz> <340fd78d-39eb-e9af-c15a-7ca87b173e4e@auckland.ac.nz> <40da3b55-38ad-4e02-8c58-afea2bd02279@gmail.com> <2sp89904-o460-976s-4rsq-55nn6ps84464@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: <2sp89904-o460-976s-4rsq-55nn6ps84464@ynat.uz> From: Hesham ElBakoury Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2023 16:32:27 -0700 Message-ID: To: David Lang Cc: Alexandre Petrescu , Dave Taht via Starlink Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000fb05fd0605aa8ed9" Subject: Re: [Starlink] Main hurdles against the Integration of Satellites and Terrestial Networks X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2023 23:32:43 -0000 --000000000000fb05fd0605aa8ed9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Given the discussions in this email thread, what IETF should standardize in priority order for the integrated NTN terrestrial networks? Thanks, Hesham On Sun, Sep 17, 2023, 12:59 PM David Lang via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > it's very clear that there is a computer in the dishy that you are talkin= g > to. > You get the network connection while the dishy is not connected to the > satellites (there's even a status page and controls, stowing and unstowin= g > for > example) > > I think we've seen that the dishy is running linux (I know the routers ru= n > an > old openwrt), but I don't remember the details of the dishy software. > > David Lang > > On Sun, 17 Sep 2023, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink wrote: > > > Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2023 19:21:50 +0200 > > From: Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink > > Reply-To: Alexandre Petrescu > > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] Main hurdles against the Integration of > Satellites and > > Terrestial Networks > > > > > > Le 16/09/2023 =C3=A0 01:32, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a =C3=A9crit : > >> On 16/09/2023 5:52 am, David Lang wrote: > >>> > >>> In addition to that Ulrich says, the dishy is a full computer, it's > >>> output is ethernet/IP and with some adapters or cable changes, you > >>> can plug it directly into a router. > >> > >> We've done that with the Yaosheng PoE Dishy adapter - actually plugged > >> a DHCP client straight in - and it "works" but with a noticeably > >> higher rate of disconnects. > > > > It is good to know one can plug a DHCP client into the Ethernet of the > > DISHY and receive DHCP replies. > > > > But that would be only a lead into what kind of DHCPv4 is supported, or > not. > > > > I would ask to know whether the DHCP server runs on the DISHY, or > > whether it is on the ground network of starlink, i.e. the reply to DHCP > > request comes after 50ms, or after 500microseconds (timestamp differenc= e > > can be seen in the wireshark run on that Ethernet). > > > > This (DHCP server daemon on dishy or on ground segment) has an impact o= f > > how IPv6 can be, or is, made to work. > > > > This kind of behaviour of DHCP - basically asking who allocates an > > address - has seen a continous evolution in 3GPP cellular networks sinc= e > > they appeared. Nowadays the DHCP behaviour is very complex in a 3GPP > > network; even in a typical smartphone there are intricacies about where > > and how the DHCP client and server works. With it comes the problem of > > /64 in cellular networks (which some dont call a problem, but I do). > > > > So, it would be interesting to see whether starlink has the same /64 > > problem as 3GPP has, or is free of it (simply put: can I connect severa= l > > Ethernet subnets in my home to starlink, in native IPv6 that is, or > not?). > > > > Alex > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > >_______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --000000000000fb05fd0605aa8ed9 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Given the discussions in this email thread, what IETF sho= uld standardize in priority order=C2=A0 for the integrated NTN terrestrial = networks?

Thanks,
Hesham

On Sun, Sep 17, 2023, 12:59 PM David Lang via Starli= nk <starlink@lists.buf= ferbloat.net> wrote:
it'= s very clear that there is a computer in the dishy that you are talking to.=
You get the network connection while the dishy is not connected to the
satellites (there's even a status page and controls, stowing and unstow= ing for
example)

I think we've seen that the dishy is running linux (I know the routers = run an
old openwrt), but I don't remember the details of the dishy software.
David Lang

=C2=A0 On Sun, 17 Sep 2023, Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink wrote:

> Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2023 19:21:50 +0200
> From: Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink <starlink@lists.b= ufferbloat.net>
> Reply-To: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.co= m>
> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] Main hurdles against the Integration of Satell= ites and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Terrestial Networks
>
>
> Le 16/09/2023 =C3=A0 01:32, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a =C3=A9crit= =C2=A0:
>> On 16/09/2023 5:52 am, David Lang wrote:
>>>
>>> In addition to that Ulrich says, the dishy is a full computer,= it's
>>> output is ethernet/IP and with some adapters or cable changes,= you
>>> can plug it directly into a router.
>>
>> We've done that with the Yaosheng PoE Dishy adapter - actually= plugged
>> a DHCP client straight in - and it "works" but with a no= ticeably
>> higher rate of disconnects.
>
> It is good to know one can plug a DHCP client into the Ethernet of the=
> DISHY and receive DHCP replies.
>
> But that would be only a lead into what kind of DHCPv4 is supported, o= r not.
>
> I would ask to know whether the DHCP server runs on the DISHY, or
> whether it is on the ground network of starlink, i.e. the reply to DHC= P
> request comes after 50ms, or after 500microseconds (timestamp differen= ce
> can be seen in the wireshark run on that Ethernet).
>
> This (DHCP server daemon on dishy or on ground segment) has an impact = of
> how IPv6=C2=A0 can be, or is, made to work.
>
> This kind of behaviour of DHCP - basically asking who allocates an > address - has seen a continous evolution in 3GPP cellular networks sin= ce
> they appeared.=C2=A0 Nowadays the DHCP behaviour is very complex in a = 3GPP
> network; even in a typical smartphone there are intricacies about wher= e
> and how the DHCP client and server works. With it comes the problem of=
> /64 in cellular networks (which some dont call a problem, but I do). >
> So, it would be interesting to see whether starlink has the same /64 <= br> > problem as 3GPP has, or is free of it (simply put: can I connect sever= al
> Ethernet subnets in my home to starlink, in native IPv6 that is, or no= t?).
>
> Alex
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinf= o/starlink
>_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/sta= rlink
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