From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pj1-x1036.google.com (mail-pj1-x1036.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1036]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C0DCE3B29D for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2023 21:48:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-pj1-x1036.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-27702912521so2063766a91.1 for ; Fri, 22 Sep 2023 18:48:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20230601; t=1695433685; x=1696038485; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=/jKkSdU6CtWehpNnBR8doBoN4NQOiwIv7mF8i1qhVkI=; b=iy3IciAtCOkHx7WXauCSJeG6aYAANmP/3Reu5P405fRYBm9foEIQSXx28w1HEbPcCs EIjHG1ieCzw4joXzBwK7njY9K3cGHCttiQz1ZvSTxmzhLl5y4XZHDCKr0VKKakhUlMrj Tfbw4eB/KhTXaILUKJ+QPgKsj8rI0v2nAo+X0aT9CA7CkaSlT/ODtA04MRlpFsBkMsoW 0l6CmzhYP963as5FTJN8EICLAa3IdGnoLOW43+iwZm0xk8vBsYvw6PWurabSB49W0aN4 YQtWy372UE875QhmsQI+/xg3SizDbBgArICESSgff3sGQlJHdixqO+5MP/1+XqWc38cK GJOg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1695433685; x=1696038485; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=/jKkSdU6CtWehpNnBR8doBoN4NQOiwIv7mF8i1qhVkI=; b=ZnTJCSYJYPXaBNDvUrLtMXAHYXySg/vG/p72BtqQpN1AidmDn6jF+X21EbDXTx+2Pq L1V2kKiSyEw+xhqJMxo6lQS01ftwNR5VLiemQT5DJNsd21E+Yk/FGjUf+NPMbQ5c3XFD aT0R80XREUaB2acKdE4o8yjPPmjv2pxLAnIdS/Qn18oUcH6ckLHpKE0spxBJ+57NcwIi AHD7B7WVtqC0/ueW8Z65SrBZubetE1IAUphXr9kvfq32fgdgDGQadI67TJ7MgG7HzY0q hNSX/QdeNebW9hi462FXBnGtzonKeMObJgx9/oGU2w5p0nIC//HbWGLi/ezHeSgVDd+6 u3lg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxJDwjbbKt2GcQ7atuzHfLYgYo/Up3HnaCK8vQBftIKttdbVDr+ DkUem8MqeYH3tTpZQooJq911dbcnsEZbJpvFE4J0VopMSF8GtmuA/gE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGErDDEA8Rd9FjapHWMbJ0+bNGwvhEqfkt1lOO0pIH+Ue1GctZBaeLJ0768USTYNC/1HRpe+2EAPFwiCZpwgG8= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90b:3905:b0:268:808:8e82 with SMTP id ob5-20020a17090b390500b0026808088e82mr1830695pjb.1.1695433685264; Fri, 22 Sep 2023 18:48:05 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9d96e8d6-8a40-4353-b7a3-49881742f1a7@auckland.ac.nz> In-Reply-To: From: Vint Cerf Date: Fri, 22 Sep 2023 21:47:43 -0400 Message-ID: To: Noel Butler Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="00000000000097b3ae0605fcea55" Subject: Re: [Starlink] APNIC56 last week X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2023 01:48:06 -0000 --00000000000097b3ae0605fcea55 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008d9c330605fcea01" --0000000000008d9c330605fcea01 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Noel, IPv4 is only managing to work because it is NATted - going to IPv6 let's us get back to point-to-point in either direction including rendezvous. The present IPv4 situation is NOT good - people are paying $35-50 per IPv4 address to acquire or even to lease them. For all practical purposes, IPv4 has run out. vint On Fri, Sep 22, 2023 at 9:33=E2=80=AFPM Noel Butler via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > On 20/09/2023 11:13, Dave Taht via Starlink wrote: > > > > As vs Geoffs presentation on QUIC eating the universe in terms of traffic > volume, and the world becoming a giant content distribution network, I > still hold, that the internet is a communications network, and that despi= te > content moving ever closer to the edges, more private content, and > connecting people to people, and vpns to corporations, will remain an > important use case. Ssh as one example, still holds the underpinnings of > the network together, and is very low traffic volume, and there is no suc= h > thing as a "voip caching server". Also, big providers of replicated > content, such as steam, are experimenting with bittorrent-like techniques > again. QUIC makes torrent extremely feasible once again. > > > Despite my high level of respect for Geoff, he, and others like him, ofte= n > talk things up to push things their way of thinking, we only need look at > the FUD they came out with in mid 90's about IPv4's imminent demise givin= g > it three to five years before depletion, and here we are 30 years later a= nd > it is still the most dominant transport protocol by a long long mile > despite allegedly running out only a few years ago and not in early 2000= 's > as they tried to claim. (Even today there are still reserve stocks on /24= 's > for newbies from some regions, and the bigger networks have years of > stockpiled addresses in reserve). > > It's also like the local water board here who last week came out saying a > whopping 70% of people surveyed said they'd drink recycled water, of cour= se > it was the local water board that conducted this alleged survey, because > >90% of the more independent polling shows a totally different story. > > "Ohh, everybody's doing it" "must be safe" "we should do it" ... nah... > TCP isn't going anywhere, nor is UDP, not in my lifetime anyway :) > > Cheers > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --=20 Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice --0000000000008d9c330605fcea01 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Noel, IPv4 is only managing to work because it is NATted -= going to IPv6 let's us get back to point-to-point in either direction = including rendezvous.=C2=A0
The present IPv4 situation is NOT good - pe= ople are paying $35-50 per IPv4 address to acquire or even to lease them. F= or all practical purposes, IPv4 has run out.

