From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=; dkim=fail; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=fail (Used From Domain Record) header.from=uvic.ca policy.dmarc=none Received: from mail-yw1-f182.google.com (mail-yw1-f182.google.com [209.85.128.182]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A749A8821C1 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 2025 21:03:33 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail-yw1-f182.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-7814273415cso14718167b3.1 for ; Thu, 30 Oct 2025 13:03:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1761854612; x=1762459412; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=RoWlfY317FWuohN0IBK2g7KRjETB8sdlrzJQ7Chd62c=; b=kPQvYICSURs9o4O/Cqo+P39tSQQ4cS5zFIqo4DscHYInZW3cdMcAQ5pXBQevOer5G+ z17AQo0yoFht/gdZMc1wcvXuFnWT1nlFt/vMruNEKFOZgckLh5HdEU14PPzTtWraZIws 6wsgXDM2gXLWhO33Ip+URAeiTXEYsUyWUstvm/+2zNtueQg/Nh1PAw6/6ghrEH6KRRrQ z2ON1ig4IJFUgggvP+JeKvRXMi8rVFHeGfxYXxfJxfwwQN+3PYMJ96NdGG0gcWIAt4Jv uGiI4e/52lWme64tIOvJGlO7Slv2kQT1/s9YzgpfCMxRimVRAb1K3Ob9IJb9YHvcqgKc pbLQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXkGerrpLniStYFiQvqM5l4FczouprW+cRNJP/3N+qkuI7l8DsHsWuEhTVFbxiBsdZmfAiVGxm6RA==@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxLcyCZqW63JrL3ud90XQrkoyppVcE3dC8nfy/ZGEmFqpzjbL0I 3bMfmsaKD8dioXSjMiGLPr2zX6kWx80BYCNDa/ZTQVEEejYNwhT96PLtakRws9treMSaWXUBQC8 pgYiCTUD/wXXedTP7A3ktHScHRjWLlnE= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsaaLwFeSPxdltJUXmneVLaN3WR8GVYDeujeNCRlWLe50z8rZodxGcgJYL0ZSy P3mgviIiXRh/MOnQlK/G+DN5O/5jZVt2BlIG0iptrNupMAytuhzyTB/RNvBI1dwCQgqWbFEClsa 0nafCXEy8UO0pFjKvzBcDE9kFUu4sdlEFqgj5Yqi3qDIqeFQHowJfES4RIPiFNpX6JYnilhupVR 1xq0p1Rvnghfs1N495J06KiP80oFEDb4SO6FGDgDay9wDsRuHT/uxW3mjB9XxdDUt2x2ms= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGqEihdS/ZhbC3ilOiTR+Pqi4oxPZBCtvfaXxzCQUwTvgwAe8bFEwKcX7x3MSfIFxWuF3krM9tGzGsqI49fS1U= X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:46c9:b0:780:feef:dfee with SMTP id 00721157ae682-786483d3efemr8721297b3.7.1761854611526; Thu, 30 Oct 2025 13:03:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4a2a8845-3830-4a8c-93e6-cebebd35e5de@auckland.ac.nz> <18172.1761751760@obiwan.sandelman.ca> <2bc140ff-7195-44d3-a6e0-0bb856d401d0@auckland.ac.nz> <524EA57B-85E2-4C30-A420-F8A47B86548B@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <524EA57B-85E2-4C30-A420-F8A47B86548B@gmail.com> From: J Pan Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2025 13:03:20 -0700 X-Gm-Features: AWmQ_blrAzlGNnqikS1vnhXeZN3S53OvS7cInu6mRzzZ4MTCrI8_JQ4Unl7XaHA Message-ID: To: Spencer Sevilla Cc: Ulrich Speidel , Michael Richardson , Dave Taht via Starlink Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: TQTG35TUHTY77E6LSY6FL4EETSAYUHQJ X-Message-ID-Hash: TQTG35TUHTY77E6LSY6FL4EETSAYUHQJ X-MailFrom: panatuvicdotca@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Starlink] Re: Starlink direct-to-device in NZ List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: yes, kddi has been doing this (using starlink for cellular backhaul) on remote islands in japan for a while https://news.kddi.com/kddi/corporate/english/newsrelease/2022/12/01/6415.ht= ml -- J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM), Pan@UVic.CA, Web.UVic.CA/~pa= n On Thu, Oct 30, 2025 at 12:31=E2=80=AFPM Spencer Sevilla via Starlink wrote: > > > So by running D2C, they're essentially throwing an expensive resource a= t an application with fairly limited earnings potential. > > > > But hey, it's great if all you need is TXT on a hike. > > I don=E2=80=99t know a ton about the business relationship between Starli= nk and OneNZ (or T-Mobile here in the States) but to be honest this is how = I've always viewed any of the direct-to-mobile Starlink services. Can=E2=80= =99t imagine it being worth the effort on its own, but makes more sense to = me as a super-low-bandwidth supplement for texting/calling, especially