From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3196C3CB37 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 14:05:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com with SMTP id p203so9384027ybb.13 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 11:05:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; t=1678817121; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to; bh=gZqCBbHnH4lUcNH0jqvdwba5W3JVwTApSZiNTUJTi+M=; b=oCp+KA5KLB34kD0FiN47JBg56k8WGZytcCJ5zZi1hGqFyE4LCE9TnCzveu/jE9bFVt pMjyRxxSzyL2qHzSiwzrbfCN/akpKJjjR0STWEanpO6yEg38LgdTcfCR2rgu0SoFnFqI fUCoFwIOyE/6n+l0R0XlJ6Y1MFMa07rY/xaWPBlDEJzUf//FcbvN06XFyIaUYjdLnijq xfCOISSRqsqWE4+Bq7ouXuwcskyQbm3ISDb2ZdqGQH0+qut+wHdkcRiiUN5dwNWI8b4C /SophMNdW9nFKhxseHuCkFljxKBLRE2o5WJGVGqc2vyuBrHIgfSCF1pgZ22TRLbdcRp2 3a4w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678817121; h=content-transfer-encoding:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=gZqCBbHnH4lUcNH0jqvdwba5W3JVwTApSZiNTUJTi+M=; b=ZfZsnv/BF8/hBokKayAHIyQxwSLsli/nTkjVYbn3SsRTC3Oe7eWx4zjerwNxLe+JRd bJEXu9sR0xhOsoKYlJEG5PjhC0BY6U8Ymeq3zhnNMhbfzcl4kfgxWUkHHZk29iQM1Tn2 pKj6XxdxhxO+v1XgUOYwlYyyPcItsd1KZ16Xfv/ge+VxrB2V0PXIpKwg+7KXhC1IeUAI fNOpyfLdqbO3bABzNjGiHX3JHbByGpdI6jblr+JZ5LP3LXukPLny8gYdYYbLajA4UhKY o7HelsswstUK+XlNmSXPMNJfcTiG4+8tuYaq4DVXuTFH/qmhi5mPPU2abTSMK40AcBVw l/qQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKUvPKakjhJZ984Ww6IGu4rxSAc0mxNqDAmwEOa3MSR8zckYk5o8 i37Btuq4OoQNTZKkeoKGoccyfzoIKWcpFuYScOom8OiP X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set921ANQi3BHwDCtsE9ccXM9OICdJtOlj8Rta+19NIBD6YMlu9UDdnqQ4NWJMAwOUvVHxr6Cr8VKTiAYTrwj/uo= X-Received: by 2002:a25:8d88:0:b0:b17:e69b:b82a with SMTP id o8-20020a258d88000000b00b17e69bb82amr12962784ybl.8.1678817121213; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 11:05:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1672786712.106922180@apps.rackspace.com> <77CCAD19-07E0-4F9E-88C1-D207CF7BF376@cable.comcast.com> <83ffc0dad19e3343e49271889369cefc@rjmcmahon.com> <3CD0B9E6-0B2A-4A70-8F53-ED0822DF77A6@gmx.de> <13DE6E53-665F-4C20-BBE2-70E685421E9D@gmx.de> <22C819FA-DDD7-4B9B-8C09-8008D4273287@gmx.de> <5e7fac51071bdbb20837e72e7eedfc7c@rjmcmahon.com> <3f45d2a0b6e46d7b2775fb801e805f93@rjmcmahon.com> <70F71290-C6CB-4D19-8A88-F0F17C0BDDA2@gmx.de> <5e0cd693c4749d128dbb48d6c1129071@rjmcmahon.com> In-Reply-To: From: Steve Stroh Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 11:05:04 -0700 Message-ID: To: Starlink list Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [Starlink] On FiWi X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 18:05:22 -0000 Bob: Three technologies have come together in the past few years to make (close to what you're proposing) a reality. 1. Airvine just announced a product that they posit is indoor fiber backhaul... without the fiber. They use 60 GHz mesh to achieve up to 2 Gbps. 2. Wi-Fi 6E makes use of not just the 5 GHz band, but the 6 GHz band to be able to use more than 1.5 GHz of spectrum for Wi-Fi. That allows lots of demanding Wi-Fi users to stay out of each other's way, especially if you shrink the range of the AP to basically just an apartment. 3. CBRS allows private use of 3.5 GHz spectrum by individuals, businesses and venues. Run fiber to where it makes sense - such as down hallways to a fiber / 60 GHz transition point such as Airvine offers. Finish the last hundred feet (into the apartment) with 6 GHz. In commercial buildings such as apartments, smoke detectors are generally wired to power. Install a combo smoke detector / Wi-Fi AP / 6 GHz end point. Then the venue, such as an apartment building, can easily offer Broadband Internet service, on a par with Comcast. CBRS allows private phone service in buildings for internal use - tightly managed, Internet of things that prefer