vint<= /div>


On Fri, Sep 22, 2023 at 9:33=E2=80=AFPM Noel Butler via= Starlink <starlink@li= sts.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

On 20/09/2023 11:13, Dave Taht v= ia Starlink wrote:

=C2=A0

As vs=C2=A0Geoffs presentation on QUIC=C2=A0eating the universe in ter= ms of traffic volume, and the world becoming a giant content distribution n= etwork, I still hold, that the internet is a communications network, and th= at despite content moving ever closer to the edges, more private content, a= nd connecting people to people, and vpns to corporations, will remain an im= portant use case. Ssh as one example, still holds the underpinnings of the = network together, and is very low traffic volume, and there is no such thin= g as a "voip caching server". Also, big providers of replicated c= ontent, such as steam, are experimenting with bittorrent-like techniques ag= ain. QUIC makes torrent extremely feasible once again.=C2=A0


Despite my high level of respect for Geoff, he, and others like him, oft= en talk things up to push things their way of thinking, we only need look a= t the FUD they came out with in mid 90's about IPv4's imminent demi= se giving it three to five years before depletion, and here we are 30 years= later and it is still the most dominant transport protocol by a long long = mile despite allegedly =C2=A0running out only a few years ago=C2=A0and not = in early 2000's as they tried to claim.=C2=A0(Even today there are stil= l reserve stocks on /24's for newbies from some regions, and the bigger= networks have years of stockpiled addresses in reserve).

It's also like the local water board here who last week came out say= ing a whopping 70% of people surveyed said they'd drink recycled water,= of course it was the local water board that conducted this alleged survey,= because >90% of the more independent polling shows a totally different = story.

"Ohh, everybody's doing it" =C2=A0"must be safe"= "we should do it" =C2=A0... nah... TCP isn't going anywhere,= nor is UDP, not in my lifetime anyway :)

