From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pj1-x102c.google.com (mail-pj1-x102c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::102c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E8BD3B29D for ; Mon, 1 Apr 2024 20:59:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x102c.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-29ddfada0d0so3391706a91.3 for ; Mon, 01 Apr 2024 17:59:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20230601; t=1712019591; x=1712624391; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=SW2NaMEPw2UjTqdKbISseHxCAIXLqjnTbLVoROs6p8g=; b=e39n/GKoOzVefmkTqZ+mk5ddFX6sZFseQvzlTFswS7m/6PwmJQeARXA9HqF2TGupnj fgF0vEn6UV9VyA/F+0C4taeHHG3KEpbDaAYEfrUnASBFadK08TUrzivBm7n+Hzu0wB/2 1ipxCBPinc4rhINKM1Y1k8wIG+yHWk+ovvfrzfQZVFO7VxdLuMvtkJ5AIzgBHGRnEeDW TR5cuyTIdl5Fzqa9n9LTTligCgihcrfqUwTb73tojhadCPGvyzY8gzZcuW6tuFypGI2q iRxNBMdlPj91KoKIoZ7tsja0w5ths8ff+WK0geVHV1mwvUIUW7GTydE423aOa5EVchtE b+Aw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1712019591; x=1712624391; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=SW2NaMEPw2UjTqdKbISseHxCAIXLqjnTbLVoROs6p8g=; b=qpSt3XUdtCr5ee7MBzMSXMzKtG2KxFMqpJx9kvGJ+FlwkDzu1ZVOLXfnyL8L6AmmTm GUq7JYc8qa29hKRlKqGF88+qqomT0gYboRR1DhCGoIBroknhn5IdZ+dlit49CTfOSTFY gmvIbFjrUCdVk8P/O3kAlMWnq4/Ssceh2HCUvRXRV1Hd/cLWLZk2Z3KJcQ7NwN8ceMyw jjmpFM1W34QxLDuB6B+Z2y+13wA8sFborjE+PbZWJ2ROgo+nd//hkGm5zlumjDESpI+9 avwnZJiM4tumPhjbUwWbnzSDjLaZp+r22BO87Pwow6NSsyHT2oJWjG/IevYX4jRq2uyo YXeQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCU3Y9/TClJGQhpPNA7sAnYFVHP3iG6iqfR1Rv0EqoOpWwF4y4VBWq71A/C4OATkhLsn/MoOi5dc2ere/JWSb5S80YthTodoYuEw7pE8+1A= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yyr6GWZEwPBcFDXIxGfXAFDTeGzS0F/UX1CafLejRShMoFPQp8Q RA1LylSa16OwHsMQQt1O2DLfkhVDOEIHEMpA7Io3TwVdTB3HYe4N3x99RtihT4I/yZ3yPzgyF8w 6yZkDICGLsRbUSK3ouAss+ghWCemxHGZ4C2Xr X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGk4f/kbiG48pR/UwSrvVEYxTGn9vuumJ9wqQr6m0RqlXTZXxIeUOaRRhjqugmUHxILpFmwSKton83WGAFTKyo= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:d48f:b0:2a2:2d77:5445 with SMTP id s15-20020a17090ad48f00b002a22d775445mr4717446pju.48.1712019590947; Mon, 01 Apr 2024 17:59:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1C8781A0-8AFF-4118-B410-D1DB66000F18@vdr.net> <79F8B638-D4B0-4052-AE1C-FC8F4BD75D4D@gmx.de> <2978971r-9599-74p3-rqq6-28n518q2spro@ynat.uz> In-Reply-To: <2978971r-9599-74p3-rqq6-28n518q2spro@ynat.uz> From: Vint Cerf Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2024 20:59:26 -0400 Message-ID: To: David Lang Cc: Hesham ElBakoury , Hesham ElBakoury via Starlink Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="0000000000009f42830615129f25" Subject: Re: [Starlink] Time Synchronization in Satellite Networks X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Apr 2024 00:59:52 -0000 --0000000000009f42830615129f25 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000091ee380615129f0d" --00000000000091ee380615129f0d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable David is correct - this is why multiple exchanges and satellites are needed to accurately synchronize and then determine location. v On Mon, Apr 1, 2024 at 8:34=E2=80=AFPM David Lang via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > I don't think we are talking about relative motion (which would affect th= e > radio > frequency) but rather the fact that the time taken for the signal to get > from > the satellite to the ground station will vary depending on the distance > between > the satellite and the ground station, and that distance is changing, so > you > can't compensate for it as easily as you can a fixed path latency. > > David Lang > > On Mon, 1 Apr 2024, Hesham ElBakoury via Starlink wrote: > > > Time from GPS is a one way transmission from the satellites down. The > > relative motion must be accounted for. It is called the Sagnac effect. > > > > On Mon, Apr 1, 2024, 3:22 PM Sebastian Moeller wrote: > > > >> Hi Hesham, > >> > >> > >>> On 2. Apr 2024, at 00:04, Hesham ElBakoury > wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi Christian, > >>> The problems is that Satellites move, therefore, the delay between t= he > >> different directions is different which violates the condition to run > NTP > >> and PTP. > >> > >> But GPS Satellites themselves are not in geostationary oprbit, and sti= ll > >> we can get precision time from them... so I would argue that must be a > >> solved problem, no? > >> > >> Regards > >> Sebastian > >> > >>> > >>> Hesham > >>> > >>> On Sat, Mar 2, 2024, 8:19 AM Christian von der Ropp > >> wrote: > >>> Hi Hesham, > >>> > >>> You do not acquire the time from a LEO satellite but directly from th= e > >> GPS satellites which carry an atomic clock on board. > >>> I'd not be aware of any LEO providing a GNSS signal but Xona plan suc= h > >> system (although not carrying proper atomic clocks but probably > chip-sized > >> atomic clocks that require frequent syncing with proper atomic clocks)= : > >>> https://twitter.com/Megaconstellati/status/1708091536439673323 > >>> > >>> There are efforts to build trapped-ion quantum clocks that are expect= ed > >> to become