From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com (mail-wm1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 948E53B29D for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 14:28:49 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id e18so7150795wmq.3 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 11:28:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=88GmyZwB1dLTT9P51p7MDsR9BcYELggPl2by8V0LQ50=; b=ssRsCw2RL+eviygAQm7CJo3bY7d15KCIKoHT6KXXwsupKldCDAL+kAPTNeWAQgPZjf txIdiz0hjRQlQlqIm8mZV3QTsf4IlhL62uqbnIK+MeJuY8tW0UVg9bx49DwAEOjw6m0K uAt1xjTIOHjfL7V2XdJJSR/LyYQ4OZC2bWshw2886NUa3OaC8vYJPjbOfkNr84azFaty v6KI9Blai5/f+l1EBd7HAdibbSS3qhawUlOxDZJx3LzfzHEWY3hyM+Z3fZSykaFev0rG J4ax32tEivEIvb/vTkMYH5GSOF1MPWxzDunKhe2Yteg6j/Hc/6Ig1fJKH20xsepijJWD cKXg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=88GmyZwB1dLTT9P51p7MDsR9BcYELggPl2by8V0LQ50=; b=w8AS+SajKkycuPxXnmwa5kpGAXS0OQwwNpGGDj3SzSaAWrxv+Rb8PxaTI0M2h01NwG hSfSIsJcop36U9cet2XfauNQBxUulm+sH6qD/aasndreSe9x6buNKSye/uHmiq0wmhrO IfV/J2U+X0xGZL4sfKjHnxlJKxMHdC3cMNwEXjAr53Tbaeqj8urxKZ+g1k4Y4xQS/Jp5 kCNRLJo8qAnmcdcavh4B6hLLmfPk1JRmL7s9y/9e2XvkuDLvaaOiqZgKOUTkoCA0S9n6 6IavT8i1JVXBWALNpmOvPN4eSnncY4hn2JcOwjdwj0v86n7JOnzo211p+qsBaoFrRDIH J96A== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf3hmBnt2JsaREalnqgFXZGxbRaXqpV1NWbPaObwJy1Sc+gaJIql WaFhiKOfdr1OVaEnelrFTmyXavULvHal2PZNfcGf9A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM6x5krDVXGMB/6X9TEZzxeFXjlgYY1lHkYyJ9SEZEp9Y0LO18dlbRsd+b7rerlu+1wUOdu/7LXTJz3PEiTd99E= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:88a:b0:3c5:c9e3:15cc with SMTP id l10-20020a05600c088a00b003c5c9e315ccmr4939851wmp.67.1665944928256; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 11:28:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8735bqpq1r.wl-jch@irif.fr> <65rp9416-298q-33n8-6p20-6195sqp691oq@ynat.uz> <87v8omo8r3.wl-jch@irif.fr> <87h706ntwi.wl-jch@irif.fr> <3263acfd-aa5d-4404-805d-0ed966185d5a@Spark> In-Reply-To: From: Vint Cerf Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 14:28:35 -0400 Message-ID: To: Steve Stroh Cc: Mike Puchol , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="000000000000b0b7f405eb2b077d" Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian army? X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 18:28:49 -0000 --000000000000b0b7f405eb2b077d Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000aa570f05eb2b07f6" --000000000000aa570f05eb2b07f6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 1:31 PM Steve Stroh via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > On the battlefield, high power continuous jamming such as you describe > tends not to last very long. There are special missiles (HARM - High spee= d > AntiRadiation Missile) to remedy that situation. They home in on a jammin= g > transmitter like a beacon. > this is called "ballistic anti-jam" :-)))) > > One of the stellar attributes about Starlink is that it=E2=80=99s using p= hased > array antennas on both user terminals and satellites, proving a =E2=80=9C= tight > beam=E2=80=9D. I=E2=80=99m speculating, but my guess is that clever progr= amming is > configuring the satellite beams to be contoured to ignore contested areas > where jamming is being attempted. An additional speculation is that > Starlink is programming both the satellites and user terminals to > continuously authenticate each other=E2=80=99s transmission, allowing the= m to > ignore spoofing attempts. > > Not to mention that the directional nature of the beams allows for a > positional reality check. If a terminal is attempted to be used by the > enemy and the terminal=E2=80=99s internal GPS is spoofed to say it=E2=80= =99s well within > Ukraine (good guy territory) rather than its real location outside Ukrain= e > (bad guy territory), the satellite can discern that a terminal really isn= =E2=80=99t > where it=E2=80=99s reporting it is, and that terminal gets (permanently?) > deauthorized. > > On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 13:45 Mike Puchol via Starlink < > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> Pumping out RF at fairly high power levels, and pointing an antenna at a >> satellite, are both things very easy to do for someone like Russia. To t= hen >> jam 500 MHz of spectrum all at once is not that trivial, and one can get >> creative, eg by only attacking the reference subcarriers in OFDM, thus >> concentrating RF power on those, rather than the whole channel. >> >> There are some papers written around jamming LTE by attacking specific >> resources instead of the whole band, making the attack less conspicuous, >> something similar could be applied against Starlink. By not using brute >> force, you also make the attack harder to detect and counter. >> >> My view is that Russia is not worried about being noticed, and just >> applies brute force. >> >> Best, >> >> Mike >> On Oct 14, 2022 at 20:26 +0200, Juliusz Chroboczek , wrote: >> >> Juliusz, see the Twitter thread I linked to, it explains precisely the >> jamming scenarios they could be facing, and how they are possible. >> >> >> I saw it after I wrote my question, and it does explain a lot. Thanks. >> >> Do you have an idea how difficult it is to actually do in practice? Is i= t >> a simple matter of plugging a second-hand VSAT dish to an old amateur >> radio rig, or do you actually need to be a research lab of the Moscow >> Academy of Sciences to do it? >> >> -- Juliusz >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> > -- > Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) > Editor > Zero Retries Newsletter - https://zeroretries.substack.com > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --=20 Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice --000000000000aa570f05eb2b07f6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 1:31 PM Steve= Stroh via Starlink <s= tarlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
On the battlefield, high pow= er continuous jamming such as you describe tends not to last very long. The= re are special missiles (HARM - High speed AntiRadiation Missile) to remedy= that situation. They home in on a jamming transmitter like a beacon.
=
this is called "ballistic anti-jam" :-))))=C2= =A0