Cheers


_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


--
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, = 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346
=


unti= l further notice



--0000000000008d9c330605fcea01-- --00000000000097b3ae0605fcea55 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIPlwYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIPiDCCD4QCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0BBwGg ggzxMIIEtjCCA56gAwIBAgIQeAMYYHb81ngUVR0WyMTzqzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFADBMMSAwHgYD VQQLExdHbG9iYWxTaWduIFJvb3QgQ0EgLSBSMzETMBEGA1UEChMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjETMBEGA1UE AxMKR2xvYmFsU2lnbjAeFw0yMDA3MjgwMDAwMDBaFw0yOTAzMTgwMDAwMDBaMFQxCzAJBgNVBAYT AkJFMRkwFwYDVQQKExBHbG9iYWxTaWduIG52LXNhMSowKAYDVQQDEyFHbG9iYWxTaWduIEF0bGFz IFIzIFNNSU1FIENBIDIwMjAwggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQCvLe9xPU9W dpiHLAvX7kFnaFZPuJLey7LYaMO8P/xSngB9IN73mVc7YiLov12Fekdtn5kL8PjmDBEvTYmWsuQS 6VBo3vdlqqXZ0M9eMkjcKqijrmDRleudEoPDzTumwQ18VB/3I+vbN039HIaRQ5x+NHGiPHVfk6Rx c6KAbYceyeqqfuJEcq23vhTdium/Bf5hHqYUhuJwnBQ+dAUcFndUKMJrth6lHeoifkbw2bv81zxJ I9cvIy516+oUekqiSFGfzAqByv41OrgLV4fLGCDH3yRh1tj7EtV3l2TngqtrDLUs5R+sWIItPa/4 AJXB1Q3nGNl2tNjVpcSn0uJ7aFPbAgMBAAGjggGKMIIBhjAOBgNVHQ8BAf8EBAMCAYYwHQYDVR0l BBYwFAYIKwYBBQUHAwIGCCsGAQUFBwMEMBIGA1UdEwEB/wQIMAYBAf8CAQAwHQYDVR0OBBYEFHzM CmjXouseLHIb0c1dlW+N+/JjMB8GA1UdIwQYMBaAFI/wS3+oLkUkrk1Q+mOai97i3Ru8MHsGCCsG AQUFBwEBBG8wbTAuBggrBgEFBQcwAYYiaHR0cDovL29jc3AyLmdsb2JhbHNpZ24uY29tL3Jvb3Ry MzA7BggrBgEFBQcwAoYvaHR0cDovL3NlY3VyZS5nbG9iYWxzaWduLmNvbS9jYWNlcnQvcm9vdC1y My5jcnQwNgYDVR0fBC8wLTAroCmgJ4YlaHR0cDovL2NybC5nbG9iYWxzaWduLmNvbS9yb290LXIz LmNybDBMBgNVHSAERTBDMEEGCSsGAQQBoDIBKDA0MDIGCCsGAQUFBwIBFiZodHRwczovL3d3dy5n bG9iYWxzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5LzANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFAAOCAQEANyYcO+9JZYyqQt41 TMwvFWAw3vLoLOQIfIn48/yea/ekOcParTb0mbhsvVSZ6sGn+txYAZb33wIb1f4wK4xQ7+RUYBfI TuTPL7olF9hDpojC2F6Eu8nuEf1XD9qNI8zFd4kfjg4rb+AME0L81WaCL/WhP2kDCnRU4jm6TryB