From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-wm1-x32f.google.com (mail-wm1-x32f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::32f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B7EA3B29E for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 05:37:24 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-wm1-x32f.google.com with SMTP id j9-20020a05600c190900b0037bff8a24ebso1433854wmq.4 for ; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 02:37:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/OqwdloqTED2a0aAuo/wEFXxzVaW51ur1ds7huCXRqM=; b=cL+kMDcumnEPa8BHeQR/86TAxveTT/Osnksae9ynPiV77IH/Jt8/ZKLiYq+8DZM8pg mCuUxKs/OWt1Ji30HRYayw2MCDW9/k8kjVOpipe3BBP1B9inPCRLRgRU5Sj8YntQqtRe JJ2bCuK85yYRTuMUqzKMH60w90mfhBXBqDdE3BKHNMR6GSkez1X7zHnDfAYLWJUNWmvK zQCIdFVhijqfyhkX/WgEYyVCXbtt6nD3rkytqclNIE2ivTQI6LI8CjjoFjHTYHZcTmNk wb8BVT2rsMrf/jI3aqtKWn8jLfMPc44qswWsI2suc5wEUiI0UtiCmgjt9+xX40PSSmn2 5W7g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/OqwdloqTED2a0aAuo/wEFXxzVaW51ur1ds7huCXRqM=; b=INgVep5rGrehyrvLgLNZrS9KpeSKbtozcnJaXG1pjWpcY8g4KClqIQk/xj2pfZNdrK SJFimpqeA7LR+UJeAoL8t+1mdS9PDvj/5ZNIJYHecmkNoO1vbEe3xxl02uNbDw++VGlu hOdt5Tvg9s6mgrO55fSEuYheY/I7sqngjmVcVWKZITQGBnc+jh665ZJYr0cxiI7S6Whn GxOZqJlWsjjXAFmLTlZ/M5OjEvZZbwLNZpeP2xVpQIE5uUrXlQSo8+G+b56hSwtKuB0h IpirIN0rEdhXHeef19G4WC5n1D7TczvJDOBRZY/TLpS3w4t/OSh/FCUS3BEBJ7Wq7Yze mTcA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531/dqrzFtZ4wpVcXiweFc7he9c3gmEj98NH83icYtwobinzxXpz htBItuMEULWFZ3/rjRHrWJedAlo5tV2mNa1e+Wos+A== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwYflcziMSEVAEnwGYUMfsfhxNz7Nvzsm5OzHFxsThuGaYtzk29giF9gy1z45dR27fW4Xkl28nNZObN8h3dpkY= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:4e08:0:b0:37b:ddc5:dca7 with SMTP id g8-20020a1c4e08000000b0037bddc5dca7mr2829548wmh.100.1645526242553; Tue, 22 Feb 2022 02:37:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1p492142-q944-r494-6s6r-p6q37s57qnq4@ynat.uz> <1F1EB112F8CB446FAB4BF308A76955FA@SRA6> <0ac195f5-3668-4c96-8dec-8a2d59a0bd52@Spark> <866405-s043-n12n-6pqs-46o38r189218@ynat.uz> <38pr9p5s-3ro4-49p9-9535-7o92oqrq62r1@ynat.uz> <80753e77-f7ba-466f-8222-66c16059f600@Spark> <66B75B7A-82DF-4A92-BC74-CB0422E2BABC@gmx.de> <0ecefa3c-da5c-48c6-b60d-e2e121d1319c@Spark> <282F58AF-C9A9-4438-AB82-34C717384DBE@gmx.de> In-Reply-To: From: Vint Cerf Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 05:37:10 -0500 Message-ID: To: Mike Puchol Cc: Sebastian Moeller , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net, Daniel AJ Sokolov Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="0000000000002e24a705d898efd4" Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Roaming X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2022 10:37:24 -0000 --0000000000002e24a705d898efd4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000285ae505d898ef49" --000000000000285ae505d898ef49 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable pun intended? Mynaric is one of the more visible ones. :-) v On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 5:01 AM Mike Puchol wrote: > It all depends on the power. We operate FSOC terminals that can do 20 Gbp= s > at 20km+, and are eye-safe (un-aided, if you look at one using binoculars= , > different story). > > Power also depends on receiver sensitivity, if you can reconstruct a > signal from less photons, your power requirements drop, and efficiency > increases. There is a lot of research going on in this field, and there a= re > many companies that are trying to get into the ground-to-air optical link > game. Mynaric is one of the more visible ones. > > Best, > > Mike > On Feb 22, 2022, 12:46 +0300, Sebastian Moeller , wrote: > > > > On Feb 22, 2022, at 10:40, Mike Puchol wrote: > > The optical links work in IR spectrum, so non-visible. They would not be = a > concern for aircraft the same way green lasers are. > > > Puzzled. IR lasers still wreck havoc when hitting the eye/retina, so why > are these considered safer than visible spectrum lasers? In a lab context > IR lasers are typically considered more dangerous as they are invisible a= nd > hence harder to see/avoid. I am happy to believe that there is a reason w= hy > they are safer, just trying ot reconcile that with my laser-safety semina= r > ;) > > > On David=E2=80=99s comment "but if you can easily route traffic to a grou= nd > station that's further away and not currently saturated=E2=80=9D, that is= true as > long as the path that is connected over ISL has visibility of that other > ground station. I will add ISL to my tracker shortly so we can start > simulating these