One of the stellar attributes about Starlink = is that it=E2=80=99s using phased array antennas on both user terminals and= satellites, proving a =E2=80=9Ctight beam=E2=80=9D. I=E2=80=99m speculatin= g, but my guess is that clever programming is configuring the satellite bea= ms to be contoured to ignore contested areas where jamming is being attempt= ed. An additional speculation is that Starlink is programming both the sate= llites and user terminals to continuously authenticate each other=E2=80=99s= transmission, allowing them to ignore spoofing attempts.

Not to mention that the directional natur= e of the beams allows for a positional reality check. If a terminal is atte= mpted to be used by the enemy and the terminal=E2=80=99s internal GPS is sp= oofed to say it=E2=80=99s well within Ukraine (good guy territory) rather t= han its real location outside Ukraine (bad guy territory), the satellite ca= n discern that a terminal really isn=E2=80=99t where it=E2=80=99s reporting= it is, and that terminal gets (permanently?) deauthorized.

<= div class=3D"gmail_quote">
On Fri, Oct= 14, 2022 at 13:45 Mike Puchol via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net= > wrote:
Pumping out RF at fairly high power levels, and pointing = an antenna at a satellite, are both things very easy to do for someone like= Russia. To then jam 500 MHz of spectrum all at once is not that trivial, a= nd one can get creative, eg by only attacking the reference subcarriers in = OFDM, thus concentrating RF power on those, rather than the whole channel.= =C2=A0

There are some papers written around jamming LTE by attacking specific reso= urces instead of the whole band, making the attack less conspicuous, someth= ing similar could be applied against Starlink. By not using brute force, yo= u also make the attack harder to detect and counter.

My view is that Russia is not worried about being noticed, and just applies= brute force.

