From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wr1-x436.google.com (mail-wr1-x436.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::436]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E41E3B29D for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 14:29:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-wr1-x436.google.com with SMTP id f11so15190414wrm.6 for ; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 11:29:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=FqLUcMOaQAf0ZQ6gF4q32Zip/IHXXiYw08xdKsKeAzo=; b=dPYimxIYFiAJ5EkW+Gwn3k0RcnFvKh/YLIaZBD2bwsgxX7OcFm3BCcfhovZdt6XJiv i6lWoUGNIR6c0dqR52xexTRCxnwL5fmqm8K7S1UGsEIPojQ0VjXsw2+KtUs8i13j50xv vMJGsjUUWVx/jyma/QXWVJ6HupByVuWgkYSVi+QmUKJzwTSGQc6jFt26dKiIG2KlJCO1 aoN/i/IPPlssk9MOS+vTbNneuhK/JGuNxoawvM1qcKO0o9kVhKuv48ypTISqV15YGjrR anDAkgAb2OeaQqI0XNVtF3MJzCpyBObCf84hNSBdWkfKKmeXE0vf0izgGXnflTtNsgFl NA9w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=FqLUcMOaQAf0ZQ6gF4q32Zip/IHXXiYw08xdKsKeAzo=; b=pKbh+HpNeM48p/mJwe7wAX8HMwvDj+piAPf4UXeKiX/iPY8H/XX/Zb0nj8B6LbuHiQ a7HlYGjEVR3RzFuksILxIEUqKg8qvM5C+DMKDXUnZfHftZGGddopPCa3auEQiKY2r4sS TWiJ7JC+qnKYS+gtGkBHAFunViRIhhuX4eY0ZYejoVaw7FXCqLHromXcC//M+gZGWlGR 29C06dMPnAX/wfekwYJdHuVo9S+7LkoayMXlTQUTRD/EVTiLw8/F0mU+4QnxZlcVLrZQ cOMkpvSUMv+ocsVNeRurwgsrZYYDn8k77Uqa3DmYjhrJ1LEDkFuP5JgXV1Hwa/81Yw3g 3iDA== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf1AsFkKTYxch7Q9fDKyc1JpKiDJgkdpxGgRhDqcdVBVBFY1dofJ 4ntKi/EFtQFFgliHtk6kok36tpNln0W/QqCH5UX2Cepcwgg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM5cju5WF4MNmIufNAXJRl54KvEDh3YmTf2k6iXXoo6R3cZRz6SewLwSbMiI3BwyN4CICznqPx1z9pXaHdj6xEY= X-Received: by 2002:a5d:530b:0:b0:22e:3e8c:45aa with SMTP id e11-20020a5d530b000000b0022e3e8c45aamr4472023wrv.321.1665944971956; Sun, 16 Oct 2022 11:29:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <8735bqpq1r.wl-jch@irif.fr> <38522124-6d3b-4ac8-bb20-92bfa35dc9fe@Spark> <87tu46o8e3.wl-jch@irif.fr> <3ea89257-d5f8-4fa9-a90a-c73d49d2a9e2@Spark> <87r0zao0f0.wl-jch@irif.fr> <398208s8-6080-r8q7-s6rs-q9np11428n3o@ynat.uz> <12bfd01d8e001$03cf0e40$0b6d2ac0$@evslin.com> In-Reply-To: From: Vint Cerf Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 14:29:20 -0400 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: Nathan Owens , Starlink list Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="0000000000004c2b3705eb2b0ad5" Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the Ukrainian army? X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2022 18:29:33 -0000 --0000000000004c2b3705eb2b0ad5 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000453ff605eb2b0a51" --000000000000453ff605eb2b0a51 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable if you need real-time for video and control, that can add up ... v On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 2:01 PM Dave Taht via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 10:57 AM Nathan Owens via Starlink > wrote: > > > > Elon posted a graph, it showed a peak of 7000GB per unit time, the only > one that makes sense to me is per hour, which is 15Gbps peak -- not a hug= e > amount. > > You really don't need much data for C&C traffic. You do need a fairly > reliable uplink, but the observed jitter on an otherwise idle link was > in the few ms range. > > GPSD has a udp output mode, too. > > (btw, to my knowledge, starlink has not enabled any network interfaces > to the outside to their internal on-dish gps chip, which > when I was whinging about it, would provide perfect time to > downstream clients, either natively or via ntp) > > It's one very short message, per second. > > > > > On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 10:50 AM Steve Stroh via Starlink < > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> > >> I=E2=80=99m speculating, but given that Starlink is THE communications > infrastructure for much of Ukraine, then the scaling of the ground statio= ns > to provide that level of service must be a significant expense. To provid= e > that much bandwidth would require deploying a lot of ground stations, eac= h > with expensive hardware, power infrastructure (including backup), fiber > backhaul, skilled labor, and no small amount of fiber bandwidth that Spac= eX > has to pay SOMEONE to provide. > >> > >> Not to mention that anything SpaceX deploys to support Ukraine is a > resource that it could have used for speeding up revenue generation in > lucrative markets like the US. > >> > >> On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 12:41 David Lang via Starlink < > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >>> > >>> If spacex is providing the high-end/business grade service to all > terminals > >>> that they normally charge $4500/month for, reimbursement should be > based on > >>> that. > >>> > >>> Base it on the normal service pricing, not on