From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pj1-x102a.google.com (mail-pj1-x102a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AB903B29D for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 13:31:42 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102a.google.com with SMTP id h12so9164038pjk.0 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 10:31:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=/76xnADYaekNg/goqU1mFEY9GMWbc7MXX0Zm0BgMRqo=; b=EPBPLODL3pV0cmRj3yQJkkeNek8magg+z1JFwGev2QCtO0qLAINrprfaR58x0HdYvw cC22sri4Uey6HUCwhU+YH2KXpv26jkZ1HVKZaUCdLSjH6MV53R8IJeOTRh3fWZe7mKdW Sr4lZIQ4InkizUuXVWnLHhJ2xEfXrkmIl5CH6xWN76Y/8WdRWJgLOvEEOdj/9ZbzzMXD db5gAN/VMJ3ztPKoR3ELbvPbsNaioS7jOTGf4+3922ZI4D27+p9Chvdl29nHeRfbaWJD mylK1as2BRlN2bB6RbajDwviv8DHOCpDBEModVbc4TQempDO4Jq0/LA0JEk7/c4Sa312 j+jg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=/76xnADYaekNg/goqU1mFEY9GMWbc7MXX0Zm0BgMRqo=; b=xe7E4hFsqh7on63Y3tkanvrdWkXN23a13BA1LrlMDZolwjLZBCktL+M1Ake07VxpqZ S9EwpSR/2VPj9srEOUwbIamfbvi+TzfbIG9cBNewUVLYxp5LeDOaKB92FctAsuFgNJON isxYAxuv4S1ZifPeF00HkoNNGHCK5+3+JOA42y/VolRdnoQkmxE1k0u9Ju7tCY98wBVZ np0OJZO4CRrB55qdO5lhfQRMUWEBrEBShyMk9znux4FMZ/+0hDhxVu1rKvcilRGrit9W rbHNk0AKbMEu0Wt/QBFsLgt1wCSuJ/rH0fkm6lBYOMrbLfiIeLOhZF/OdFNEUbRu27p/ 34Nw== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf0Zm2uq6F7H9vZgLsH35rhgZxCYZQm4bZ5EDdDO3wuUi5YYZgK5 eobXGUYeaaWaQorQfPySJ+Li2gBrPPRAPAhkh+sxTxOW X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM5k3QqJNVG9YQSJ3NaL1v0oGlOlpMckvc8yC2JhXBBoT3iX/njpQTf2qNIEwSmNoQA+q6tEmwRl644co2cbQw4= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:1f86:b0:205:d3d0:1931 with SMTP id so6-20020a17090b1f8600b00205d3d01931mr9356786pjb.211.1665941501692; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 10:31:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8735bqpq1r.wl-jch@irif.fr> <65rp9416-298q-33n8-6p20-6195sqp691oq@ynat.uz> <87v8omo8r3.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87h706ntwi.wl-jch@irif.fr> <3263acfd-aa5d-4404-805d-0ed966185d5a@Spark> In-Reply-To: <3263acfd-aa5d-4404-805d-0ed966185d5a@Spark> From: Steve Stroh Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 10:31:28 -0700 Message-ID: To: Mike Puchol Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006cd10305eb2a3b68" Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian army? X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 17:31:43 -0000 --0000000000006cd10305eb2a3b68 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On the battlefield, high power continuous jamming such as you describe tends not to last very long. There are special missiles (HARM - High speed AntiRadiation Missile) to remedy that situation. They home in on a jamming transmitter like a beacon. One of the stellar attributes about Starlink is that it=E2=80=99s using pha= sed array antennas on both user terminals and satellites, proving a =E2=80=9Cti= ght beam=E2=80=9D. I=E2=80=99m speculating, but my guess is that clever program= ming is configuring the satellite beams to be contoured to ignore contested areas where jamming is being attempted. An additional speculation is that Starlink is programming both the satellites and user terminals to continuously authenticate each other=E2=80=99s transmission, allowing them = to ignore spoofing attempts. Not to mention that the directional nature of the beams allows for a positional reality check. If a terminal is attempted to be used by the enemy and the terminal=E2=80=99s internal GPS is spoofed to say it=E2=80=99= s well within Ukraine (good guy territory) rather than its real location outside Ukraine (bad guy territory), the satellite can discern that a terminal really isn= =E2=80=99t where it=E2=80=99s reporting it is, and that terminal gets (permanently?) deauthorized. On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 13:45 Mike Puchol via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > Pumping out RF at fairly high power levels, and pointing an antenna at a > satellite, are both things very easy to do for someone like Russia. To th= en > jam 500 MHz of spectrum all at once is not that trivial, and one can get > creative, eg by only attacking the reference subcarriers in OFDM, thus > concentrating RF power on those, rather than the whole channel. > > There are some papers written around jamming LTE by attacking specific > resources instead of the whole band, making the attack less conspicuous, > something similar could be applied against Starlink. By not using brute > force, you also make the attack harder to detect and counter. > > My view is that Russia is not worried about being noticed, and just > applies brute force. > > Best, > > Mike > On Oct 14, 2022 at 20:26 +0200, Juliusz Chroboczek , wrote: > > Juliusz, see the Twitter thread I linked to, it explains precisely the > jamming scenarios they could be facing, and how they are possible. > > > I saw it after I wrote my question, and it does explain a lot. Thanks. > > Do you have an idea how difficult it is to actually do in practice? Is it > a simple matter of plugging a second-hand VSAT dish to an old amateur > radio rig, or do you actually need to be a research lab of the Moscow > Academy of Sciences to do it? > > -- Juliusz > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --=20 Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) Editor Zero Retries Newsletter - https://zeroretries.substack.com --0000000000006cd10305eb2a3b68 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On the battlefield, high power continuous jamming such as= you describe tends not to last very long. There are special missiles (HARM= - High speed AntiRadiation Missile) to remedy that situation. They home in= on a jamming transmitter like a beacon.

