From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x52d.google.com (mail-ed1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 703BA3CB37 for ; Mon, 2 Aug 2021 23:23:18 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id d6so19559932edt.7 for ; Mon, 02 Aug 2021 20:23:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=broadcom.com; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=JSfQO+6lhz50W5Ya9V3u0N3NHtCdwmEHJVKh+KoB/Mc=; b=bb7qwk8dGOdn3rg/+KaGMFGaWqRp9Lc9Zb9IXAuN1bQ3N1aTqAzHow2U4Q1UujyJ8R QF54zEAU7FpnLnkYsgsoFuS46T4PJo+DdVxIFnPRUsdLOSDjMjghphhm8lXmmgh1lj18 9eQW528lgMLdQMGQqwZ/DKADKnao4uPc5n7GY= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=JSfQO+6lhz50W5Ya9V3u0N3NHtCdwmEHJVKh+KoB/Mc=; b=VMo2yLmP9MT2BQViXJPZZzbQh7gI40ct4gt9ROXHdnu+CUXG+fesbZIkVWgU9mWw9T dw+zUaoObL9x8ceYI4zQ5v0XrbQPzGFK2LFZhfu/Mh20etF20uOwLJZr+ZcJjDGAXDBs hxZsWXHI604kSiZSFsTzQMvDsKAEj8CT6s+llu//CBgqsaMaa2P6kURhzIKki4mcYPrg geM6oPwg1oHdxe3JItxgLJz5YbAt7jZOh62p4rtvRwGUOttvTrhx+olGJtpbnhTi7u1T 9V7Wngaty49lh5iTyNYlubDjews9WeQfBLBofUqKp5zMNcDBh3DE69L10xZHQNfHH5ad GK4g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533gTCWuZ1Azw2rzvVpt33A5++8izw9kImfOMn9yDRoO5cG5M+/q RWOFiNIvI53Znniv1lVHwtxT3NRNKVW6QV39qeS6jwjDGJMlcHCvGs6z8oRqsXzqDW8XslN/Y2l lrUKLHr+j+MSqKu14acT6wx6hHX7Rz7XAfg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzwhoVALGiRDgUHGuLM7AOLy216IUeQHs3TvbUUEdiKUbFQ/qdieT1J+MEb8g7ykUvIQE4tXbpFMd9C2DZZ3f4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6402:3481:: with SMTP id v1mr22106117edc.60.1627960997152; Mon, 02 Aug 2021 20:23:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1625188609.32718319@apps.rackspace.com> <989de0c1-e06c-cda9-ebe6-1f33df8a4c24@candelatech.com> <1625773080.94974089@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: From: Bob McMahon Date: Mon, 2 Aug 2021 20:23:06 -0700 Message-ID: To: David Lang Cc: Ben Greear , Luca Muscariello , Cake List , Make-Wifi-fast , Leonard Kleinrock , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, cerowrt-devel , bloat Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="000000000000f7877305c89f348a" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 07 Aug 2021 14:21:51 -0400 Subject: Re: [Starlink] [Cake] [Make-wifi-fast] [Cerowrt-devel] Due Aug 2: Internet Quality workshop CFP for the internet architecture board X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 03 Aug 2021 03:23:18 -0000 --000000000000f7877305c89f348a Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000f21a2905c89f346d" --000000000000f21a2905c89f346d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" The distance matrix defines signal attenuations/loss between pairs. It's straightforward to create a distance matrix that has hidden nodes because all "signal loss" between pairs is defined. Let's say a 120dB attenuation path will cause a node to be hidden as an example. A B C D A - 35 120 65 B - 65 65 C - 65 D - So in the above, AC are hidden from each other but nobody else is. It does assume symmetry between pairs but that's typically true. The RF device takes these distance matrices as settings and calculates the five branch tree values (as demonstrated in the video). There are limitations to solutions though but I've found those not to be an issue to date. I've been able to produce hidden nodes quite readily. Add the phase shifters and spatial stream powers can also be affected, but this isn't shown in this simple example. Bob On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 8:12 PM David Lang wrote: > I guess it depends on what you are intending to test. If you are not going > to > tinker with any of the over-the-air settings (including the number of > packets > transmitted in one aggregate), the details of what happen over the air > don't > matter much. > > But if you are going to be doing any tinkering with what is getting sent, > and > you ignore the hidden transmitter type problems, you will create a > solution that > seems to work really well in the lab and falls on it's face out in the > wild > where spectrum overload and