From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x52f.google.com (mail-ed1-x52f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF8713B2A4 for ; Sun, 8 Aug 2021 01:08:10 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52f.google.com with SMTP id z11so19442940edb.11 for ; Sat, 07 Aug 2021 22:08:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=MEM//63cLpW6svqwqMLICITWsvKdHREUJ8eBm7ATvQU=; b=LSMYOIAiYNwK8ckPeuu/SR0UP/UzFsPu+67sw+LQZuHs4RYFQJsk12mPjepOnL+BXQ ifwb5ix9kW7WzDOnwDkj8//CoxTxa7hoZsDcLepbzXbcHUanwlOUmJFnFL0ovZbQJGLj zYllCVgAgXHunvxaryxSpzFA+fnbGwC6N2ht8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=MEM//63cLpW6svqwqMLICITWsvKdHREUJ8eBm7ATvQU=; b=XssH7ubRcooMzfBOGze7iXY+iZgnhT5KD1N5qymsC/GeOWq9CW4FxKoZyoZvZ2njv4 iJmPuCwvobhiqKNY42pfrO0aI3n9NUxcyrbKtjoeae1kBGlGXUTxjy2PrSWl7vZLdfkU o87PLZAttRwl/b31r+DPg7TwDCbdz33Ez2ZoSdKUXO3XtVE1h/UxVcaReO2xmvLtDDUq 83zRIgaoL1dgNokzcgsT7Gl8UVbDJhuGUaCLLBNn/30ebkKbkg7p1FqbXOc5XtVEnhtj KH170ciAI63pbbdhzoHPohsX+V1E6tjHdle57Dc9Om+e1zEErS4Fggj1dhmqXgTrASUK rxVg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533jLNl7hdEKBh954DfJpqUNO6odYKjvIAE9/wqAVcK51kjyDteV ljP40ZTWBLfBuFHO8TDBdwTostz7ftlCH91O9wsrVp/N6QC1jLgfDYKvC5OVf8eckPlGJQQrcZ/ 9+LvaT3WSQxOnPGhbmc2WqZlPaFDoc1mONA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJx8VvfpI10aZGIFGORIKnzCt7rJM3aRLSFYuOO0K2scCqdV1ZEnmB2J78ySqwPVutM+4xC0tQbTtWhnnQa1Q5Q= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:d8d4:: with SMTP id k20mr21889237eds.373.1628399287716; Sat, 07 Aug 2021 22:08:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1625188609.32718319@apps.rackspace.com> <989de0c1-e06c-cda9-ebe6-1f33df8a4c24@candelatech.com> <1625773080.94974089@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: From: Bob McMahon Date: Sat, 7 Aug 2021 22:07:56 -0700 Message-ID: To: dickroy@alum.mit.edu Cc: David Lang , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, Make-Wifi-fast , Cake List , codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, cerowrt-devel , bloat Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="0000000000001d1fbf05c9054192" Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Aug 2021 05:08:11 -0000 --0000000000001d1fbf05c9054192 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000191c2d05c90541e0" --000000000000191c2d05c90541e0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks - your wording is more accurate. The path loss matrix is hollow symmetric while the RF channel is reciprocal. The challenge comes when adding phase shifters. Then it's not just a path loss matrix anymore. Bob On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 10:04 PM Dick Roy wrote: > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] *On > Behalf Of *Bob McMahon > *Sent:* Monday, August 2, 2021 8:23 PM > *To:* David Lang > *Cc:* starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net; Make-Wifi-fast; Cake List; > codel@lists.bufferbloat.net; cerowrt-devel; bloat > *Subject:* Re: [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug > 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board > > > > The distance matrix defines signal attenuations/loss between pairs. > > *[RR] Which makes it a path loss matrix rather than a distance matrix > actually.* > > It's straightforward to create a distance matrix that has hidden nodes > because all "signal loss" between pairs is defined. Let's say a 120dB > attenuation path will cause a node to be hidden as an example. > > A B C D > > A - 35 120 65 > > B - 65 65 > > C - 65 > > D - > > So in the above, AC are hidden from each other but nobody else is. It doe= s > assume symmetry between pairs but that's typically true. > > *[RR] I=E2=80=99m guessing you really mean reciprocal rather than symmetr= ic. An RF > channel is reciprocal if the loss when A is transmitting to B is the same > as that when B is transmitting to A. When the tx powers and rx > sensitivities are such that when combined with the path loss(es) the =E2= =80=9Clink > budget=E2=80=9D is the same in both directions, the links are balanced a= nd > therefore have the same capacity. * > > > > The RF device takes these distance matrices as settings and calculates th= e > five branch tree values (as demonstrated in the video). > > There are limitations to solutions though but I've found those not to be > an issue to date. I've been able to produce hidden nodes quite readily. A= dd > the phase shifters and spatial stream powers can also be affected, but th= is > isn't shown in this simple example. > > Bob > > > > On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 8:12 PM David Lang wrote: > > I guess it depends on what you are intending to test. If you are not goin= g > to > tinker with any of the over-the-air settings (including the number of > packets > transmitted in one aggregate), the details of what happen