cellular. Eventually this will evolve to the point where if a building is "wired" with CBRS, the cellcos will pay the building to act as a neutral carrier for them, saving them the expense of having to "light up the building" themselves, either internally with pico / microcells, or painting it externally. There's money to be made deploying these technologies, especially for third parties to deploy and manage these systems. Venue owners desperately want "only one neck to wring" when things go wrong. They hate having to figure out if something is a Comcast problem, a telco problem, a Wi-Fi problem, etc. Steve Stroh On Mon, Mar 13, 2023 at 9:27=E2=80=AFPM rjmcmahon via Starlink wrote: > > To change the topic - curious to thoughts on FiWi. > > Imagine a world with no copper cable called FiWi (Fiber,VCSEL/CMOS > Radios, Antennas) and which is point to point inside a building > connected to virtualized APs fiber hops away. Each remote radio head > (RRH) would consume 5W or less and only when active. No need for things > like zigbee, or meshes, or threads as each radio has a fiber connection > via Corning's actifi or equivalent. Eliminate the AP/Client power > imbalance. Plastics also can house smoke or other sensors. > > Some reminders from Paul Baran in 1994 (and from David Reed) > > o) Shorter range rf transceivers connected to fiber could produce a > significant improvement - - tremendous improvement, really. > o) a mixture of terrestrial links plus shorter range radio links has the > effect of increasing by orders and orders of magnitude the amount of > frequency spectrum that can be made available. > o) By authorizing high power to support a few users to reach slightly > longer distances we deprive ourselves of the opportunity to serve the > many. > o) Communications systems can be built with 10dB ratio > o) Digital transmission when properly done allows a small signal to > noise ratio to be used successfully to retrieve an error free signal. > o) And, never forget, any transmission capacity not used is wasted > forever, like water over the dam. Not using such techniques represent > lost opportunity. > > And on waveguides: > > o) "Fiber transmission loss is ~0.5dB/km for single mode fiber, > independent of modulation" > o) =E2=80=9CCopper cables and PCB traces are very frequency dependent. A= t > 100Gb/s, the loss is in dB/inch." > o) "Free space: the power density of the radio waves decreases with the > square of distance from the transmitting antenna due to spreading of the > electromagnetic energy in space according to the inverse square law" > > The sunk costs & long-lived parts of FiWi are the fiber and the CPE > plastics & antennas, as CMOS radios+ & fiber/laser, e.g. VCSEL could be > pluggable, allowing for field upgrades. Just like swapping out SFP in a > data center. > > This approach basically drives out WiFi latency by eliminating shared > queues and increases capacity by orders of magnitude by leveraging 10dB > in the spatial dimension, all of which is achieved by a physical design. > Just place enough RRHs as needed (similar to a pop up sprinkler in an > irrigation system.) > > Start and build this for an MDU and the value of the building improves. > Sadly, there seems no way to capture that value other than over long > term use. It doesn't matter whether the leader of the HOA tries to > capture the value or if a last mile provider tries. The value remains > sunk or hidden with nothing on the asset side of the balance sheet. > We've got a CAPEX spend that has to be made up via "OPEX returns" over > years. > > But the asset is there. > > How do we do this? > > Bob > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --=20 Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) Editor Zero Retries Newsletter - https://zeroretries.substack.com