From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yb1-xb29.google.com (mail-yb1-xb29.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b29]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE0B13B2A4 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 12:02:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb29.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e4930eca0d4so4561708276.3 for ; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 09:02:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1742313760; x=1742918560; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=kIZEkWHjpA4Zec8Et8It7GzNVlbUkKV2VZVi1lBx4Ic=; b=YkHaM6GRkZLB38A0gjQsxPj4KJBDZFxVcCgO7/ti2Rcsms6SbD72geLmZTKDCJbyMA 7C2Vx/uh1h+mjw05uJ2HjkXVcxH8rW68L6I7+G+ypSh8toO0iKRGKDQiIu2S1eulAjSA AwLi0PTiYjXawgDGshvd3vV5okqAvaQKCESIxKpwTHqLnD+w+hFrvTxxmCTGHM0Jo5Bn 5N65UPKV6U+iqhYnaLYn2x0ilopYLwAPAtfp+nhP6p0XaeE7O1Wcy4xOLx+gfAOOcUi/ Jnt4MondEPtLWkEOEbEvHmggEwV74LqsM9IgsqJ6BbgyO0wnA5u8LfCJXTlLiXEDxPzy 43+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1742313760; x=1742918560; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=kIZEkWHjpA4Zec8Et8It7GzNVlbUkKV2VZVi1lBx4Ic=; b=Tr7cpDy/joR5iN3rPkN9OoDekRwXxGuIaIysfg2MfQ/qkaqoVHmb9lOieLqprI3VjD hYhAg8FeH5iZWebSHBJ+JhFuzVa15Z6Gk59reST96eYOaF8uJlBJGwdUMnXze8FgsJ/Q udinvGcPJi4a3hPHb7FDSFRdJprEr4P/Qsg3HnT9JcslQUBpjTltE9/9vgXtW/StIvcC U/rHFCENg6QyNBBMBfTaJ2M9jsEPMgdY0ccxJWSSW5emd0aa4TpIOALZLWeibtpLrRnY K63Ms3jh+TDr8yBFeV9/71q+Qoi8FEXAX+qQEHFgN+yDDtE9rkF1rTbp738hUKujQB6+ 0edA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YysobnSyK4SQyeypNDy6cEA0B4WcrWI6kmVumEuRze68wFRorLG qOpZkfCNiiaOvqc7v9Z7ir+FbLhi5amXD8+aL2YEtb9dbuxJzhtyfGTKhepiCqXdGAMzaC+RO9r d1vmI3BBRRsjKKNrdcWQc52H2Jk3n0Q== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsrCVyZndGlETTa8bSek0UC/H6pgSnh5DpvxBG1vVVhwxJV95TQ+YOnY04MPJR I9+dO6yMf/0MVAfRcnlB5zaVtIroF9GBjMM8tis0Zr48p286jVA2s8AYEhutpnhe1W4h5/bPYL7 akxZS577YJgg4IKrGQhrZXMF/IrIdwx9Hvwl+X8632O8sEa1qXMLSXsMUfPex/ X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFeFuKeb80DtruN37hKztnXEwLmMGd0crg5Cir6a4vonXAjca0SgGoFN3qc68O6p0m3xad08mGGZ5Y4gJDqpLI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6902:6d10:b0:e64:3fcc:dfba with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-e643fcce5f4mr5037114276.46.1742313760048; Tue, 18 Mar 2025 09:02:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6nn799r0-q896-4osn-23no-733oorno0p55@ynat.uz> <1oqn4685-8qsp-923n-9p4s-487rn4p65o77@ynat.uz> <822574.1742275322@dyas> <524ae111-aa24-4fb8-9447-c4046902987d@Spark> In-Reply-To: <524ae111-aa24-4fb8-9447-c4046902987d@Spark> From: Steve Stroh Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 12:02:28 -0400 X-Gm-Features: AQ5f1JoZIu4sqfVte0jKGxXSmf-0cvSzkFnGTaGhZHduxdBcWJTm6ueS1wa3lBo Message-ID: To: Mike Puchol Cc: Starlink , 5grm-satellite@ieee.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c154c50630a008ad" Subject: Re: [Starlink] Alphabet spins off Starlink competitor Taara X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 18 Mar 2025 16:02:40 -0000 --000000000000c154c50630a008ad Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mike: Wow! I was wondering what made Tara that different from all the previous FSO vendors until I saw the range number. That=E2=80=99s a huge advantage t= o be able to do that at optical thus no RF interference issues. Thanks for the great writeup! Steve Stroh Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) Editor Zero Retries Newsletter - https://www.zeroretries.org Radios are Computers - With Antennas! On Tue, Mar 18, 2025 at 02:43 Mike Puchol via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > As I work for Taara, I=E2=80=99ll be happy to answer doubts & questions w= here I > can! > > With that, a few thoughts. Please note that these are my own