From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ej1-x636.google.com (mail-ej1-x636.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::636]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B72633B29E for ; Mon, 17 May 2021 17:02:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x636.google.com with SMTP id s22so11011560ejv.12 for ; Mon, 17 May 2021 14:02:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=buraglio.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=cYP02E1WxWyXk+IN5dk9aNo4c3rop2LSueVTxI6SnxI=; b=EzkhnVYBZX9olf2ODsVj4efk5lB/Q7SxhxAox4xy8iqfmkqf1C7Wq/qKL23rvpLyW/ 24YnfkzMKTYnkdSRnv9eiHuXCHJCb4qth4+7/iLGOBMfOwDtwwKxmdn9bynbCMBlDViV QyC3xcw7N0fQNHk3yrSIotG6wmVXjClmiH4G0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=cYP02E1WxWyXk+IN5dk9aNo4c3rop2LSueVTxI6SnxI=; b=PqDDbKlIWG7mOO8iWu7Yu/v0ooivgXrm7iDHuFUbQxxeHQ8BPbQ19qK6RQ0eitnmlN ogriH0R+H4MUsUW7QEkhMnPZroYH7o51yj9g9k32l05CMP19cd0EVTl393q/un9qQ6mA 7ilyzvfmedWKu+suXXheRkMqkBD0q5NpjBfWIuOdE8UVlnkbwzdSOqfa1WDiYYxtxVKu ZknuI+5H1aiC5PgdqvuT5AhG61iICpRLjFpYUoYypqYxtcjNAo0UmEX2FJ3KsPrkxEFI wjorUqfKz3GEBcJ4yKRQKdaO6A3VP8CfxidF3eSDmnnoyhZdHtenDT6UoI96Mqb1drXk kB8g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531cdS7hN1h6RWu8KbEMt9D8LsZRawaPRSuzlxUvIbV3GTmecL+L 1M6ijxeyc4tKJI89rRjqDuUC+sPhVfGI1NAvN4EDR3My/8hobQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwhVmKMdOCoZ4LRwt41W5ZQsmzt0MvjK227HiGh4eod9uKTqBuSrJCHKOpj9KbsEvyYFdGMbuiIXAH1hoHiNpU= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:82c2:: with SMTP id a2mr1914834ejy.84.1621285354654; Mon, 17 May 2021 14:02:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Nick Buraglio Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 16:02:23 -0500 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: David Lang , Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a4e59505c28ce9c6" Subject: Re: [Starlink] dhcpv6-pd details X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 17 May 2021 21:02:35 -0000 --000000000000a4e59505c28ce9c6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The issue with this methodology (which I have used myself) is that it relies on the host stack to do the heavy lifting. Our draft handles most, if not all of this at the CPE, which will allow for a significant amount of flexibility and reduction of complexity at the host layer. That is a fairly large oversight in the operational model for 90% of v6 users that aren't running BGP. One goal we have is to reduce the time to connectivity failover and make deterministic IPv6 paths easily implemented by non-technical folks, and to create a standard for all CPE to implement with as minimal CPU as possible. nb On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 2:59 PM Dave Taht wrote: > On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 12:48 PM Nick Buraglio wrote: > > > > I have this working now between my providers with straight routing and > gateway checking, but it=E2=80=99s pretty easily doable other ways with p= latforms > like routerOS or pfsense. > > FWIW, I=E2=80=99m working with some others on an IETF draft proposal th= at will > hopefully solve the plaguing problem of multiple IPv6 PD or otherwise > provider assigned address blocks that will make a lot of that easier, too= . > > Hmm? We solved this long ago in cerowrt, openwrt, and in linux, by > using "source specific routing", which is the default for many openwrt > derived OSes. > > Basically it looks like this: > > ip route add from 2001:abcd::/56 via whatever > ip route add from 2001:dbcd::/56 via whatever2 > > You then distribute both sets of ipv6 addresses to the clients. Simple > clean and it solved the bcp38 problem because there is no > default route for any but these ipv6 addresses in the system. It works > well for vpns also. > > Happy eyeballs takes care of the rest. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-babel-source-specific-08 > describes how we added it to the babel routing protocol > as well, so best hops can be easily chosen in a more complex network. > In case I had 5+ comcast uplinks spread across a wifi campus so having > multiple uplinks and failover was needed. It's been up and running > for... 7 years? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source-specific_routing also made it > into a few other places. > > I'm pretty certain every other OS completely missed this key feature > of course including your mikrotik > > > > > > > > nb > > > > > > On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 2:36 PM David Lang wrote: > >> > >> On Mon, 17 May 2021, Nick Buraglio wrote: > >> > >> > Inline > >> > > >> > On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 2:15 PM Dave Taht > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Starlink provides a router, also? I'm so confused. I thought the > dishy > >> >> was all there was. Care to tear it apart and describe what's in it? > >> > > >> > As far as the "router" is concerned, it's very much a consumer grade > >> > device that is managed via the mobile app. I hated it, so I took it > >> > out. It's still up in the attic. near the cable conduit, if I recall= . > >> > >> Fantastic, I was hoping it would be something like this. I think this > opens up a > >> lot of more useful options (including more easily doing failover > between the > >> dish and other network options) > >> > >> David Lang > > > > -- > Latest Podcast: > https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/ > > Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC > --000000000000a4e59505c28ce9c6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The issue with this methodology (which I have used myself)= is that it relies on the host stack to do the heavy lifting. Our draft han= dles most, if not all of this at the CPE, which will allow for a significan= t amount of flexibility and reduction of complexity at the host layer. That= is a fairly large oversight in the operational model for 90% of v6 users t= hat aren't running BGP. One goal we have is to reduce the time to conne= ctivity failover and make deterministic IPv6 paths easily implemented by no= n-technical=C2=A0folks, and to create a standard for all CPE to implement w= ith as minimal CPU as possible.=C2=A0