over the air > don't > matter much. > > But if you are going to be doing any tinkering with what is getting sent, > and > you ignore the hidden transmitter type problems, you will create a > solution that > seems to work really well in the lab and falls on it's face out in the > wild > where spectrum overload and hidden transmitters are the norm (at least in > urban > areas), not rare corner cases. > > you don't need to include them in every test, but you need to have a way > to > configure your lab to include them before you consider any > settings/algorithm > ready to try in the wild. > > David Lang > > On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, Bob McMahon wrote: > > > We find four nodes, a primary BSS and an adjunct one quite good for lot= s > of > > testing. The six nodes allows for a primary BSS and two adjacent ones. > We > > want to minimize complexity to necessary and sufficient. > > > > The challenge we find is having variability (e.g. montecarlos) that's > > reproducible and has relevant information. Basically, the distance > matrices > > have h-matrices as their elements. Our chips can provide these > h-matrices. > > > > The parts for solid state programmable attenuators and phase shifters > > aren't very expensive. A device that supports a five branch tree and 2x= 2 > > MIMO seems a very good starting point. > > > > Bob > > > > On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 4:55 PM Ben Greear > wrote: > > > >> On 8/2/21 4:16 PM, David Lang wrote: > >>> If you are going to setup a test environment for wifi, you need to > >> include the ability to make a fe cases that only happen with RF, not > with > >> wired networks and > >>> are commonly overlooked > >>> > >>> 1. station A can hear station B and C but they cannot hear each other > >>> 2. station A can hear station B but station B cannot hear station A 3= . > >> station A can hear that station B is transmitting, but not with a stro= ng > >> enough signal to > >>> decode the signal (yes in theory you can work around interference, bu= t > >> in practice interference is still a real thing) > >>> > >>> David Lang > >>> > >> > >> To add to this, I think you need lots of different station devices, > >> different capabilities (/n, /ac, /ax, etc) > >> different numbers of spatial streams, and different distances from the > >> AP. From download queueing perspective, changing > >> the capabilities may be sufficient while keeping all stations at same > >> distance. This assumes you are not > >> actually testing the wifi rate-ctrl alg. itself, so different throughp= ut > >> levels for different stations would be enough. > >> > >> So, a good station emulator setup (and/or pile of real stations) and a > few > >> RF chambers and > >> programmable attenuators and you can test that setup... > >> > >> From upload perspective, I guess same setup would do the job. > >> Queuing/fairness might depend a bit more on the > >> station devices, emulated or otherwise, but I guess a clever AP could > >> enforce fairness in upstream direction > >> too by implementing per-sta queues. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Ben > >> > >> -- > >> Ben Greear > >> Candela Technologies Inc http://www.candelatech.com > >> > > > > > > > This electronic communication and the information and any files > transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended > solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed an= d > may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protect= ed > by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. = If > you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for deliveri= ng > the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any us= e, > copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of > this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, > please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and > destroy any printed copy of it. > --=20 This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted= =20 with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for=20 the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain= =20 information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy= =20 laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are=20 not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the=20 e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use,=20 copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of= =20 this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error,= =20 please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and= =20 destroy any printed copy of it. --000000000000191c2d05c90541e0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks - your wording is more accurate. The path loss matr= ix is hollow symmetric while the RF channel is reciprocal.=C2=A0

