From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lf1-x135.google.com (mail-lf1-x135.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::135]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 682903B29D; Wed, 8 May 2024 17:22:05 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x135.google.com with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-518931f8d23so155196e87.3; Wed, 08 May 2024 14:22:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1715203324; x=1715808124; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=G82Tf47I1XQFEFNdZKe4E1n47B/D6T0A/MRkw0/sjQ0=; b=dEso9b3pOVBh8An//MqC7r+TMCj5ZgYaNAAZkHnaxKMg3HRHDjP5Syap8tzL+1wzhF bpuCyTxi4DGmAECk3ivk6PStZKC9ozr8s9/U+m7mFqqgfp1Ovlmq31NKL/PZFprXDpK/ pcCjmAFplvGwsH86d+vBQCGVIWAjCLvKWjQzYddqwARB3A7/gd4IAYHWgAjcE2/iudPn /JOa9Pj1gHFS+HeKE/AIixeANMIUSxqwUA2sVF9Odz4E/+339j4fJ0ElNin4YGdvsUIK HEEtvxJUH76RFGxs/U6tS84ryi9of4PKOTkht32PF+/FkPNuxHj9okHInokmgzHXc2W/ ma3A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1715203324; x=1715808124; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=G82Tf47I1XQFEFNdZKe4E1n47B/D6T0A/MRkw0/sjQ0=; b=V6nh5duTyHN4A5aNZkbWVx98T0ngD7SlVi9T4ips2h2r10Vh0gWfcO6k+uItL0/Q21 YiH9I8wgDH/1oZg7wQimApPuSOTlPs/ybGvVKG8J9l41Z4IbjF5tA6pvwQ4ya0SDO7n7 I4Gf837xgnhk3O5190dWE0oFBVF4MsDmVbf8NXjRsi9m7P2QTbawdz0x7SlyGL+GQvOq 189X1uEE7lY+uVNFXe61SjyDpEWKYLjuNyzJdo8eKhyu5JfMg9VeCC+ZbYDBIFJb4qPI hhSz3GmcmwbZKsCIWtqM1b4GGuNayM3gf6u/gOB5uHZfOenLLgp2Ah/suTn0nyG9h8w9 ngcg== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUFuF72Jz8VtDX3oWcqVypHh0MVNIANDTbB8A+gRwotLODXAPABwmbVcySWinvJMXAUXCZdBxdhq+3hcPvmb07dGvVpud1zKz7cFOIiczeShilUQmwdl5wUp0UlKNQDicIfeZrRgm/4y/MFubUVYPHwEk6i8WA9OcFooDHrhgw60YQXy4kDQCdiSN9i+g8Sc/N2 X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxC1xsROBH9+l6IDnOokuDcht/cFNTbg/+L7k8/1WjFD4fByRQG z0h0OLb2t+qXLHABXHfZNzADxM4LrKKycfNSyQh9LOtRIGzFuy9qkOH09whqOaTtAxVzaHpupWc Tmg4W5HJUKuNhLj6sTOeF0jN9v8OhpBVZRBI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGMMQoagCusEgLXSo/5dSujLK1XtYm59dYEMJTyhW1lekF/RALOgR0JRtadTK+/AY1UYOILnY0hwYQ3dhiFvFk= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3a8c:b0:521:b2b5:5ab2 with SMTP id 2adb3069b0e04-521b2b55ab6mr2086922e87.46.1715203323833; Wed, 08 May 2024 14:22:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Dorothy Stanley Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: "Livingood, Jason" , Rich Brown , =?UTF-8?Q?David_Fern=C3=A1ndez?= , bloat , Make-Wifi-fast , Dave Taht via Starlink Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d5b2bb0617f7e48e" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 02 Jun 2024 13:15:52 -0400 Subject: Re: [Starlink] bloat on wifi8 and 802.11 wg X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 21:22:05 -0000 X-Original-Date: Wed, 8 May 2024 14:21:41 -0700 X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 21:22:05 -0000 --000000000000d5b2bb0617f7e48e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To view the submissions that have been made to the 802.11 Working Group on the topic of L4S, please see https://mentor.ieee.org/802.11/documents?is_dcn=3Dl4s All freely and publicly available. Dorothy ---------------------- Dorothy Stanley Hewlett Packard Enterprise dorothy.stanley@hpe.com dstanley1389@gmail.com dstanley@ieee.org +1 630-363-1389 <630-363-1389> On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 8:35=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht wrot= e: > I wish I had gone to the 802.11wg more regularly than I did. I only > gave one bloat related presentation in 2014, shipped the > make-wifi-fast code in 2016(?), and never went back. IETF ate all my > money and time. I just assumed they were all in the slipstream of > linux and openwrt. :/ > > I did have a great meetup a few weeks back with the former 802.11 > chair (dorothy stanley, hi!!!) who is trying