From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=; dkim=fail; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=fail (Used From Domain Record) header.from=uvic.ca policy.dmarc=none Received: from mail-yw1-f180.google.com (mail-yw1-f180.google.com [209.85.128.180]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7113693587E for ; Sat, 08 Nov 2025 18:30:50 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail-yw1-f180.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-7868b7b90b8so16660847b3.1 for ; Sat, 08 Nov 2025 09:30:49 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1762623049; x=1763227849; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-gg:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=3TXLdwqesTvk2tyk3P3TQsB41pOYHL4yIXg4YAbXEw4=; b=uuG+r07aPqpZgkse9zd/WuZ5BYIkTgEkO0CkxntaQyuckitkG6EaLzFFTVMmn618CZ NZxcytGlB2wcE2ikJb8ZvCp2dll9dqEFNfq5o/gOZxOukOfsFJTCfd5NkpacPU+kJXjq FN8oB2sjAF+UAFy2gy9bKGH0xdQn4CkYzZS+XV+lVMABQhltjMX6qOF9n//8tDM9yRV6 5+/vvnZLRtO/76L/DztZn7Pvrfxt+RssA6nMgjXKUcrvGMtxJtOs6R5KLiarkQ+BnJkK lU5+kHzvOmMfEIXoXU3rpwttNesklEDSu9+HeHiW64ml1pVMK2slD0dd5v2FAyEsB2aA iLvw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzqVytszd+gI+Cbfk4jf601fXtFQoSjXo/MC6yyuvQocVjmAigr p6dQ3vBor9cabrxZxugGEqXsnHEJPgy7INElEtV0gN7NOU6zJi75ad+2pU2UhvPYn0RxgIsuOoa BElJNs9s5h1sOIEaobPE85YEVj/dmuFs= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncscKfpcrUG6gmtDgSGt7fb9JQJBC9RyMJVk0zHQAz0xLwolRexBbs32ZKirfc9 lACdZC9VWQNBJ6ui8OMpg8UGDTVd6H+XckbV3+3ThqWflzJ9X/t5cfo1RDfZkb1OMvKui07bVNL 5PgpfaHN9lu7QqQrPky3Dk1H7n8g9zqmH/OxxM1kmiwOJHkox0vgrTOMGuy9BH8nH5YjHPwtp2Q ydNHIZ21aKKFLypUJfxdurF2Rek4cG81FAgcwD9OOZDOan3bv7/+ngzPhsU X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGibIjAgkvuwly2pLxJe1d2CI3YBtuuuWLX0yZT6Y3akWZc+UyDR8WYKlQ8+fOzK9/nNWU8HA8Gn4H0a589NMQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:45c9:b0:786:7aaa:a04f with SMTP id 00721157ae682-787d536368bmr31383667b3.8.1762623048528; Sat, 08 Nov 2025 09:30:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <176254173597.1347.15997824594759319437@gauss> In-Reply-To: From: J Pan Date: Sat, 8 Nov 2025 09:30:37 -0800 X-Gm-Features: AWmQ_bm9TsbPjvY9JveUyMAjwoNDrH-7InkUBMcriKrR64jltVtc9i74QWY8p3s Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?Q?David_Fern=C3=A1ndez?= Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: LBWYWJXIZCEGIRYL5TQT5NXLBKI72YWA X-Message-ID-Hash: LBWYWJXIZCEGIRYL5TQT5NXLBKI72YWA X-MailFrom: panatuvicdotca@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Starlink] Re: Starlink Digest, Vol 55, Issue 3 List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: yes, end-to-end congestion control was an add-on to tcp flow and error control, and at that time, packet loss was the only reliable congestion signal without router collaboration, and the legacy stays. from the experience of tuning tcp on cellular networks, making the link layer more reliable is "the way", at the cost of more buffers and latency. but now physical, link and network layer have more info for the transport layer to make the right decision, e.g., starlink handovers at 12th, 27th, 42nd and 57th second of every minute with delay spike and losses -- J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM), Pan@UVic.CA, Web.UVic.CA/~pa= n On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 2:51=E2=80=AFPM David Fern=C3=A1ndez via Starlink wrote: > > Thanks for sharing this Frank. > > In slide 3, I think that another effect not to be missed is packet losses > due to errors, which could be analogous to pipe leaks. Sometimes, it > happens that they are not negligible, in some cases with wireless links, > mainly, but it could happen too in DSL. I remember that I had a DSL line = in > which the router had the option to disable interleaving, warning that you > could get more errors, bad for watching video, they were saying, but > reduced latency (good for videogames). When packet losses due to errors a= re > misinterpreted as congestion by the transport protocols, the result is al= so > a band quality of experience. > > Regards, > > David > > Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2025 11:53:44 +0100 > > From: Frantisek Borsik > > Subject: [Starlink] Re: [LibreQoS] Re: Keynote: QoE/QoS - Bandwidth Is > > A Lie! at WISPAPALOOZA 2025 (October 16) > > To: Cake List , bloat > > , codel@lists.bufferbloat.n= et, > > Jeremy Austin via Rpm , libreqos > > , Dave Taht via Starlink > > , l4s-discuss@ietf.org > > Message-ID: > > > uhiQPd3KOg@mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"UTF-8" > > > > Hello to all, > > > > Recording of our QoE/QoS panel discussion is out! It was really great a= nd > > believe you will like it: > > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DT1VET0VYQ6c > > > > We have touch bandwidth, L4S, Starlink and more. > > > > Here are the slides with additional reading: > > > > https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1ML0I3Av3DCtQDiP8Djr_YGH2r4-UDZP= 25VEk-xyJcZE/edit?slide=3Did.p#slide=3Did.p > > > > We hope to continue this conversation into more practical, demo-like > > environment of sort, that we can see at IETF Hackathon and used to see = in > > the early WISPA event days, with Animal Farm. > > > > > > All the best, > > > > Frank > > > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > > > > *In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: *1965-2025 > > > > https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ > > > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 1, 2025 at 11:32=E2=80=AFPM Frantisek Borsik < > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > > > Let's say that I love it, channeling my inner Dave Taht. But there we= re a > > > couple of voices asking if I won't consider to change it a bit, to be > > "less > > > hostile" to our "bandwidth is king!" friends...and I was trying, but = this > > > was really sticky and I'm happy that it stayed this way. > > > > > > > > > All the best, > > > > > > Frank > > > > > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > > > > > > > *In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: *1965-2025 > > > > > > https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ > > > > > > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > > > > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > > > > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > > > > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > > > > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Oct 1, 2025 at 9:25=E2=80=AFPM dan wrot= e: > > > > > >> I actually really like the title ;) > > >> > > >> It's that most of the time people are told they need more bandwidth = to > > >> solve a problem, when they really need lower latency and jitter. So= the > > >> vast majority of the time 'more bandwidth' as a solution really is a > > lie. > > >> > > >> On Tue, Sep 30, 2025 at 2:47=E2=80=AFPM Frantisek Borsik via LibreQo= S < > > >> libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > >> > > >>> Thanks, Jim. Well, true that - but I wanted to do it either way, > > because > > >>> of > > >>> our dear Dave and - as a conversation starter. > > >>> As @Jason Livingood said - "Bandwidth= is > > >>> dead. Long live latency." > > >>> > > >>> > > https://pulse.internetsociety.org/blog/bandwidth-is-dead-long-live-late= ncy > > >>> > > >>> I will do my best to get the audio/video right and to share it with= you > > >>> all. > > >>> > > >>> PS: Sending you separate email. > > >>> > > >>> All the best, > > >>> > > >>> Frank > > >>> > > >>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> *In loving memory of Dave T=C3=A4ht: *1965-2025 > > >>> > > >>> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > >>> > > >>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > >>> > > >>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > >>> > > >>> Skype: casioa5302ca > > >>> > > >>> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Tue, Sep 30, 2025 at 10:25=E2=80=AFPM James Forster < > > jim@connectivitycap.com> > > >>> wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > Wow, that=E2=80=99s fantastic, Frantisek! Great work making this= happen. > > >>> > > > >>> > These sort of titles aren=E2=80=99t my favorite. I think I unders= tand the > > >>> > sentiment but find the issues more nuanced than that. :-) > > >>> > > > >>> > If you can get clear audio, not much quality is needed for panels= and > > >>> > talking beads. Best would be a feed right into an iPhone/androi= d. > > >>> > > > >>> > Jim > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> LibreQoS mailing list -- libreqos@lists.bufferbloat.net > > >>> To unsubscribe send an email to libreqos-leave@lists.bufferbloat.ne= t > > >>> > > >> > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net