nb=C2=A0

On M= on, May 17, 2021 at 2:59 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 12:48 PM Nick Buraglio <= ;nick@buraglio.com> wrote:
>
> I have this working now between my providers with straight routing and= gateway checking, but it=E2=80=99s pretty easily doable other ways with pl= atforms like routerOS or pfsense.
> FWIW, I=E2=80=99m working with some others on an IETF draft proposal t= hat will hopefully solve the plaguing problem of multiple IPv6 PD or otherw= ise provider assigned address blocks that will make a lot of that easier, t= oo.

Hmm? We solved this long ago in=C2=A0 cerowrt, openwrt, and in linux, by using "source specific routing", which is the default for many op= enwrt
derived OSes.

Basically it looks like this:

ip route add from 2001:abcd::/56 via whatever
ip route add from 2001:dbcd::/56 via whatever2

You then distribute both sets of ipv6 addresses to the clients. Simple
clean and it solved the bcp38 problem because there is no
default route for any but these ipv6 addresses in the system. It works
well for vpns also.

Happy eyeballs takes care of the rest.

https://datatracker.ietf.or= g/doc/html/draft-ietf-babel-source-specific-08
describes how we added it to the babel routing protocol
as well, so best hops can be easily chosen in a more complex network.
In case I had 5+ comcast uplinks spread across a wifi campus so having
multiple uplinks and failover was needed. It's been up and running
for... 7 years?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source-specific_r= outing also made it
into a few other places.

I'm pretty certain every other OS completely missed this key feature of course including your mikrotik




>
> nb
>
>
> On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 2:36 PM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 17 May 2021, Nick Buraglio wrote:
>>
>> > Inline
>> >
>> > On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 2:15 PM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote= :
>> >>
>> >> Starlink provides a router, also? I'm so confused. I = thought the dishy
>> >> was all there was. Care to tear it apart and describe wha= t's in it?
>> >
>> > As far as the "router" is concerned, it's very = much a consumer grade
>> > device that is managed via the mobile app. I hated it, so I t= ook it
>> > out. It's still up in the attic. near the cable conduit, = if I recall.
>>
>> Fantastic, I was hoping it would be something like this. I think t= his opens up a
>> lot of more useful options (including more easily doing failover b= etween the
>> dish and other network options)
>>
>> David=C2=A0 Lang



--
Latest Podcast:
https://www.linkedin.com/fe= ed/update/urn:li:activity:6791014284936785920/

Dave T=C3=A4ht CTO, TekLibre, LLC
--000000000000a4e59505c28ce9c6--