<= div dir=3D"auto">One of the stellar attributes about Starlink is that it=E2= =80=99s using phased array antennas on both user terminals and satellites, = proving a =E2=80=9Ctight beam=E2=80=9D. I=E2=80=99m speculating, but my gue= ss is that clever programming is configuring the satellite beams to be cont= oured to ignore contested areas where jamming is being attempted. An additi= onal speculation is that Starlink is programming both the satellites and us= er terminals to continuously authenticate each other=E2=80=99s transmission= , allowing them to ignore spoofing attempts.

Not to mention that the directional nature of the beam= s allows for a positional reality check. If a terminal is attempted to be u= sed by the enemy and the terminal=E2=80=99s internal GPS is spoofed to say = it=E2=80=99s well within Ukraine (good guy territory) rather than its real = location outside Ukraine (bad guy territory), the satellite can discern tha= t a terminal really isn=E2=80=99t where it=E2=80=99s reporting it is, and t= hat terminal gets (permanently?) deauthorized.

On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at = 13:45 Mike Puchol via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
Pumping out RF at fairly high power levels, and pointing = an antenna at a satellite, are both things very easy to do for someone like= Russia. To then jam 500 MHz of spectrum all at once is not that trivial, a= nd one can get creative, eg by only attacking the reference subcarriers in = OFDM, thus concentrating RF power on those, rather than the whole channel.= =C2=A0

There are some papers written around jamming LTE by attacking specific reso= urces instead of the whole band, making the attack less conspicuous, someth= ing similar could be applied against Starlink. By not using brute force, yo= u also make the attack harder to detect and counter.

My view is that Russia is not worried about being noticed, and just applies= brute force.

Best,

Mike
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--
Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he /= him / his)
Editor
Zero Retries Newsletter - https://zeroretries.substack.com

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