things. > > Best, > > Mike > On Feb 22, 2022, 12:04 +0300, Sebastian Moeller , wrote: > > Intersting! > > Silly question, giving that there are already law suits for people > pointing lasers at airplanes, how are these commercial laster terminals > avoiding that issue? > > Regards > Sebastian > > > > > On Feb 22, 2022, at 08:42, Mike Puchol wrote: > > I did over-simplify so the point was better understood. On the optical > gateways, these exist already: > https://mynaric.com/products/ground-capabilities/ > > Once you have an optical mesh in orbit, the only practical way to provide > it with massive capacity is optical links - there isn=E2=80=99t enough ra= dio > spectrum that would do it (without a massive ground gateway network with > enough physical separation). You can create a network of optical gateways > that guarantees a number of them will not be impared by cloud cover at an= y > given time. Optical has the advantage of being license-free, too. > > Best, > > Mike > On Feb 22, 2022, 10:20 +0300, Dick Roy , wrote: > > > > From: Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Behalf > Of Mike Puchol > Sent: Monday, February 21, 2022 9:35 PM > To: Daniel AJ Sokolov; David Lang > Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Roaming > > > Actually, laser links would make gateway connectivity *worse*. If we take > the scenario attached, one gateway is suddenly having to serve traffic fr= om > all UTs that were not previously under coverage. > > A satellite under full load can saturate two gateway links by itself. If > you load, say, 20 satellites in an orbital plane, onto a single gateway, > over ISL, you effectively have 5% of each satellite=E2=80=99s capacity av= ailable > (given an equal distribution of demand, of course there will be satellite= s > with no UTs to cover etc.). > > [RR] I think to do this analysis correctly; one needs to consider the > larger system and the time-varying loads on the components thereof. What > you say is true; just a bit over-simplified to be maximally useful. Routi= ng > through complex congested networks is well-studied problem and hnts at > possible solutions can probably be found thereJ) > > > > Eventually they will go for optical gateways, it=E2=80=99s the only way t= o get > enough capacity to the constellation, specially the 30k satellite version= . > > [RR] What do you mean by =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9Doptical gateway=E2=80=9D? An o= ptical link from the > satellite to the ground station? That would be real expensive at least > power-wise and unreliable. > > > Best, > > Mike > > On Feb 22, 2022, 05:17 +0300, David Lang , wrote: > > > On Mon, 21 Feb 2022, Daniel AJ Sokolov wrote: > > > On 2022-02-21 at 13:52, David Lang wrote: > > > > They told me that I could try it, and it may work, may be degraded a > bit, or may not work at all. They do plan to add roaming capabilities in > the future (my guess is that the laser satellites will enable a lot more > flexibility) > > > Isn't that a very optimistic assessment? :-) > > Laser links are great for remote locations with very few users, but how > could they relieve overbooking of Starlink in areas with too many users? > > The laser links can reduce the required density of ground stations, but > they don't add capacity to the network. Any ground station not built > thanks to laser links adds load to other ground stations - and, maybe > more importantly, adds load to the satellite that does eventually > connect to a ground station. > > Can laser links really help on a large scale, or are they just a small > help here and there? > > > My thinking is that the laser links will make it possible to route the > traffic > from wherever I am to the appropriate ground station that I'm registered > with as > opposed to the current bent-pipe approach where, if I move to far from my > registered location, I need to talk to a different ground station. > > Currently there are two limits in any area for coverage: > > 1. satellite bandwidth > 2. ground station bandwidth > > laser links will significantly reduce the effect of the second one. > > We know that they can do mobile dishes (they are testing it currently on > Elon's > gulfstream, FAR more mobile that I will ever be :-) ) > > David Lang > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --=20 Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf 1435 Woodhurst Blvd McLean, VA 22102 703-448-0965 until further notice --000000000000285ae505d898ef49 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
pun intended?
Mynaric is one of the more visible ones.=