significantly smaller and cheaper than traditional atomic > clocks > >> while as accurate which would make it viable to put an atomic > >> clock-equivalent on small LEO satellites. Once that happens you would > have > >> an independent alternative to the big GNSS birds in MEO but with > stronger > >> signals. I'm told that we are 5-10 years away from such trapped-ion > quantum > >> clocks. > >>> > >>> But for NTP clients, the described method (running a local NTP server > in > >> the satellite terminal synced to GPS) should be good enough. > >>> > >>> Christian > >>> > >>> > >>> Am 2. M=C3=A4rz 2024 18:02:47 OEZ schrieb Hesham ElBakoury < > >> helbakoury@gmail.com>: > >>> Hi Christian, > >>> How you synchronize the time of the satellites in the network? Are yo= u > >> saying each satellite has a master clock? > >>> > >>> Hesham > >>> > >>> On Sat, Mar 2, 2024, 7:38 AM Christian von der Ropp > >> wrote: > >>> Why not acquire the time directly from by the satellite terminal and > run > >> local NTP servers instead of syncing via the Internet? LEO satellite > >> terminals always have onboard GNSS antennas for geolocation which is > >> necessary to find the satellites, so integrating a local > GNSS-disciplined > >> Stratum-1 NTP server seems trivial to me. > >>> > >>> > >>> Am 2. M=C3=A4rz 2024 17:25:59 OEZ schrieb Hesham ElBakoury via Starli= nk < > >> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>: > >>> Hi Sebastian, > >>> Can we still use PTP and NTP for time synchronization in Satellite > >> networks or we need new protocols? If we need new protocols, do such > >> protocols exist? > >>> > >>> Thanks > >>> Hesham > >>> > >>> On Sat, Mar 2, 2024, 7:18 AM Sebastian Moeller > wrote: > >>> Hi Hesham > >>> > >>>> On 2. Mar 2024, at 16:03, Hesham ElBakoury via Starlink < > >> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Time synchronization, for satellite networks, faces several > challenges: > >>>> 1. Signal Propagation Delays: Unlike terrestrial networks where > >> signals travel through cables at the speed of light, > >>> > >>> [SM] The speed of light in your typical glas fibers (and accidentally > >> the information propagation speed in metallic conductors) comes in > roughly > >> at 2/3 of the speed of light in vacuum, while the speed of light in ai= r > at > >> see level is a mere 90 KM/s slower than in vacuum. > >>> > >>>> satellite communication involves signals traveling vast distances > >> through space. This creates significant delays. > >>> > >>> [SM] Sure distances might be larger, but propagation speed is around > >> 100000Km/s faster... my main point is speed of light is a) dependent o= n > the > >> medium b) not the things that differentiates space from the earth's > surface > >> here, but mere geometry and larger distances on larger spheres... > >>> > >>>> 2. Clock Drift: Even highly precise atomic clocks, used in satellite= s, > >> are susceptible to "drift" - gradually losing or gaining time. This > drift, > >> caused by factors like temperature variations, radiation exposure, and > >> power fluctuations, can lead to inconsistencies in timekeeping across > the > >> network. > >>>> 3. Signal Degradation: As signals travel through space, they can > >> degrade due to factors like atmospheric interference, ionospheric > >> disturbances, and solar activity. This degradation can introduce noise > and > >> errors, impacting the accuracy of time synchronization messages. > >>>> 4. Limited Resources: Satellites have limited power and processing > >> capabilities. Implementing complex synchronization protocols can be > >> resource-intensive, requiring careful optimization to minimize their > impact > >> on other functionalities. > >>>> 5. Evolving Technologies: As satellite technologies and applications > >> continue to evolve, new challenges related to synchronization might > emerge. > >> For example, the integration of constellations with thousands of > satellites > >> poses unique synchronization challenges due to the sheer scale and > >> complexity of the network. > >>>> These challenges necessitate the development of robust and efficient > >> time synchronization protocols for satellite networks and an integrate= d > >> satellite and terrestrial networks > >>>> Are you aware of such time synchronization protocols? > >>>> I would think that using Satellite simulators is the most viable way > >> to develop and test these protocols given that using satellites is not > that > >> easy. > >>>> Thanks > >>>> Hesham > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> _______________________________________________ > >>>> Starlink mailing list > >>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 Mail > >> gesendet. > >>> -- > >>> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 Mail > >> gesendet. > >> > >> > >_______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --=20 Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice --00000000000091ee380615129f0d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
David is correct - this is why multiple exchanges and sate= llites are needed to accurately synchronize and then determine location.v