cost-plus (if it were > based on > >>> cost-plus it would be an utter windfall for SpaceX as they are still > in the > >>> stage of building the service, and so there is a much higher spend > rate to > >>> expand the service at this point than the ongoing maintinance of it) > >>> > >>> while the satellites do support that area, they also support the rest > of the > >>> service, and if they weren't supporting Ukraine, there wouldn't be an= y > fewer > >>> satellites launched. > >>> > >>> I've seen too many games played with 'fully loaded costs' (sometimes > backfiring > >>> on the people tinkering with the numbers), and so it's something I > watch out > >>> for. > >>> > >>> lies, damn lies, and statistics, 'fully loaded costs' tend to be heav= y > on > >>> statistics ;-) > >>> > >>> David Lang > >>> > >>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, tom@evslin.com wrote: > >>> > >>> > Putting aside the timing of Elon's complaint about cost right after > the spat over his Ukrainian "peace plan", It is certainly reasonable for > Starlink to get paid like other weapon suppliers who didn't give out free > samples to prove their usefulness, Given that they should be reimbursed > based on loaded cost plus profit like anyone else. I'm sure the other > suppliers allocate their overhead costs when pricing weapon systems. They= 'd > be out of business otherwise. The satellites are part of Starlink's fixed > overhead so a portion of their costs should be allocated to service > provided in Ukraine. > >>> > > >>> > All that being said, it would be terrible if Ukraine got less than > the best support that can be provided. > >>> > > >>> > -----Original Message----- > >>> > From: Starlink On Behalf > Of David Lang via Starlink > >>> > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 1:28 PM > >>> > To: Kurtis Heimerl > >>> > Cc: Starlink list > >>> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to the > Ukrainian army? > >>> > > >>> > Having now read more info on this, less significant than the $80m > total figure is the $20m/month figure he quoted. With 15k dishes as the > figure that they sent (separate from whatever has been purchased on the > commercial side), that works out to 1.3k/dish/month, which is very high. > >>> > > >>> > now, not being able to deploy reliable ground stations inside > Ukraine could be driving up costs, plus the ongoing battle against jammin= g. > But in his tweet he also cites satellite costs, which should not be > allocated as "Ukraine related" > >>> > costs (and I don't think the cyberdefense and jamming defense work > should be > >>> > either) > >>> > > >>> > David Lang > >>> > > >>> > On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, Kurtis Heimerl via Starlink wrote: > >>> > > >>> >> This thread (https://twitter.com/dim0kq/status/1580827171903635456= ) > >>> >> strongly argues that Starlink is largely paid for their service, a= t > >>> >> least on the consumer side. I imagine there are significant > >>> >> operational expenses in dealing with the various actors involved b= ut > >>> >> not on the basic model. > >>> >> > >>> >> On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 9:06 AM Juliusz Chroboczek via Starlink > >>> >> wrote: > >>> >>> > >>> >>>> In essence, once you give something away for free, not even > setting > >>> >>>> the expectation that it=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9Cfreemium=E2=80=9D m= odel, it=E2=80=99s very hard to > get > >>> >>>> out of it. If you then claim your costs are way higher than what > >>> >>>> analysis work out, eyebrows raise way above the hairline. > >>> >>> > >>> >>> Uh. Hmm. > >>> >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> >>> Starlink mailing list > >>> >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>> >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > >>> >> _______________________________________________ > >>> >> Starlink mailing list > >>> >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > >>> > > >>> >_______________________________________________ > >>> Starlink mailing list > >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > >> > >> -- > >> Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his) > >> Editor > >> Zero Retries Newsletter - https://zeroretries.substack.com > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Starlink mailing list > >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > -- > This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work: > > https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-698136666= 5607352320-FXtz > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --=20 Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice --000000000000453ff605eb2b0a51 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
if you need real-time for video and control, that can add = up ...