personal > musings, and not the official position of Taara - I=E2=80=99m not in PR o= r marcomms. > > IMHO the =E2=80=9CTaara is going to compete with Starlink=E2=80=9D is a c= omment that was > taken by a reporter and turned into the major headline. Think of it in > terms of every time you heard of a social network startup becoming the ne= w > =E2=80=9CFacebook killer=E2=80=9D. Taara is currently playing in the midd= le mile, it is > point to point, terrestrial only, and will move into last mile with the > help of the optical phased array (the =E2=80=9CTaara chip=E2=80=9D that w= as announced at > MWC). > > In order to directly compete with Starlink, we=E2=80=99d have to become a= fully > fledged ISP, and vertically integrate the whole distribution down to > individual customers - and we know what kind of investment that requires. > Can we help ISPs that play on the same turf as Starlink? Sure. Can we hel= p > in urban cellular networks where densification is challenged by congested > RF and costly fiber? Yes indeed. Are we a replacement for Starlink? No. > > As for the current Taara Lightbridge system, it is a point to point, > Earth-based, 20 Gbps bidirectional system. The maximum rated distance is = 20 > km as we keep a certain reserve margin, however, we successfully closed a > link at 54 km across the Bay Area, and technically we could achieve 75 km > with zero margin. > > How do we keep a laser aligned? We use a combination of coarse pointing > mirror which gives us 6=C2=BA at slow rates (think compensation for struc= tural > movements due to day/night thermals), and a fine steering mirror that can > adjust 0.5=C2=BA at very high rates, used to compensate vibrations, and t= o some > extent, scintillation. > > The chip allows us to remove some of these mechanical components and > compress some of the system, for example, removing the coarse pointing > mirror and making the telescope smaller. The OPA allows focusing and > steering the laser beam, and also compensate for phase and wave front > errors, something we can=E2=80=99t do with Lightbridge. > > Weather does affect the optical spectrum, to the tune of hundreds of dB/k= m > at certain wavelengths - in scenarios where this can be a factor, we can = be > deployed in hybrid with an RF system. Our typical use cases are capacity > upgrades, where instead of replacing an existing microwave link with > another microwave link to maybe gain 1-2 Gbps, the operator can gain 20 > Gbps for 95-99.9% of the time. > > Best, > > Mike > On Mar 17, 2025 at 22:22 -0700, Michael Richardson via Starlink < > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, wrote: > > > David Lang via Starlink wrote: > > Since it kept talking about being a replacement for Starlink, I assumed > that the towers would communicate with satellites. If there are no > satellites being used, then it's not going to be a Starlink competitor > as you would have to build a long chain of laser towers to try and > provide service everywhere. > > > (It would work fine for the flat earth types though) > (or if you live on Terry Pratchard's Discword) > > But, seriously we have lots and lots of microwave towers from decades ago= . > I think most are abandonned due to fibre being better, but getting new > rights > of way for fiber is probably hard. The railways were delighted to be > involved 30 years ago, but now, I suspect the field is closed to any new > entrants. > > So lasers between towers makes a lot of sense to me. > Particularly through/across marshy tundra in, for instance, Canada's nort= h. > > Just not between pacific islands. > > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails [ > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --000000000000c154c50630a008ad Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Mike:

= Wow! I was wondering what made Tara that different from all the previous FS= O vendors until I saw the range number. That=E2=80=99s a huge advantage to = be able to do that at optical thus no RF interference issues.=C2=A0

Thanks for the great writeup!

Steve Stroh

Steve Stroh N8G= NJ (he / him / his)
Editor
Zero Retries Newsletter - https://www.zeroretries.org=
Radios are Computers - With Antennas!


On Tue, Mar 18, 2025 at 02:43 = Mike Puchol via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
As I work for Taara, I=E2=80=99ll be happy to answer doub= ts & questions where I can!=C2=A0

With that, a few thoughts. Please note that these are my own personal musin= gs, and not the official position of Taara - I=E2=80=99m not in PR or marco= mms.

IMHO the =E2=80=9CTaara is going to compete with Starlink=E2=80=9D is a com= ment that was taken by a reporter and turned into the major headline. Think= of it in terms of every time you heard of a social network startup becomin= g the new =E2=80=9CFacebook killer=E2=80=9D. Taara is currently playing in = the middle mile, it is point to point, terrestrial only, and will move into= last mile with the help of the optical phased array (the =E2=80=9CTaara ch= ip=E2=80=9D that was announced at MWC).

In order to directly compete with Starlink, we=E2=80=99d have to become a f= ully fledged ISP, and vertically integrate the whole distribution down to i= ndividual customers - and we know what kind of investment that requires. Ca= n we help ISPs that play on the same turf as Starlink? Sure. Can we help in= urban cellular networks where densification is challenged by congested RF = and costly fiber? Yes indeed. Are we a replacement for Starlink? No.

As for the current Taara Lightbridge system, it is a point to point, Earth-= based, 20 Gbps bidirectional system. The maximum rated distance is 20 km as= we keep a certain reserve margin, however, we successfully closed a link a= t 54 km across the Bay Area, and technically we could achieve 75 km with ze= ro margin.

How do we keep a laser aligned? We use a combination of coarse pointing mir= ror which gives us 6=C2=BA at slow rates (think compensation for structural= movements due to day/night thermals), and a fine steering mirror that can = adjust 0.5=C2=BA at very high rates, used to compensate vibrations, and to = some extent, scintillation.

The chip allows us to remove some of these mechanical components and compre= ss some of the system, for example, removing the coarse pointing mirror and= making the telescope smaller. The OPA allows focusing and steering the las= er beam, and also compensate for phase and wave front errors, something we = can=E2=80=99t do with Lightbridge.

Weather does affect the optical spectrum, to the tune of hundreds of dB/km = at certain wavelengths - in scenarios where this can be a factor, we can be= deployed in hybrid with an RF system. Our typical use cases are capacity u= pgrades, where instead of replacing an existing microwave link with another= microwave link to maybe gain 1-2 Gbps, the operator can gain 20 Gbps for 9= 5-99.9% of the time.

Best,

Mike
On Mar 17, 2025 at 22:22 -0700, Michael R= ichardson via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>, wrote:

David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Since it kept talking about being a replacement f= or Starlink, I assumed
that the towers would communicate with satellites. If there are no
satellites being used, then it's not going to be a Starlink competitor<= br> as you would have to build a long chain of laser towers to try and
provide service everywhere.

(It would work fine for the flat earth types though)
(or if you live on Terry Pratchard's Discword)

But, seriously we have lots and lots of microwave towers from decades ago.<= br> I think most are abandonned due to fibre being better, but getting new righ= ts
of way for fiber is probably hard. The railways were delighted to be
involved 30 years ago, but now, I suspect the field is closed to any new entrants.

So lasers between towers makes a lot of sense to me.
Particularly through/across marshy tundra in, for instance, Canada's no= rth.

Just not between pacific islands.

--
] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh networks [
] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | network architect [
] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelm= an.ca/ | ruby on rails [


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