in a= n emergency context. > > Much more interesting, IMO, is targeted coverage of higher-density remote= areas (e.g. small towns/villages/farms or highways) using Starlink to back= haul a cell tower. I assume some networks are doing that, but it=E2=80=99s = hard to find good information online as the first case tends to crowd out t= he results. > > > On Oct 29, 2025, at 13:28, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink wrote: > > > > On 30/10/2025 4:29 am, Michael Richardson wrote: > >> Ulrich Speidel via Starlink wrote: > >> > In July 2025, One NZ extended the service to phones on prepay pl= ans, > >> > including the plan I'm on ... as long as I'd have an eligible ph= one. > >> Is your phone eligible because it lacks the right radios, or because i= t's not > >> blessed? > > I've no idea, but I suspect that a range of cheaper phones (mine does 3= G/4G/5G) have lower sensitivity radios than the higher end devices (read: e= levated noise floors due to proximity to heat generating components in the = phone, smaller antenna size, conductors carrying RF that aren't gold-plated= , coarser signal processing, interference from processing chips in the phon= e etc.). > >> My experience with NZ consists of changing planes in Auckland in 2024. > >> (And that's my own time to the southern hemisphere). > > That's how I first got here so you're in good company ;-) > >> I don't know how much > >> of NZ is unserved by 3G/4G. It sounds to be that the One NZ terrestia= l > >> network coverage is pretty good? > > > > Basically, yes. The three mobile carriers here cover - at least to TXT = quality - most places where people would normally be. Rural locations used = to be an issue until the government knocked heads together and forced the t= hree carriers to found a common subsidiary, the Rural Connectivity Group (R= CG), to set up cell sites in rural areas on which the three carriers would = be virtual tenants. The downside of this of course is that when these go do= wn, so do all three networks, as we had ample opportunity to witness during= Cyclone Gabrielle a couple of years ago. There is also pretty good coastal= coverage for boaties from the terrestrial network, although the Starlink-b= ased service reaches further out. > > > > The remaining "uncovered" area still makes up around 40% of the land su= rface according to One NZ, but these are generally places where there are e= xtremely few people. Much is bush / forest and where there is remote farmla= nd, the locals usually have land mobile / CB radios to communicate. > > > >> > >> Canada has similiar concentrations of coverage, with most of the small= er > >> operators having big-city-only coverage. Many smaller towns can have > >> effective single suppliers (Yes, there is a duopoly. But some towns h= ave > >> very few towers from the "other") > > Canada is similar in many respects but has a much larger land area and = lower population density over much of it. > >> > >> What I'd want is a $4/day-pass for when I go hiking. I don't think cu= rrent > >> emergency call support covers emergency txt. Is there even spec for t= xt to > >> 911, I don't know. It would, I think be tolerant of much lower bandwi= dth. > >> A day-pass could be "messaging" only, like the airlines "free" wifi le= vel. > > ... which is pretty much what you'd get here (provided you subscribed t= o the more expensive basic prepay package). > >> > >> > They're also working on getting the data service working. Which = will support > >> > a limited number of mostly messaging apps only by the looks of i= t. Different > >> > flavour of TXT I suppose. > >> > >> I'm not sure why this is difficult; if I were asked to implement I'd j= ust > >> block a bunch of well-known streaming end-points on day one. Yes, blo= cking > >> youtube blocks all sorts of other google services. I'd fix that day t= wo > >> as I got bandwidth based caps/throttling implemented. > > > > This