hidden transmitters are the norm (at least in > urban > areas), not rare corner cases. > > you don't need to include them in every test, but you need to have a way > to > configure your lab to include them before you consider any > settings/algorithm > ready to try in the wild. > > David Lang > > On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, Bob McMahon wrote: > > > We find four nodes, a primary BSS and an adjunct one quite good for lots > of > > testing. The six nodes allows for a primary BSS and two adjacent ones. > We > > want to minimize complexity to necessary and sufficient. > > > > The challenge we find is having variability (e.g. montecarlos) that's > > reproducible and has relevant information. Basically, the distance > matrices > > have h-matrices as their elements. Our chips can provide these > h-matrices. > > > > The parts for solid state programmable attenuators and phase shifters > > aren't very expensive. A device that supports a five branch tree and 2x2 > > MIMO seems a very good starting point. > > > > Bob > > > > On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 4:55 PM Ben Greear > wrote: > > > >> On 8/2/21 4:16 PM, David Lang wrote: > >>> If you are going to setup a test environment for wifi, you need to > >> include the ability to make a fe cases that only happen with RF, not > with > >> wired networks and > >>> are commonly overlooked > >>> > >>> 1. station A can hear station B and C but they cannot hear each other > >>> 2. station A can hear station B but station B cannot hear station A 3. > >> station A can hear that station B is transmitting, but not with a strong > >> enough signal to > >>> decode the signal (yes in theory you can work around interference, but > >> in practice interference is still a real thing) > >>> > >>> David Lang > >>> > >> > >> To add to this, I think you need lots of different station devices, > >> different capabilities (/n, /ac, /ax, etc) > >> different numbers of spatial streams, and different distances from the > >> AP. From download queueing perspective, changing > >> the capabilities may be sufficient while keeping all stations at same > >> distance. This assumes you are not > >> actually testing the wifi rate-ctrl alg. itself, so different throughput > >> levels for different stations would be enough. > >> > >> So, a good station emulator setup (and/or pile of real stations) and a > few > >> RF chambers and > >> programmable attenuators and you can test that setup... > >> > >> From upload perspective, I guess same setup would do the job. > >> Queuing/fairness might depend a bit more on the > >> station devices, emulated or otherwise, but I guess a clever AP could > >> enforce fairness in upstream direction > >> too by implementing per-sta queues. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Ben > >> > >> -- > >> Ben Greear > >> Candela Technologies Inc http://www.candelatech.com > >> > > > > > -- This electronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it, or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the intended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distributing, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed copy of it. --000000000000f21a2905c89f346d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The distance matrix defines signal attenuations/loss betwe= en pairs.=C2=A0 It's straightforward to create a distance matrix that h= as hidden nodes because all "signal=C2=A0 loss"=C2=A0between=C2= =A0pairs is defined.=C2=A0 Let's say a 120dB attenuation path will caus= e a node to be hidden as an example.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0A=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 B=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0C=C2=A0 =C2=A0 D=C2=A0
A=C2=A0 = =C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A035=C2=A0 =C2=A0120=C2=A0 =C2=A065
B=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 65=C2=A0 =C2=A065
C= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A065
D=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0-