The= challenge comes when adding phase shifters. Then it's not just=C2=A0a = path loss matrix anymore.

Bob

On Sat, Aug 7, 2021 at 10:04 PM Dick Ro= y <dickroy@alum.mit.edu> = wrote:

=C2=A0=

=C2=A0=

From:<= font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"> Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf Of Bob McMahon
Sent: Monday, August 2, 2021= 8:23 PM
To: David Lang
Cc: starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net; Make-Wifi-fast; Cake List; codel@list= s.bufferbloat.net; cerowrt-devel; bloat
Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Cak= e] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP f= or the internet architecture board

=C2=A0

The distance matrix defines signal attenuations/loss between pairs.=C2=A0 =

[RR] Which makes it a pat= h loss matrix rather than a distance matrix actually.=

It's straightforwar= d to create a distance matrix that has hidden nodes because all "signal=C2= =A0 loss"=C2=A0between=C2=A0pairs is defined.=C2=A0 Let's say a 120dB attenuation path will cause a node to be hidden as an example.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A=C2=A0 =C2=A0 B=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0C=C2=A0 =C2=A0 D=C2=A0

A=C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A035=C2=A0 =C2=A0120=C2=A0 = =C2=A065

B=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 65=C2=A0 =C2=A065

C=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A065

D=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-

So in the above, AC are hidden from each other=C2=A0but nobody else is. It = does assume symmetry between=C2=A0pairs but that's typically true.

[RR] I=E2=80=99m guessing you really mean reciprocal r= ather than symmetric. An RF channel is reciprocal if the loss when A is transmitting t= o B is the same as that when B is transmitting to A. When the tx powers and rx = sensitivities are such that when combined with the path loss(es) the =E2=80=9Clink budget= =E2=80=9D is =C2=A0the same in both directions, the links are balanced and therefore = have the same capacity.



The RF device takes these distance matrices=C2=A0as settings and calculates= the five branch tree values (as demonstrated in the video).

There are limitations=C2=A0to solutions=C2=A0though bu= t I've found those not to be an issue to date. I've been able to produce hidden node= s quite readily. Add the phase shifters=C2=A0and spatial stream powers can also be affected, but this isn't shown in this simple example.

Bob

=C2=A0

On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 8:12 PM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:=

I guess it depends on what you are intending to test. = If you are not going to
tinker with any of the over-the-air settings (including the number of packe= ts
transmitted in one aggregate), the details of what happen over the air don&= #39;t
matter much.

But if you are going to be doing any tinkering with what is getting sent, a= nd
you ignore the hidden transmitter type problems, you will create a solution that
seems to work really well in the lab and falls on it's face out in the = wild
where spectrum overload and hidden transmitters are the norm (at least in u= rban
areas), not rare corner cases.

you don't need to include them in every test, but you need to have a wa= y to
configure your lab to include them before you consider any settings/algorit= hm
ready to try in the wild.

David Lang

On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, Bob McMahon wrote:

> We find four nodes, a primary BSS and an adjunct one quite good for lo= ts of
> testing.=C2=A0 The six nodes allows for a primary BSS and two adjacent ones. We
> want to minimize complexity to necessary and sufficient.
>
> The challenge we find is having variability (e.g. montecarlos) that= 9;s
> reproducible and has relevant information. Basically, the distance matrices
> have h-matrices as their elements. Our chips can provide these h-matri= ces.
>
> The parts for solid state programmable attenuators and phase shifters<= br> > aren't very expensive. A device that supports a five branch tree a= nd 2x2
> MIMO seems a very good starting point.
>
> Bob
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 4:55 PM Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com> wrote:
>
>> On 8/2/21 4:16 PM, David Lang wrote:
>>> If you are going to setup a test environment for wifi, you nee= d to
>> include the ability to make a fe cases that only happen with RF, n= ot with
>> wired networks and
>>> are commonly overlooked
>>>
>>> 1. station A can hear station B and C but they cannot hear eac= h other
>>> 2. station A can hear station B but station B cannot hear stat= ion A 3.
>> station A can hear that station B is transmitting, but not with a strong
>> enough signal to
>>> decode the signal (yes in theory you can work around interfere= nce, but
>> in practice interference is still a real thing)
>>>
>>> David Lang
>>>
>>
>> To add to this, I think you need lots of different station devices= ,
>> different capabilities (/n, /ac, /ax, etc)
>> different numbers of spatial streams, and different distances from= the
>> AP.=C2=A0 From download queueing perspective, changing
>> the capabilities may be sufficient while keeping all stations at s= ame
>> distance.=C2=A0 This assumes you are not
>> actually testing the wifi rate-ctrl alg. itself, so different throughput
>> levels for different stations would be enough.
>>
>> So, a good station emulator setup (and/or pile of real stations) a= nd a few
>> RF chambers and
>> programmable attenuators and you can test that setup...
>>
>>=C2=A0 From upload perspective, I guess same setup would do the job= .
>> Queuing/fairness might depend a bit more on the
>> station devices, emulated or otherwise, but I guess a clever AP co= uld
>> enforce fairness in upstream direction
>> too by implementing per-sta queues.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ben
>>
>> --
>> Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com>
>> Candela Technologies Inc=C2=A0 http://www.candelatech.com
>>
>
>


This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with= it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use of = the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information th= at is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intend= ed recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the e-mail = to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed copy of i= t.


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