to recruit people to > participate in the wifi8 standard and perhaps some finishing touches > on wifi7. She gave a great update on the status of things at the > recent wifinow conference, but as there is a cost to that, perhaps she > can share her slides with us? > > > https://wifinowglobal.com/product/wi-fi-world-congress-usa-2024-sarasota-= florida-presentations-pdf/?mc_cid=3Dbeb1b4a2ed&mc_eid=3D327a64ba92 > > On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 8:28=E2=80=AFAM Livingood, Jason via Bloat > wrote: > > > > Dropping Starlink as Bloat is the right list. The IEEE 802.11 domain is > certainly different than IP, so typical IP CCs don=E2=80=99t apply. In ou= r L4S/NQB > trials, we put LL-marked packets into the AC_VI WMM queue in the Wi-Fi > network. IMO there is more work in 802.11 to focus on latency =E2=80=93 s= o much > focus right now is on throughput over everything else. > > > > > > > > From: Starlink on behalf of > Rich Brown via Starlink > > Reply-To: Rich Brown > > Date: Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 07:33 > > To: David Fern=C3=A1ndez > > Cc: starlink , bloat < > bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net> > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] L4S > > > > > > > > Let's split this thread and use this message to continue the discussion > of L4S. Thanks > > > > > > > > On May 8, 2024, at 5:31 AM, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink < > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > > > > > > > I see that L4S is not really solving everything (I read about issues > with Wi-Fi), although it seems to be a step in the right direction, to be > improved, let's hope. > > > > > > > > At least, Nokia is implementing it in its network gear (for mobile > operators), so the bufferbloat problem is somehow acknowledged by industr= y, > at least initially or partially. > > > > > > > > I have seen two consecutive RFCs to 9330: > > > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9331 > > > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9332 > > > > > > > > I suspect that optimal results require the bufferbloat to be addressed > not only at network layer (IP), but also with some pipelining or > cross-layering at link level (Ethernet, Wi-Fi or any other link technolog= y, > such as 5G, SATCOM, VHF...) > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > David F. > > > > > > > > Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 08:46:03 -0400 > > > > From: Dave Collier-Brown > > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem > > Message-ID: <3d6bdccf-e3d1-4f62-a029-25bfd1f458f5@indexexchange.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"; Format=3D"flowed" > > > > It has an RFC at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9330/ > > > > I read it as a way to rapidly find the available bandwidth without the > TCP "sawtooth". The paper cites fc_codel and research based on it. > > > > I suspect My Smarter Colleagues know more (;-)) > > > > --dave > > > > > > > > On 2024-05-07 08:13, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink wrote: > > Is L4S a solution to bufferbloat? I have read that gamers are happy wit= h > it. > > > > Sorry, I read it here, in Spanish: > > > https://www.adslzone.net/noticias/operadores/retardo-videojuegos-nokia-vo= dafone > > > > Regards, > > > > David F. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Bloat mailing list > > Bloat@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat > > > > -- > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DBVFWSyMp3xg&t=3D1098s Waves Podcast > Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos > --000000000000d5b2bb0617f7e48e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
To view the submissions that have been made to the
802.11 Working Group on the topic of L4S, please see