So in the above, AC are h= idden from each other=C2=A0but nobody else is. It does assume symmetry betw= een=C2=A0pairs but that's typically true.

The RF device takes th= ese distance matrices=C2=A0as settings and calculates the five branch tree = values (as demonstrated in the video). There are limitations=C2=A0to soluti= ons=C2=A0though but I've found those not to be an issue to date. I'= ve been able to produce hidden nodes quite readily. Add the phase shifters= =C2=A0and spatial stream powers can also be affected, but this isn't sh= own in this simple example.

Bob

On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 8:12 PM = David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote= :
I guess it dep= ends on what you are intending to test. If you are not going to
tinker with any of the over-the-air settings (including the number of packe= ts
transmitted in one aggregate), the details of what happen over the air don&= #39;t
matter much.

But if you are going to be doing any tinkering with what is getting sent, a= nd
you ignore the hidden transmitter type problems, you will create a solution= that
seems to work really well in the lab and falls on it's face out in the = wild
where spectrum overload and hidden transmitters are the norm (at least in u= rban
areas), not rare corner cases.

you don't need to include them in every test, but you need to have a wa= y to
configure your lab to include them before you consider any settings/algorit= hm
ready to try in the wild.

David Lang

On Mon, 2 Aug 2021, Bob McMahon wrote:

> We find four nodes, a primary BSS and an adjunct one quite good for lo= ts of
> testing.=C2=A0 The six nodes allows for a primary BSS and two adjacent= ones. We
> want to minimize complexity to necessary and sufficient.
>
> The challenge we find is having variability (e.g. montecarlos) that= 9;s
> reproducible and has relevant information. Basically, the distance mat= rices
> have h-matrices as their elements. Our chips can provide these h-matri= ces.
>
> The parts for solid state programmable attenuators and phase shifters<= br> > aren't very expensive. A device that supports a five branch tree a= nd 2x2
> MIMO seems a very good starting point.
>
> Bob
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2021 at 4:55 PM Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com> wrote:=
>
>> On 8/2/21 4:16 PM, David Lang wrote:
>>> If you are going to setup a test environment for wifi, you nee= d to
>> include the ability to make a fe cases that only happen with RF, n= ot with
>> wired networks and
>>> are commonly overlooked
>>>
>>> 1. station A can hear station B and C but they cannot hear eac= h other
>>> 2. station A can hear station B but station B cannot hear stat= ion A 3.
>> station A can hear that station B is transmitting, but not with a = strong
>> enough signal to
>>> decode the signal (yes in theory you can work around interfere= nce, but
>> in practice interference is still a real thing)
>>>
>>> David Lang
>>>
>>
>> To add to this, I think you need lots of different station devices= ,
>> different capabilities (/n, /ac, /ax, etc)
>> different numbers of spatial streams, and different distances from= the
>> AP.=C2=A0 From download queueing perspective, changing
>> the capabilities may be sufficient while keeping all stations at s= ame
>> distance.=C2=A0 This assumes you are not
>> actually testing the wifi rate-ctrl alg. itself, so different thro= ughput
>> levels for different stations would be enough.
>>
>> So, a good station emulator setup (and/or pile of real stations) a= nd a few
>> RF chambers and
>> programmable attenuators and you can test that setup...
>>
>>=C2=A0 From upload perspective, I guess same setup would do the job= .
>> Queuing/fairness might depend a bit more on the
>> station devices, emulated or otherwise, but I guess a clever AP co= uld
>> enforce fairness in upstream direction
>> too by implementing per-sta queues.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ben
>>
>> --
>> Ben Greear <greearb@candelatech.com>
>> Candela Technologies Inc=C2=A0 http://www.candelatech.com
>>
>
>

This ele= ctronic communication and the information and any files transmitted with it= , or attached to it, are confidential and are intended solely for the use o= f the individual or entity to whom it is addressed and may contain informat= ion that is confidential, legally privileged, protected by privacy laws, or= otherwise restricted from disclosure to anyone else. If you are not the in= tended recipient or the person responsible for delivering the e-mail to the= intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, copying, distrib= uting, dissemination, forwarding, printing, or copying of this e-mail is st= rictly prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please return the = e-mail to the sender, delete it from your computer, and destroy any printed= copy of it. --000000000000f21a2905c89f346d-- --000000000000f7877305c89f348a Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIQagYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIQWzCCEFcCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0BBwGg gg3BMIIFDTCCA/WgAwIBAgIQeEqpED+lv77edQixNJMdADANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADBMMSAwHgYD VQQLExdHbG9iYWxTaWduIFJvb3QgQ0EgLSBSMzETMBEGA1UEChMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjETMBEGA1UE AxMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjAeFw0yMDA5MTYwMDAwMDBaFw0yODA5MTYwMDAwMDBaMFsxCzAJBgNVBAYT AkJFMRkwFwYDVQQKExBHbG9iYWxTaWduIG52LXNhMTEwLwYDVQQDEyhHbG9iYWxTaWduIEdDQyBS MyBQZXJzb25hbFNpZ24gMiBDQSAyMDIwMIIBIjANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQEFAAOCAQ8AMIIBCgKCAQEA vbCmXCcsbZ/a0fRIQMBxp4gJnnyeneFYpEtNydrZZ+GeKSMdHiDgXD1UnRSIudKo+moQ6YlCOu4t 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