CHhZqtxkIvXGPGHjwJJazJBnX5NayIce4fGuUEJ7HkuCthVZ3Rws0UyHSAXesT/0tXATND4mNr1X El6adiSQy619ybVERnRi5aDe1PTwE+qNiotEEaeujz1a/+yYaaTY+k+qJcVxi7tbyQ0hi0UB3myM A/z2HmGEwO8hx7hDjKmKbDCCA18wggJHoAMCAQICCwQAAAAAASFYUwiiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBCwUA MEwxIDAeBgNVBAsTF0dsb2JhbFNpZ24gUm9vdCBDQSAtIFIzMRMwEQYDVQQKEwpHbG9iYWxTaWdu MRMwEQYDVQQDEwpHbG9iYWxTaWduMB4XDTA5MDMxODEwMDAwMFoXDTI5MDMxODEwMDAwMFowTDEg MB4GA1UECxMXR2xvYmFsU2lnbiBSb290IENBIC0gUjMxEzARBgNVBAoTCkdsb2JhbFNpZ24xEzAR BgNVBAMTCkdsb2JhbFNpZ24wggEiMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUAA4IBDwAwggEKAoIBAQDMJXaQeQZ4 Ihb1wIO2hMoonv0FdhHFrYhy/EYCQ8eyip0EXyTLLkvhYIJG4VKrDIFHcGzdZNHr9SyjD4I9DCuu l9e2FIYQebs7E4B3jAjhSdJqYi8fXvqWaN+JJ5U4nwbXPsnLJlkNc96wyOkmDoMVxu9bi9IEYMpJ pij2aTv2y8gokeWdimFXN6x0FNx04Druci8unPvQu7/1PQDhBjPogiuuU6Y6FnOM3UEOIDrAtKeh 6bJPkC4yYOlXy7kEkmho5TgmYHWyn3f/kRTvriBJ/K1AFUjRAjFhGV64l++td7dkmnq/X8ET75ti +w1s4FRpFqkD2m7pg5NxdsZphYIXAgMBAAGjQjBAMA4GA1UdDwEB/wQEAwIBBjAPBgNVHRMBAf8E BTADAQH/MB0GA1UdDgQWBBSP8Et/qC5FJK5NUPpjmove4t0bvDANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFAAOCAQEA S0DbwFCq/sgM7/eWVEVJu5YACUGssxOGhigHM8pr5nS5ugAtrqQK0/Xx8Q+Kv3NnSoPHRHt44K9u bG8DKY4zOUXDjuS5V2yq/BKW7FPGLeQkbLmUY/vcU2hnVj6DuM81IcPJaP7O2sJTqsyQiunwXUaM ld16WCgaLx3ezQA3QY/tRG3XUyiXfvNnBB4V14qWtNPeTCekTBtzc3b0F5nCH3oO4y0IrQocLP88 q1UOD5F+NuvDV0m+4S4tfGCLw0FREyOdzvcya5QBqJnnLDMfOjsl0oZAzjsshnjJYS8Uuu7bVW/f hO4FCU29KNhyztNiUGUe65KXgzHZs7XKR1g/XzCCBNAwggO4oAMCAQICEAG/h5ZiH7Y4815iq/th nt8wDQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQAwVDELMAkGA1UEBhMCQkUxGTAXBgNVBAoTEEdsb2JhbFNpZ24gbnYt c2ExKjAoBgNVBAMTIUdsb2JhbFNpZ24gQXRsYXMgUjMgU01JTUUgQ0EgMjAyMDAeFw0yMzA3MjMx MzIwNDRaFw0yNDAxMTkxMzIwNDRaMCAxHjAcBgkqhkiG9w0BCQEWD3ZpbnRAZ29vZ2xlLmNvbTCC ASIwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggEPADCCAQoCggEBALt6lfq1Df5y+axmhOcln+xEroS9ECyvXulr 0YJrYUFAfZWcMF4wHKBIaiJoRgigoH54oj0ZJONAwwHu5MsSbQOzA4xG9z7sQS2+COjdBbO3r6ZL XiFIejuawlzgjqbYPGHNjEvrtrTWYRIT/JJVQiQb4ydYYunqRYitbRQ7LmKgd0eEwHukcYdy9vko nlwMMCFxkOxzCnu118NIfFEEigR8+Iga1HX5cE6hiyCoE5GGC7vyQnNj7wYoKHZkan4yqTos+xir 