Best,

Mike
_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
--
Steve Str= oh N8GNJ (he / him / his)
Editor
Zero Retries Newsletter - https://zeroretries= .substack.com

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


--
Please send any postal/ove= rnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
<= div>1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346

<= /div>

until further notice


=

--000000000000aa570f05eb2b07f6-- --000000000000b0b7f405eb2b077d Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIPlwYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIPiDCCD4QCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0BBwGg ggzxMIIEtjCCA56gAwIBAgIQeAMYYHb81ngUVR0WyMTzqzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADBMMSAwHgYD VQQLExdHbG9iYWxTaWduIFJvb3QgQ0EgLSBSMzETMBEGA1UEChMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjETMBEGA1UE AxMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjAeFw0yMDA3MjgwMDAwMDBaFw0yOTAzMTgwMDAwMDBaMFQxCzAJBgNVBAYT AkJFMRkwFwYDVQQKExBHbG9iYWxTaWduIG52LXNhMSowKAYDVQQDEyFHbG9iYWxTaWduIEF0bGFz IFIzIFNNSU1FIENBIDIwMjAwggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQCvLe9xPU9W dpiHLAvX7kFnaFZPuJLey7LYaMO8P/xSngB9IN73mVc7YiLov12Fekdtn5kL8PjmDBEvTYmWsuQS 6VBo3vdlqqXZ0M9eMkjcKqijrmDRleudEoPDzTumwQ18VB/3I+vbN039HIaRQ5x+NHGiPHVfk6Rx c6KAbYceyeqqfuJEcq23vhTdium/Bf5hHqYUhuJwnBQ+dAUcFndUKMJrth6lHeoifkbw2bv81zxJ I9cvIy516+oUekqiSFGfzAqByv41OrgLV4fLGCDH3yRh1tj7EtV3l2TngqtrDLUs5R+sWIItPa/4 AJXB1Q3nGNl2tNjVpcSn0uJ7aFPbAgMBAAGjggGKMIIBhjAOBgNVHQ8BAf8EBAMCAYYwHQYDVR0l BBYwFAYIKwYBBQUHAwIGCCsGAQUFBwMEMBIGA1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwHQYDVR0OBBYEFHzM CmjXouseLHIb0c1dlW+N+/JjMB8GA1UdIwQYMBaAFI/wS3+oLkUkrk1Q+mOai97i3Ru8MHsGCCsG AQUFBwEBBG8wbTAuBggrBgEFBQcwAYYiaHR0cDovL29jc3AyLmdsb2JhbHNpZ24uY29tL3Jvb3Ry MzA7BggrBgEFBQcwAoYvaHR0cDovL3NlY3VyZS5nbG9iYWxzaWduLmNvbS9jYWNlcnQvcm9vdC1y My5jcnQwNgYDVR0fBC8wLTAroCmgJ4YlaHR0cDovL2NybC5nbG9iYWxzaWduLmNvbS9yb290LXIz LmNybDBMBgNVHSAERTBDMEEGCSsGAQQBoDIBKDA0MDIGCCsGAQUFBwIBFiZodHRwczovL3d3dy5n bG9iYWxzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5LzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFAAOCAQEANyYcO+9JZYyqQt41 