On Mon, Apr 1, 2024 at 8:34=E2=80=AFPM David Lang v= ia Starlink <starlink@= lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
I don't think we are talking about relative motion= (which would affect the radio
frequency) but rather the fact that the time taken for the signal to get fr= om
the satellite to the ground station will vary depending on the distance bet= ween
the satellite and the ground station, and that distance is changing, so you=
can't compensate for it as easily as you can a fixed path latency.

David Lang

On Mon, 1 Apr 2024, Hesham ElBakoury via Starlink wrote:

> Time from GPS is a one way transmission from the satellites down. The<= br> > relative motion must be accounted for. It is called the Sagnac effect.=
>
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2024, 3:22 PM Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote:
>
>> Hi Hesham,
>>
>>
>>> On 2. Apr 2024, at 00:04, Hesham ElBakoury <helbakoury@gmail.com> wro= te:
>>>
>>> Hi Christian,
>>> The problems is that Satellites move, therefore,=C2=A0 the del= ay between the
>> different directions is different which violates the condition to = run NTP
>> and PTP.
>>
>> But GPS Satellites themselves are not in geostationary oprbit, and= still
>> we can get precision time from them... so I would argue that must = be a
>> solved problem, no?
>>
>> Regards
>>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Sebastian
>>
>>>
>>> Hesham
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 2, 2024, 8:19 AM Christian von der Ropp <cvdr@vdr.net>
>> wrote:
>>> Hi Hesham,
>>>
>>> You do not acquire the time from a LEO satellite but directly = from the
>> GPS satellites which carry an atomic clock on board.
>>> I'd not be aware of any LEO providing a GNSS signal but Xo= na plan such
>> system (although not carrying proper atomic clocks but probably ch= ip-sized
>> atomic clocks that require frequent syncing with proper atomic clo= cks):
>>> https://twitter.com/Megac= onstellati/status/1708091536439673323
>>>
>>> There are efforts to build trapped-ion quantum clocks that are= expected
>> to become significantly smaller and cheaper than traditional atomi= c clocks
>> while as accurate which would make it viable to put an atomic
>> clock-equivalent on small LEO satellites. Once that happens you wo= uld have
>> an independent alternative to the big GNSS birds in MEO but with s= tronger
>> signals. I'm told that we are 5-10 years away from such trappe= d-ion quantum
>> clocks.
>>>
>>> But for NTP clients, the described method (running a local NTP= server in
>> the satellite terminal synced to GPS) should be good enough.
>>>
>>> Christian
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 2. M=C3=A4rz 2024 18:02:47 OEZ schrieb Hesham ElBakoury <= ;
>> helbakou= ry@gmail.com>:
>>> Hi Christian,
>>> How you synchronize the time of the satellites in the network?= Are you
>> saying each satellite has a master clock?
>>>
>>> Hesham
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 2, 2024, 7:38 AM Christian von der Ropp <cvdr@vdr.net>
>> wrote:
>>> Why not acquire the time directly from by the satellite termin= al and run
>> local NTP servers instead of syncing via the Internet? LEO satelli= te
>> terminals always have onboard GNSS antennas for geolocation which = is
>> necessary to find the satellites, so integrating a local GNSS-disc= iplined
>> Stratum-1 NTP server seems trivial to me.
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 2. M=C3=A4rz 2024 17:25:59 OEZ schrieb Hesham ElBakoury via= Starlink <
>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>:
>>> Hi Sebastian,
>>> Can we still use PTP and NTP for time synchronization in=C2=A0= Satellite
