From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Authentication-Results: mail.toke.dk; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=; dkim=fail; arc=none (Message is not ARC signed); dmarc=fail (Used From Domain Record) header.from=uvic.ca policy.dmarc=none Received: from mail-yw1-f181.google.com (mail-yw1-f181.google.com [209.85.128.181]) by mail.toke.dk (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9294F92FCA1 for ; Fri, 07 Nov 2025 20:50:38 +0100 (CET) Received: by mail-yw1-f181.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-71d71bcac45so11210567b3.0 for ; Fri, 07 Nov 2025 11:50:38 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1762545037; x=1763149837; h=content-transfer-encoding:cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from :in-reply-to:references:mime-version:x-gm-gg:x-gm-message-state:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=zHJP08ZdeoXLYX9ikeHF1zSsI/MTMcPBVICycIuGhl4=; b=fQSKv0RSTFVIUFP/RZUpFjqORm4/anawbbTMNEeYkKXTqVqx7pNGTfQ7KcoVyqKIpy zdgQoNMFRFQgFe/khH+vgH4uX3Rt0NUFZHP1+iixANBwf4V98eJKEDKmPN5jWRCTwHpm 5p9KGVVJNkjTAMGK/O/Wrp/3jWry+xm1cX+Y2kwYG70fmD6qGzqytk+OYwRcjctNlK52 PJ0kFy3YFASaoT7+RlYn+Ycv8O/hUITTkHiwVAO+kTKPGaS9Z99FbGx9dvrzllqNyMX0 zNxy8bKTweQVNmYEa/8vpVHlrtVDPPpMCvjCz1zFLnoesdQnTst2iS/RvCacXkUhkI98 J9EA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCWvhZKs4kUL5tlhr6IIwocwwqEtxZBvGjaOJOpDX2gxVB0PhzZFQ8Kv2FUaLfvBmd5jUwEULsxWIA==@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxZCZGr6tMUokx7/DQcr3P/DWvFdlXzZaYv4y/BKiap2nbwErhu Xr1STjK8Gqw2NEJn+Vn8G6hyMFumt1ZuT+rsIrnKXTXyIDYiRtn69VPp3fLuOcxCPz5JBsuuOLv uaTwtYne7RkOlHyzxZgwIyut7bICzNl8= X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctLVz5DYdbe3L8DX/P5VQkrfOFFTW4HqSbniJhQ7yGWHPMVdb9GbFQRkeN3uFO CV5Bwy4pT+gPcDaimC6yQZ3Y3l2iAy433sz+BH7ZJMnrhTaM7/LEKlvE4qqOIr3zkzykfE5UOkC THdHWwFe2a9fWwMEHVss+ptoDFm4C9hHPsgiuuKz745gihuBd8e5U93vu41UO3QySjcySVZJ44R 7lFKaxmUFsBIiTR5Pso6GVSvlZCK/ZyWoS1VSIn+R+ba4fZbt/86rCZDM6fLOP84S77El4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IH4C/Qdd70BfqR0kO+nfwmIY/L+/jDD2/ls/Bc3RoewS4ipKnEoApmuB12F1Bzt0WVpswP3TUATh5zHBnoFnoU= X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:2e93:b0:786:758e:d7c5 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-787d543c45cmr4046067b3.42.1762545036782; Fri, 07 Nov 2025 11:50:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9390D9DA-3C77-429F-A41D-E0FECD52FF06@connectivitycap.com> <2036296F-1567-4B66-BD8C-3AB49EBD5AA3@connectivitycap.com> <3934C9BE-EED5-4DF7-9451-E438E0FEFE3E@connectivitycap.com> In-Reply-To: <3934C9BE-EED5-4DF7-9451-E438E0FEFE3E@connectivitycap.com> From: J Pan Date: Fri, 7 Nov 2025 11:50:25 -0800 X-Gm-Features: AWmQ_bk02yy0POPfWJ-hf7UB-4HUz3MZGuKmOX6lEX_LgNjnxA5TvUWkNVY9mVU Message-ID: To: Jim Forster Cc: Frantisek Borsik , Cake List , bloat , codel@lists.bufferbloat.net, libreqos , l4s-discuss@ietf.org, starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-ID-Hash: CRXT6A7WBSI62KO5REZE7XJYZVP3R6TK X-Message-ID-Hash: CRXT6A7WBSI62KO5REZE7XJYZVP3R6TK X-MailFrom: panatuvicdotca@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; loop; banned-address; emergency; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.10 Precedence: list Subject: [Starlink] Re: [LibreQoS] Re: Keynote: QoE/QoS - Bandwidth Is A Lie! at WISPAPALOOZA 2025 (October 16) List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: marketing is even worse. some claim 200mbps because 150mbps down and 50mbps up at peak data rate. of course, this is not the only problem in telecom, but likely the worst nevertheless, there are stats such as 10% inflation for food and 20% for gas, so in total 30% ;-) at this rate, any numbers can be floating around but none are telling the truth ;-) -- J Pan, UVic CSc, ECS566, 250-472-5796 (NO VM), Pan@UVic.CA, Web.UVic.CA/~pa= n On Fri, Nov 7, 2025 at 10:55=E2=80=AFAM Jim Forster wrote: > > Exactly so. > > Consumer expectations and service provider marketing may be influenced by= memories of experience when transmission delay did matter. At one time I = was very happy with my home ISDN connection, and even shared it with my nei= ghbor. At about 128kbs, it was three orders of magnitude slower than my ho= me fiber link. I=E2=80=99ve not run the numbers but I=E2=80=99m pretty sur= e transimission speed mattered for video, even for crummy quality video, S= o then when I learned a bit about digital video, and cable=E2=80=99s 64 QAM= 27mbps channels, I got excited and thought, =E2=80=9Cwow, they could deliv= er 1mbps service! And wouldn=E2=80=99t it be cool to have 1M home online a= t 10x the speed of ISDN?=E2=80=9D. It was cool! And two more orders of ma= gnitude later, here we are. > > =E2=80=94 Jim > > On Nov 7, 2025, at 12:52=E2=80=AFPM, J Pan wrote: > > latency is based on round-trip time, and one-way delay includes > transmission delay, propagation delay, queuing delay and processing > delay. bandwidth does affect transmission delay (or serialization > delay), propagation delay is determined by the link length and the > "travel" speed of the signal, queuing delay is the hardest part and > affected by the buffer bloat a lot, and processing delay is another > variable. of course, transmission delay takes less and less portion of > the end-to-end delay now due to higher and higher "speed" links > > consumers may mistaken the speed of the link (the "width" of their > pipe) as how fast their internet is (the "length" of the pipe), due to > the poor terminology we have been using ;-) > >