TMwvFWAw3vLoLOQIfIn48/yea/ekOcParTb0mbhsvVSZ6sGn+txYAZb33wIb1f4wK4xQ7+RUYBfI TuTPL7olF9hDpojC2F6Eu8nuEf1XD9qNI8zFd4kfjg4rb+AME0L81WaCL/WhP2kDCnRU4jm6TryB CHhZqtxkIvXGPGHjwJJazJBnX5NayIce4fGuUEJ7HkuCthVZ3Rws0UyHSAXesT/0tXATND4mNr1X El6adiSQy619ybVERnRi5aDe1PTwE+qNiotEEaeujz1a/+yYaaTY+k+qJcVxi7tbyQ0hi0UB3myM A/z2HmGEwO8hx7hDjKmKbDCCA18wggJHoAMCAQICCwQAAAAAASFYUwiiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUA MEwxIDAeBgNVBAsTF0dsb2JhbFNpZ24gUm9vdCBDQSAtIFIzMRMwEQYDVQQKEwpHbG9iYWxTaWdu MRMwEQYDVQQDEwpHbG9iYWxTaWduMB4XDTA5MDMxODEwMDAwMFoXDTI5MDMxODEwMDAwMFowTDEg MB4GA1UECxMXR2xvYmFsU2lnbiBSb290IENBIC0gUjMxEzARBgNVBAoTCkdsb2JhbFNpZ24xEzAR BgNVBAMTCkdsb2JhbFNpZ24wggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDMJXaQeQZ4 Ihb1wIO2hMoonv0FdhHFrYhy/EYCQ8eyip0EXyTLLkvhYIJG4VKrDIFHcGzdZNHr9SyjD4I9DCuu l9e2FIYQebs7E4B3jAjhSdJqYi8fXvqWaN+JJ5U4nwbXPsnLJlkNc96wyOkmDoMVxu9bi9IEYMpJ pij2aTv2y8gokeWdimFXN6x0FNx04Druci8unPvQu7/1PQDhBjPogiuuU6Y6FnOM3UEOIDrAtKeh 6bJPkC4yYOlXy7kEkmho5TgmYHWyn3f/kRTvriBJ/K1AFUjRAjFhGV64l++td7dkmnq/X8ET75ti +w1s4FRpFqkD2m7pg5NxdsZphYIXAgMBAAGjQjBAMA4GA1UdDwEB/wQEAwIBBjAPBgNVHRMBAf8E BTADAQH/MB0GA1UdDgQWBBSP8Et/qC5FJK5NUPpjmove4t0bvDANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFAAOCAQEA S0DbwFCq/sgM7/eWVEVJu5YACUGssxOGhigHM8pr5nS5ugAtrqQK0/Xx8Q+Kv3NnSoPHRHt44K9u bG8DKY4zOUXDjuS5V2yq/BKW7FPGLeQkbLmUY/vcU2hnVj6DuM81IcPJaP7O2sJTqsyQiunwXUaM ld16WCgaLx3ezQA3QY/tRG3XUyiXfvNnBB4V14qWtNPeTCekTBtzc3b0F5nCH3oO4y0IrQocLP88 q1UOD5F+NuvDV0m+4S4tfGCLw0FREyOdzvcya5QBqJnnLDMfOjsl0oZAzjsshnjJYS8Uuu7bVW/f hO4FCU29KNhyztNiUGUe65KXgzHZs7XKR1g/XzCCBNAwggO4oAMCAQICEAFNXf1cVf/UHb3a5923 s5kwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQAwVDELMAkGA1UEBhMCQkUxGTAXBgNVBAoTEEdsb2JhbFNpZ24gbnYt c2ExKjAoBgNVBAMTIUdsb2JhbFNpZ24gQXRsYXMgUjMgU01JTUUgQ0EgMjAyMDAeFw0yMjA3MDQy MDUzMjJaFw0yMjEyMzEyMDUzMjJaMCAxHjAcBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWD3ZpbnRAZ29vZ2xlLmNvbTCC ASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBANhHJdb2xxwVltwVibbagFdZiNRvdnGVNAXv 9QudxW3NCAcvWhhbLIEyI9tyYUUKZ6dsUhkDlN4UMhdvq8doXHbq2hHR42yXJrxSZQU7evS18HbJ kEy9MOJkcdOD49jZo9Nc/R+GcMEEqHbkqwcUEsuwfZBn00NG4sL7g/vVq6kbrcS6NZxtCizTuNXm H1oEqxQD73JG3dHQlo9qqpm0mqMssS3vLARmSJbRVCu2yEeSu/rg8NeY/r7Lvsl2sehTT6qZDlSe 