>> networks or we need new protocols? If we need new protocols, do su= ch
>> protocols exist?
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>> Hesham
>>>
>>> On Sat, Mar 2, 2024, 7:18 AM Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de> wrote: >>> Hi Hesham
>>>
>>>> On 2. Mar 2024, at 16:03, Hesham ElBakoury via Starlink &l= t;
>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Time synchronization, for satellite networks, faces severa= l challenges:
>>>> 1. Signal Propagation Delays: Unlike terrestrial networks = where
>> signals travel through cables at the speed of light,
>>>
>>> [SM] The speed of light in your typical glas fibers (and accid= entally
>> the information propagation speed in metallic conductors) comes in= roughly
>> at 2/3 of the speed of light in vacuum, while the speed of light i= n air at
>> see level is a mere 90 KM/s slower than in vacuum.
>>>
>>>> satellite communication involves signals traveling vast di= stances
>> through space. This creates significant delays.
>>>
>>> [SM] Sure distances might be larger, but propagation speed is = around
>> 100000Km/s faster... my main point is speed of light is a) depende= nt on the
>> medium b) not the things that differentiates space from the earth&= #39;s surface
>> here, but mere geometry and larger distances on larger spheres...<= br> >>>
>>>> 2. Clock Drift: Even highly precise atomic clocks, used in= satellites,
>> are susceptible to "drift" - gradually losing or gaining= time. This drift,
>> caused by factors like temperature variations, radiation exposure,= and
>> power fluctuations, can lead to inconsistencies in timekeeping acr= oss the
>> network.
>>>> 3. Signal Degradation: As signals travel through space, th= ey can
>> degrade due to factors like atmospheric interference, ionospheric<= br> >> disturbances, and solar activity. This degradation can introduce n= oise and
>> errors, impacting the accuracy of time synchronization messages. >>>> 4. Limited Resources: Satellites have limited power and pr= ocessing
>> capabilities. Implementing complex synchronization protocols can b= e
>> resource-intensive, requiring careful optimization to minimize the= ir impact
>> on other functionalities.
>>>> 5. Evolving Technologies: As satellite technologies and ap= plications
>> continue to evolve, new challenges related to synchronization migh= t emerge.
>> For example, the integration of constellations with thousands of s= atellites
>> poses unique synchronization challenges due to the sheer scale and=
>> complexity of the network.
>>>> These challenges necessitate the development of robust and= efficient
>> time synchronization protocols for satellite networks and an integ= rated
>> satellite and=C2=A0 terrestrial networks
>>>> Are you aware of such time synchronization protocols?
>>>> I would think that using Satellite simulators is the most = viable way
>> to develop and test these protocols given that using satellites is= not that
>> easy.
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Hesham
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Starlink mailing list
>>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listin= fo/starlink
>>>
>>> --
>>> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 = Mail
>> gesendet.
>>> --
>>> Diese Nachricht wurde von meinem Android-Mobiltelefon mit K-9 = Mail
>> gesendet.
>>
>>
>_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


--
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, = 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346
=


unti= l further notice



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