1RZ4kS4q6gtOD5unmxmP0+Mq01txSBmRTJA/V/KAx1XW6Gff9woDrtQ4R5on/SHelnUotVKnznwL xLkCAwEAAaOCAdAwggHMMBoGA1UdEQQTMBGBD3ZpbnRAZ29vZ2xlLmNvbTAOBgNVHQ8BAf8EBAMC BaAwHQYDVR0lBBYwFAYIKwYBBQUHAwQGCCsGAQUFBwMCMB0GA1UdDgQWBBQrocHqVFFn5Qu8tf6r SIxBQtZIbTBMBgNVHSAERTBDMEEGCSsGAQQBoDIBKDA0MDIGCCsGAQUFBwIBFiZodHRwczovL3d3 dy5nbG9iYWxzaWduLmNvbS9yZXBvc2l0b3J5LzAMBgNVHRMBAf8EAjAAMIGaBggrBgEFBQcBAQSB jTCBijA+BggrBgEFBQcwAYYyaHR0cDovL29jc3AuZ2xvYmFsc2lnbi5jb20vY2EvZ3NhdGxhc3Iz c21pbWVjYTIwMjAwSAYIKwYBBQUHMAKGPGh0dHA6Ly9zZWN1cmUuZ2xvYmFsc2lnbi5jb20vY2Fj ZXJ0L2dzYXRsYXNyM3NtaW1lY2EyMDIwLmNydDAfBgNVHSMEGDAWgBR8zApo16LrHixyG9HNXZVv jfvyYzBGBgNVHR8EPzA9MDugOaA3hjVodHRwOi8vY3JsLmdsb2JhbHNpZ24uY29tL2NhL2dzYXRs YXNyM3NtaW1lY2EyMDIwLmNybDANBgkqhkiG9w0BAQsFAAOCAQEAUbN/EBRBmbSQuzm5OOKc6wiX tZO+O3+f8oGtpWESn5tLpBnxMB90r+2PoMMREKPrK2JvNJeEaLs4cSbB7GPrhnY6t3UoXq2Z37Wj oKAQUDTbvkf2bTKtwbjukQ07Hm/DLbjWi3PvjmCLfqGWiJbOSk2AhMIgm8LtIpZG2MxRKZ2lDBDS CUN44mnyUBKh219itnfcYBbpm4xTV5tcMBtdy/eyWtVkQF4SqUXVpA8ZxTYi79AmUxm6+vdMmfTa 4B4uRAmHf5CTXxTxFeWa9h3DGWzWXptgT1QS1SeDKU/ylauO1iWxy8t9si4pRsyWdAGneHgATocU 7tew5FshRKvVpDGCAmowggJmAgEBMGgwVDELMAkGA1UEBhMCQkUxGTAXBgNVBAoTEEdsb2JhbFNp Z24gbnYtc2ExKjAoBgNVBAMTIUdsb2JhbFNpZ24gQXRsYXMgUjMgU01JTUUgQ0EgMjAyMAIQAb+H lmIftjjzXmKr+2Ge3zANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFAKCB1DAvBgkqhkiG9w0BCQQxIgQgebJgjeIFZzyP mcvPVbhXOT1nFOhGsP3JxkOdSyJaK9AwGAYJKoZIhvcNAQkDMQsGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAcBgkqhkiG 9w0BCQUxDxcNMjMwOTIzMDE0ODA1WjBpBgkqhkiG9w0BCQ8xXDBaMAsGCWCGSAFlAwQBKjALBglg hkgBZQMEARYwCwYJYIZIAWUDBAECMAoGCCqGSIb3DQMHMAsGCSqGSIb3DQEBCjALBgkqhkiG9w0B AQcwCwYJYIZIAWUDBAIBMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBAQUABIIBALnctDKc/ydUCFkF6HUuJz5ZxLd+8O0K MZr2lCim5O+uOE5EdgH6mI9AlmTDMgKJZU/gkYncQyH7u2KHuEu0BiAcdDDm+oABNjk6ITVwG0xN GzK/bzSvZsSvj0Dx6GG9NtKwYf3HE87mO2401SmK2/vqfaNHSgtfAy74muYr+3+DbkP/YD0z8auW 9iKccWTl1Y4P0+KpOK3NRKQkbOzT90ilEds0xzmZRmW1DqRtqwKNMK8vhVv0M61/4YxNa9xqL1lC PyJJu4bjopkvQqFKahvnn/d0mhOzq2MA8ERUjBlan0gs+oPppVePrRiGWAkR/HDcjyFqYBw/cflv pA8ma/w= --00000000000097b3ae0605fcea55--