v


On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 2:0= 1 PM Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 10:57 AM Natha= n Owens via Starlink
<sta= rlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> Elon posted a graph, it showed a peak of 7000GB per unit time, the onl= y one that makes sense to me is per hour, which is 15Gbps peak -- not a hug= e amount.

You really don't need much data for C&C traffic. You do need a fair= ly
reliable uplink, but the observed jitter on an otherwise idle link was
in the few ms range.

GPSD has a udp output mode, too.

(btw, to my knowledge, starlink has not enabled any network interfaces
to the outside to their internal on-dish gps chip, which
=C2=A0when I was whinging about it, would provide perfect time to
downstream clients, either natively or via ntp)

It's one very short message, per second.

>
> On Sun, Oct 16, 2022 at 10:50 AM Steve Stroh via Starlink <starlink@lists= .bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>
>> I=E2=80=99m speculating, but given that Starlink is THE communicat= ions infrastructure for much of Ukraine, then the scaling of the ground sta= tions to provide that level of service must be a significant expense. To pr= ovide that much bandwidth would require deploying a lot of ground stations,= each with expensive hardware, power infrastructure (including backup), fib= er backhaul, skilled labor, and no small amount of fiber bandwidth that Spa= ceX has to pay SOMEONE to provide.
>>
>> Not to mention that anything SpaceX deploys to support Ukraine is = a resource that it could have used for speeding up revenue generation in lu= crative markets like the US.
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 12:41 David Lang via Starlink <starlink@lists= .bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> If spacex is providing the high-end/business grade service to = all terminals
>>> that they normally charge $4500/month for, reimbursement shoul= d be based on
>>> that.
>>>
>>> Base it on the normal service pricing, not on cost-plus (if it= were based on
>>> cost-plus it would be an utter windfall for SpaceX as they are= still in the
>>> stage of building the service, and so there is a much higher s= pend rate to
>>> expand the service at this point than the ongoing maintinance = of it)
>>>
>>> while the satellites do support that area, they also support t= he rest of the
>>> service, and if they weren't supporting Ukraine, there wou= ldn't be any fewer
>>> satellites launched.
>>>
>>> I've seen too many games played with 'fully loaded cos= ts' (sometimes backfiring
>>> on the people tinkering with the numbers), and so it's som= ething I watch out
>>> for.
>>>
>>> lies, damn lies, and statistics, 'fully loaded costs' = tend to be heavy on
>>> statistics ;-)
>>>
>>> David Lang
>>>
>>> On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, tom@evslin.com wrote:
>>>
>>> > Putting aside the timing of Elon's complaint about co= st right after the spat over his Ukrainian "peace plan", It is ce= rtainly reasonable for Starlink to get paid like other weapon suppliers who= didn't give out free samples to prove their usefulness, Given that the= y should be reimbursed based on loaded cost plus profit like anyone else. I= 'm sure the other suppliers allocate their overhead costs when pricing = weapon systems. They'd be out of business otherwise. The satellites are= part of Starlink's fixed overhead so a portion of their costs should b= e allocated to service provided in Ukraine.
>>> >
>>> > All that being said, it would be terrible if Ukraine got = less than the best support that can be provided.
>>> >
>>> > -----Original Message-----
>>> > From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.ne= t> On Behalf Of David Lang via Starlink
>>> > Sent: Friday, October 14, 2022 1:28 PM
>>> > To: Kurtis Heimerl <kheimerl@cs.washington.edu>
>>> > Cc: Starlink list <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
>>> > Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink no longer available to t= he Ukrainian army?
>>> >
>>> > Having now read more info on this, less significant than = the $80m total figure is the $20m/month figure he quoted. With 15k dishes a= s the figure that they sent (separate from whatever has been purchased on t= he commercial side), that works out to 1.3k/dish/month, which is very high.=
>>> >
>>> > now, not being able to deploy reliable ground stations in= side Ukraine could be driving up costs, plus the ongoing battle against jam= ming. But in his tweet he also cites satellite costs, which should not be a= llocated as "Ukraine related"
>>> > costs (and I don't think the cyberdefense and jamming= defense work should be
>>> > either)
>>> >
>>> > David Lang
>>> >
>>> > On Fri, 14 Oct 2022, Kurtis Heimerl via Starlink wrote: >>> >
>>> >> This thread (https://twit= ter.com/dim0kq/status/1580827171903635456)
>>> >> strongly argues that Starlink is largely paid for the= ir service, at
>>> >> least on the consumer side. I imagine there are signi= ficant
>>> >> operational expenses in dealing with the various acto= rs involved but
>>> >> not on the basic model.
>>> >>
>>> >> On Fri, Oct 14, 2022 at 9:06 AM Juliusz Chroboczek vi= a Starlink
>>> >> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> In essence, once you give something away for = free, not even setting
>>> >>>> the expectation that it=E2=80=99s a =E2=80=9C= freemium=E2=80=9D model, it=E2=80=99s very hard to get
>>> >>>> out of it. If you then claim your costs are w= ay higher than what
>>> >>>> analysis work out, eyebrows raise way above t= he hairline.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Uh.=C2=A0 Hmm.
>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> Starlink mailing list
>>> >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.n= et/listinfo/starlink
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Starlink mailing list
>>> >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/l= istinfo/starlink
>>> >
>>> >_______________________________________________
>>> Starlink mailing list
>>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/s= tarlink
>>
>> --
>> Steve Stroh N8GNJ (he / him / his)
>> Editor
>> Zero Retries Newsletter - https://zeroretries.substack.com<= /a>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starl= ink
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> St= arlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<= /a>



--
This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
https://www.= linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXt= z
Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


--
Please send any postal/ove= rnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
<= div>1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346

<= /div>

until further notice


=

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