Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian army?

[Vint Cerf <vint@google.com>]

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if you need real-time for video and control, that can add up ...

v


On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 2:01 PM Dave Taht via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 10:57 AM Nathan Owens via Starlink
> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> > Elon posted a graph, it showed a peak of 7000GB per unit time, the only
> one that makes sense to me is per hour, which is 15Gbps peak -- not a huge
> amount.
>
> You really don't need much data for C&C traffic. You do need a fairly
> reliable uplink, but the observed jitter on an otherwise idle link was
> in the few ms range.
>
> GPSD has a udp output mode, too.
>
> (btw, to my knowledge, starlink has not enabled any network interfaces
> to the outside to their internal on-dish gps chip, which
>  when I was whinging about it, would provide perfect time to
> downstream clients, either natively or via ntp)
>
> It's one very short message, per second.
>
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 10:50 AM Steve Stroh via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> I’m speculating, but given that Starlink is THE communications
> infrastructure for much of Ukraine, then the scaling of the ground stations
> to provide that level of service must be a significant expense. To provide
> that much bandwidth would require deploying a lot of ground stations, each
> with expensive hardware, power infrastructure (including backup), fiber
> backhaul, skilled labor, and no small amount of fiber bandwidth that SpaceX
> has to pay SOMEONE to provide.
> >>
> >> Not to mention that anything SpaceX deploys to support Ukraine is a
> resource that it could have used for speeding up revenue generation in
> lucrative markets like the US.
> >>
> >> On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 12:41 David Lang via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> If spacex is providing the high-end/business grade service to all
> terminals
> >>> that they normally charge $4500/month for, reimbursement should be
> based on
> >>> that.
> >>>
> >>> Base it on the normal service pricing, not on cost-plus (if it were
> based on
> >>> cost-plus it would be an utter windfall for SpaceX as they are still
> in the
> >>> stage of building the service, and so there is a much higher spend
> rate to
> >>> expand the service at this point than the ongoing maintinance of it)
> >>>
> >>> while the satellites do support that area, they also support the rest
> of the
> >>> service, and if they weren't supporting Ukraine, there wouldn't be any
> fewer
> >>> satellites launched.
> >>>
> >>> I've seen too many games played with 'fully loaded costs' (sometimes
> backfiring
> >>> on the people tinkering with the numbers), and so it's something I
> watch out
> >>> for.
> >>>
> >>> lies, damn lies, and statistics, 'fully loaded costs' tend to be heavy
> on
> >>> statistics ;-)
> >>>
> >>> David Lang
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, tom@evslin.com wrote:
> >>>
> >>> > Putting aside the timing of Elon's complaint about cost right after
> the spat over his Ukrainian "peace plan", It is certainly reasonable for
> Starlink to get paid like other weapon suppliers who didn't give out free
> samples to prove their usefulness, Given that they should be reimbursed
> based on loaded cost plus profit like anyone else. I'm sure the other
> suppliers allocate their overhead costs when pricing weapon systems. They'd
> be out of business otherwise. The satellites are part of Starlink's fixed
> overhead so a portion of their costs should be allocated to service
> provided in Ukraine.
> >>> >
> >>> > All that being said, it would be terrible if Ukraine got less than
> the best support that can be provided.
> >>> >
> >>> > -----Original Message-----
> >>> > From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf
> Of David Lang via Starlink
> >>> > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 1:28 PM
> >>> > To: Kurtis Heimerl <kheimerl@cs.washington.edu>
> >>> > Cc: Starlink list <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
> >>> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the
> Ukrainian army?
> >>> >
> >>> > Having now read more info on this, less significant than the $80m
> total figure is the $20m/month figure he quoted. With 15k dishes as the
> figure that they sent (separate from whatever has been purchased on the
> commercial side), that works out to 1.3k/dish/month, which is very high.
> >>> >
> >>> > now, not being able to deploy reliable ground stations inside
> Ukraine could be driving up costs, plus the ongoing battle against jamming.
> But in his tweet he also cites satellite costs, which should not be
> allocated as "Ukraine related"
> >>> > costs (and I don't think the cyberdefense and jamming defense work
> should be
> >>> > either)
> >>> >
> >>> > David Lang
> >>> >
> >>> > On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, Kurtis Heimerl via Starlink wrote:
> >>> >
> >>> >> This thread (https://twitter.com/dim0kq/status/1580827171903635456)
> >>> >> strongly argues that Starlink is largely paid for their service, at
> >>> >> least on the consumer side. I imagine there are significant
> >>> >> operational expenses in dealing with the various actors involved but
> >>> >> not on the basic model.
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 9:06 AM Juliusz Chroboczek via Starlink
> >>> >> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>>> In essence, once you give something away for free, not even
> setting
> >>> >>>> the expectation that it’s a “freemium” model, it’s very hard to
> get
> >>> >>>> out of it. If you then claim your costs are way higher than what
> >>> >>>> analysis work out, eyebrows raise way above the hairline.
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> Uh.  Hmm.
> >>> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> >>> Starlink mailing list
> >>> >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >>> >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> >>> >> _______________________________________________
> >>> >> Starlink mailing list
> >>> >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> >>> >
> >>> >_______________________________________________
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> >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
> >>
> >> --
> >> Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his)
> >> Editor
> >> Zero Retries Newsletter - https://zeroretries.substack.com
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >
> > _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
> --
> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
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until further notice

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