5KNZVWWDptxaVj2Vy0PzwIu1/Y6efgJZNGU3J/k0Y2ZB1e++0f5PvXN3rQja1XOnYJI5dtMOn+0T DRMCAwEAAaOCAdAwggHMMBoGA1UdEQQTMBGBD3ZpbnRAZ29vZ2xlLmNvbTAOBgNVHQ8BAf8EBAMC BaAwHQYDVR0lBBYwFAYIKwYBBQUHAwQGCCsGAQUFBwMCMB0GA1UdDgQWBBSMu0a0KF4gE7LonlBU rFv1qqTRETBMBgNVHSAERTBDMEEGCSsGAQQBoDIBKDA0MDIGCCsGAQUFBwIBFiZodHRwczovL3d3 dy5nbG9iYWxzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5LzAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMIGaBggrBgEFBQcBAQSB jTCBijA+BggrBgEFBQcwAYYyaHR0cDovL29jc3AuZ2xvYmFsc2lnbi5jb20vY2EvZ3NhdGxhc3Iz c21pbWVjYTIwMjAwSAYIKwYBBQUHMAKGPGh0dHA6Ly9zZWN1cmUuZ2xvYmFsc2lnbi5jb20vY2Fj ZXJ0L2dzYXRsYXNyM3NtaW1lY2EyMDIwLmNydDAfBgNVHSMEGDAWgBR8zApo16LrHixyG9HNXZVv jfvyYzBGBgNVHR8EPzA9MDugOaA3hjVodHRwOi8vY3JsLmdsb2JhbHNpZ24uY29tL2NhL2dzYXRs YXNyM3NtaW1lY2EyMDIwLmNybDANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFAAOCAQEAC+rBHynXcI5eQxRz3zrQue/C Q5LNXQki0y/nA+pZCbdeODEjtFckKhKfzw9fZhY72X4zu64V95a4lTeQMO3ZHLSa0MB7gFo1jmGP jDSyKf4XwggFFqwxrfvcONMB8GaYc695rGkStAxqudRFD9FUnukeImNA+hJqXFgQ+rx9hhYPVA16 FqQizrGW32w53sP3Sm77WjluYmFvo4qFfXz//tli1WkoD5Rw+wEQDPf+klTVLbS2z3jhVu0MilX8 KWh5Rjz5QDUsdPVxyWLpqa9eXoBn5H/VJ3/pPuh9Rj3HuXkhDoOHVhPZSeSSPt3hFXPJD4eVh11j CyOgNBBXGaRZjzGCAmowggJmAgEBMGgwVDELMAkGA1UEBhMCQkUxGTAXBgNVBAoTEEdsb2JhbFNp Z24gbnYtc2ExKjAoBgNVBAMTIUdsb2JhbFNpZ24gQXRsYXMgUjMgU01JTUUgQ0EgMjAyMAIQAU1d /VxV/9Qdvdrn3bezmTANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFAKCB1DAvBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxIgQgL+Wzfia0A8EB apJicYIdkou4HnP96x0kd6mEPX4GRmcwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMjIxMDE2MTgyODQ4WjBpBgkqhkiG9w0BCQ8xXDBaMAsGCWCGSAFlAwQBKjALBglg hkgBZQMEARYwCwYJYIZIAWUDBAECMAoGCCqGSIb3DQMHMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEBCjALBgkqhkiG9w0B AQcwCwYJYIZIAWUDBAIBMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABIIBAHUAPmiXvyI97YZ7lrrVcVz6LmHGALKZ HFvMgSso8lMSJ3HD8zKkeMl8MXhF/Ep9JzrU+NvnohTRsDtObYD1akGdH8C72EoUJwmyBxM35oLy 7lw2Bq2xxTypi4zGC8dKbhHUmQHqVif9Q+BDIMOFrbcVsQiZ9KtbCIXUNUO2qBSXQ1muyrYNDsrf cVja3hXEFeV4UR7Zj2d8FxaY8/naW+y9f3Ee4k5/kIShXk+8ByAtGQE1Tt+dfCWg5bCobiuIFOJI JLiUCcm9KHpq1guTFstvXACZtbcHgUpJwgJahwjINK5NKD5JP1DdIePbtyZU1pV+tw99/RTTd6gy oGchGHA= --000000000000b0b7f405eb2b077d--