From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=; dkim=fail; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=fail (Used From Domain Record) header.from=uvic.ca policy.dmarc=none Received: from mail-yw1-f171.google.com (mail-yw1-f171.google.com [209.85.128.171]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D94EE6F07FA for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2025 20:22:05 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail-yw1-f171.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-74f6974175dso20043337b3.3 for ; Thu, 25 Sep 2025 11:22:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1758824524; x=1759429324; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=ul9DJM5Bp4p8jKq1ctpeG+SQb9UcW/yOWvnNCgQCE6s=; b=Wjg0FC3WnQ8DHYClDmIvO6xVzsnRbpKNryDaH0U0pTKVUIIfdaGV6oxeDYbDYPQGcx NSjYF6E5NkiF1IdWLQbA96otbw7QX30qCNTuwqKtvR5GyS/zIgfW44xbun41y30+Pnzx 5T35dU0XOdYcfdQak5gopHMqtf5+xiw4T5no+ztxNZGDNZIaY/AAfCMjgPgOS5aS86lo ZsxyrD91Yfy8FkbeiJFqgJya7QTTDkP2lifQODFuuP7E2rzj9ZRUkxTwhC1a/3RYABKF 4ftEJMucSeaUREKz2rfsQoPr7m/1rKjRci9/70/LyDmfW+KGM3Kqf4QPIaYltIFhQmKf dwCA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yy27Pmf9mNaCerAROUZkDqzLrtJh9F/5c+wo9NeDK4QQlqXsdbX cean/fUaTsH/ZaqvBkJAntQQ/ATtSkwCzMt5DF5fgSk4BDIaRCCZCfj9CzLaa1bhVALYl3Bwfcf pQjrD3AS05cRchv1LMxUyhMiZHFFVop6TeQ== X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncu+RrcDR4AuAtxUq8e76JUXg7XNUAb0KHVm7ylXPfux/IX+sL3wT7LbTTRVgYV Yii1oL0/hdAkPMQme9R/JPY8VWaYGnD5C9qwq2WRUmr6bafEa32+ku3fHIG1xuR4OY6e3qVhxFG siK8pjzcJHNwqPAdgPHEGw64BL6VAGUhQGKwLZ9x7ls0S7ej8HK21qNADI9KLLFU9PxH+tVnkt8 bMRAu7Zc+F+x3MhFw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHvKAuiCQxXokUPvzpscLEED4h7zzeYxEwoup8h2qaR2Ct/GdyEjMYtiCWL06HHRPa0RC4M2FDbax+7RMOvMYY= X-Received: by 2002:a05:690e:25f1:b0:635:4ecc:fc29 with SMTP id 956f58d0204a3-6361a85d4e4mr2966433d50.49.1758824523979; Thu, 25 Sep 2025 11:22:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <175876550514.1555.8294777204829819629@gauss> <30473.1758822310@obiwan.sandelman.ca> In-Reply-To: <30473.1758822310@obiwan.sandelman.ca> From: J Pan Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2025 11:21:52 -0700 X-Gm-Features: AS18NWDr09ufqHXN52a4_AhvjC1Z0e86OKIZo7jA2JJnMWSZ_Z22WhtAHV8i3sU Message-ID: To: Michael Richardson Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: H36GLNPOTXJZYPWDD5MZ2PV4SLZOXQAG X-Message-ID-Hash: H36GLNPOTXJZYPWDD5MZ2PV4SLZOXQAG X-MailFrom: panatuvicdotca@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Starlink] Re: Starlink looking less niche as its retail presence expands List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Thanks Michael for attending my talk. my slides are at http://tinyurl.com/leosatnet and we are looking for hosts around the world to help us http://tinyurl.com/starlinkuser . cheers. -j -- J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM), Pan@UVic.CA, Web.UVic.CA/~pa= n On Thu, Sep 25, 2025 at 10:45=E2=80=AFAM Michael Richardson via Starlink wrote: > > {resending without signature, since new list can't cope with attachments = yet} > > Luis A. Cornejo via Starlink wrote: > > Since Starlink controls all the wireless parts of their system. Doe= s > > anybody here know what they could do to mitigate the limits of > > classical wireless comms, like Shannon-Hartley Capacity Theorem or = the > > interference? > > I don't know much about this part. > I am kinda hijacking this thread, but I think there is a connection. > Dr.Pan gave a talk about Starlink measurements last week in Ottawa. > (The time slot was way too short. Very nice talk) > > I was thinking about the many places where bandwidth can go up and down, = both > for Starlink's various mis-attachment situations, but also for OneWeb's P= olar > orbit mechanism. (I didn't know it was doing that). > And just getting redirected to a different downlink/base-station, and the= n > have to cross over Starlink's internal network to the same exit point. > (Too bad MobileIP never took off) > > I think the only thing worse than bufferbloat is varying bandwidth rates. > That's because the only way to use that bandwidth is to introduce bufferb= loat :-) > It was the cablemodem burst mechanism that clued Jim into bufferbloat. > > So my related question is, if they could mitigate, they likely can't do i= t > continuously, so things will up/down. The IETF now has a SCONE WG, with = the > aim of inserting signals into QUIC traffic about bandwidth available. > Yes, meddling by middle boxes. Ick. > > Could Starlink even do this given the lack of L3 processing along the > entire link? At least according to Dr. Pan's diagrams. > (An L2 hop could well mess with packets too). > Ideally, one or more of the satellites involved in the ISL would > know what the current bandwidth to a given terminal is, and could inform = the > end system. > > The two questions: > 1. are the limits/conditions stable enough for long enough that the avail= able > bandwidth could be communicated back to the uplink? > > 2. assuming, yes, what would the best place to do the SCONE marking? > > >> Let's recap: Spectrum's boxed in, and power is boxed in. That impo= ses > >> a hard limit on total capacity (look up the Shannon-Hartley Capaci= ty > >> Theorem if you don't believe me). This capacity is all that Starli= nk > >> has to share among its users in a cell. No matter how many satelli= tes > >> they launch or how big the rocket. Add more users in a cell, and t= he > >> capacity per user there has to go down. Law of nature. > > And users will need to know what they have on a minute-by-minute basis so > that they avoid screwing themselves, let alone their neighbours. > Packets going up the link, then being dropped, is just wasted. > > ps: > I have been watching: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=3DPL-_93BVApb= 58SXL-BCv4rVHL-8GuC2WGb > where they have powered up 50+ year old Apollo Transponders. > > -- > ] Never tell me the odds! | ipv6 mesh netwo= rks [ > ] Michael Richardson, Sandelman Software Works | IoT architec= t [ > ] mcr@sandelman.ca http://www.sandelman.ca/ | ruby on rails= [ > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net