A= ll freely and publicly available.

Dorothy

On Wed, May 8, = 2024 at 8:35=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
I wish I had gone to the 802.11wg=C2=A0 more regularly= than I did. I only
gave one bloat related presentation in 2014, shipped the
make-wifi-fast code in 2016(?), and never went back. IETF ate all my
money and time. I just assumed they were all in the slipstream of
linux and openwrt. :/

I did have a great meetup a few weeks back with the former 802.11
chair (dorothy stanley, hi!!!) who is trying to recruit people to
participate in the wifi8 standard and perhaps some finishing touches
on wifi7. She gave a great update on the status of things at the
recent wifinow conference, but as there is a cost to that, perhaps she
can share her slides with us?

https://wifinowglobal.com/produc= t/wi-fi-world-congress-usa-2024-sarasota-florida-presentations-pdf/?mc_cid= =3Dbeb1b4a2ed&mc_eid=3D327a64ba92

On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 8:28=E2=80=AFAM Livingood, Jason via Bloat
<bloat@= lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> Dropping Starlink as Bloat is the right list. The IEEE 802.11 domain i= s certainly different than IP, so typical IP CCs don=E2=80=99t apply. In ou= r L4S/NQB trials, we put LL-marked packets into the AC_VI WMM queue in the = Wi-Fi network. IMO there is more work in 802.11 to focus on latency =E2=80= =93 so much focus right now is on throughput over everything else.
>
>
>
> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> on = behalf of Rich Brown via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> Reply-To: Rich Brown <richb.hanover@gmail.com>
> Date: Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 07:33
> To: David Fern=C3=A1ndez <davidfdzp@gmail.com>
> Cc: starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, bloat <bloat@lists.bufferbl= oat.net>
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Bloat] L4S
>
>
>
> Let's split this thread and use this message to continue the discu= ssion of L4S. Thanks
>
>
>
> On May 8, 2024, at 5:31 AM, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink <starlink@li= sts.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> I see that L4S is not really solving everything (I read about issues w= ith Wi-Fi), although it seems to be a step in the right direction, to be im= proved, let's hope.
>
>
>
> At least, Nokia is implementing it in its network gear (for mobile ope= rators), so the bufferbloat problem is somehow acknowledged by industry, at= least initially or partially.
>
>
>
> I have seen two consecutive RFCs to 9330:
>
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9331
>
> https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/rfc9332
>
>
>
> I suspect that optimal results require the bufferbloat to be addressed= not only at network layer (IP), but also with some pipelining or cross-lay= ering at link level (Ethernet, Wi-Fi or any other link technology, such as = 5G, SATCOM, VHF...)
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> David F.
>
>
>
> Date: Tue, 7 May 2024 08:46:03 -0400
>
> From: Dave Collier-Brown <dave.collier-Brown@indexexchange.com&g= t;
> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn&#= 39;t a problem
> Message-ID: <3d6bdccf-e3d1-4f62-a029-25bfd1f458f5@= indexexchange.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8"; Format=3D"= flowed"
>
> It has an RFC at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc9= 330/
>
> I read it as a way to rapidly find the available bandwidth without the= TCP "sawtooth". The paper cites fc_codel and research based on i= t.
>
> I suspect My Smarter Colleagues know more (;-))
>
> --dave
>
>
>
> On 2024-05-07 08:13, David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink wrote:
> Is L4S a solution to bufferbloat? I have read that gamers are happy wi= th it.
>
> Sorry, I read it here, in Spanish:
> https://www.adsl= zone.net/noticias/operadores/retardo-videojuegos-nokia-vodafone
>
> Regards,
>
> David F.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> St= arlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<= /a>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Bloat mailing list
> Bloat= @lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/bloat


--
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DBVFWSyM= p3xg&t=3D1098s Waves Podcast
Dave T=C3=A4ht CSO, LibreQos
--000000000000d5b2bb0617f7e48e--