isn't a networking problem predominantly, but an RF engineering on= e. Essentially, your classical cellphone network works on the premise that = you can serve more users by bringing the base stations closer to them, whic= h allows (a) lower power use and (b) conserves their battery. The lower pow= er use then allows you to re-use your frequencies further down the road. > > > > This alone implies that when your "cell tower" is many hundred of km aw= ay, this goes against the grain of the cell system design philosophy. You n= ow need more power (or larger antennas) and re-using your frequencies isn't= all that easy anymore. You can't put large antennas on people's phones, so= the only place to put them is in space. > > > > But wait, it gets worse. Frequency matters. > > > > Normal Starlink downlinks to DIshy users on Ku band frequencies. That's= between 10,700 MHz and 12,700 MHz (note also that's a 2 GHz bandwidth). Fo= r the Starlink cell service, One NZ gets them to use 1800 MHz in what is no= w a 15 MHz bandwidth (https://www.linkedin.com/posts/richardhaas99_new-new-= zealand-mobile-operator-one-has-activity-7358493392294580225-NVsr/). That's= at least a factor of 6 in terms of frequency. > > > > Consider an RF communication system with fixed physical dimensions (ant= enna sizes, distance between transmitter and receiver) and a fixed transmit= power. Assume for a moment that you can make this use any frequency you l= ike (i.e., ignore antenna resonances, transmitter/receiver tuning etc.). Th= e received power that you will then have available at your receiver is prop= ortional to the square of the transmit frequency. This gives Ku band a 6*6= =3D36 fold advantage over the cell band, and that's before you start lookin= g at the bandwidth. > > > > Moreover, the higher your frequency, the more directional your antennas= become. That is, Starlink has a much easier time projecting a Ku band beam= at a location than a cell signal. And it sure looks like they're strugglin= g a bit with the former, even with Ku band cells much larger than your typi= cal mobile phone cell. And that's with you pointing your Dishy at the sky a= s instructed rather than having it at the bottom of your gym bag. So your c= ell phone signal from space isn't exactly laser pointer material, and getti= ng the tiny device in your pocket to hit just the satellite you're meant to= communicate with is an uphill struggle at the best of times. > > > > So, basically, fitting data in next to TXT isn't trivial. > > > > For One NZ and their colleagues at T-Mobile etc. overseas, this means t= hat once they earmark a cell phone frequency for satellite use, they can't = really use it on the ground anymore because a satellite using it is now goi= ng to be "heard" all over the place and not just where the user is. Neither= can they re-use that frequency in multiple locations all that easily. Read= : Commit a frequency for satellite use in the northern North Island and you= can't - in all probability - use it anywhere in Auckland. Engineering asid= e, they now face the extra problem that ... spectrum is expensive. In 2021,= that cost NZ$720,000 per MHz (https://www.rsm.govt.nz/about/news-and-updat= es/renewal-of-management-rights-in-the-1800-mhz-and-2100-mhz-bands). So tha= t 15 MHz band for D2C would have cost One NZ just upwards of US$6M. > > > > > > > >> > > -- > > **************************************************************** > > Dr. Ulrich Speidel > > > > School of Computer Science > > > > Room 303S.594 (City Campus) > > > > The University of Auckland > > u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz > > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ > > **************************************************************** > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list -- starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > To unsubscribe send an email to starlink-leave@lists.bufferbloat.net