:-)

v

=


On Tue, Feb 22, 2022 at 5:01 AM Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx> wrote:
It all depends on the power. We operate FSOC terminals th= at can do 20 Gbps at 20km+, and are eye-safe (un-aided, if you look at one = using binoculars, different story).

Power also depends on receiver sensitivity, if you can reconstruct a signal= from less photons, your power requirements drop, and efficiency increases.= There is a lot of research going on in this field, and there are many comp= anies that are trying to get into the ground-to-air optical link game. Myna= ric is one of the more visible ones.

Best,

Mike
On Feb 22, 2022, 12:46 +0300, Sebastian M= oeller <moeller0@gm= x.de>, wrote:


On Feb 22, 2022, at 10:40, Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx> wr= ote:

The optical links work in IR spectrum, so non-visible. They would not be a = concern for aircraft the same way green lasers are.

Puzzled. IR lasers still wreck havoc when hitting the eye/retina, so why ar= e these considered safer than visible spectrum lasers? In a lab context IR = lasers are typically considered more dangerous as they are invisible and he= nce harder to see/avoid. I am happy to believe that there is a reason why t= hey are safer, just trying ot reconcile that with my laser-safety seminar ;= )


On David=E2=80=99s comment "but if you can e= asily route traffic to a ground station that's further away and not cur= rently saturated=E2=80=9D, that is true as long as the path that is connect= ed over ISL has visibility of that other ground station. I will add ISL to = my tracker shortly so we can start simulating these things.

Best,

Mike
On Feb 22, 2022, 12:04 +0300, Sebastian Moeller <moeller0@gmx.de>, wrote:
Intersting!

Silly question, giving that there are already law suits for people pointing= lasers at airplanes, how are these commercial laster terminals avoiding th= at issue?

Regards
Sebastian




On Feb 22, 2022, at 08:42, Mike Puchol <mike@starlink.sx> wr= ote:

I did over-simplify so the point was better understood. On the optical gate= ways, these exist already: https://mynaric.com/products/ground-capabil= ities/

Once you have an optical mesh in orbit, the only practical way to provide i= t with massive capacity is optical links - there isn=E2=80=99t enough radio= spectrum that would do it (without a massive ground gateway network with e= nough physical separation). You can create a network of optical gateways th= at guarantees a number of them will not be impared by cloud cover at any gi= ven time. Optical has the advantage of being license-free, too.

Best,

Mike
On Feb 22, 2022, 10:20 +0300, Dick Roy <dickroy@alum.mit.edu>, wrote:


From: Starlink [mailto:starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net] On Beha= lf Of Mike Puchol
Sent: Monday, February 21, 2022 9:35 PM
To: Daniel AJ Sokolov; David Lang
Cc: sta= rlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink Roaming


Actually, laser links would make gateway connectivity *worse*. If we take t= he scenario attached, one gateway is suddenly having to serve traffic from = all UTs that were not previously under coverage.

A satellite under full load can saturate two gateway links by itself. If yo= u load, say, 20 satellites in an orbital plane, onto a single gateway, over= ISL, you effectively have 5% of each satellite=E2=80=99s capacity availabl= e (given an equal distribution of demand, of course there will be satellite= s with no UTs to cover etc.).

[RR] I think to do this analysis correctly; one needs to consider the large= r system and the time-varying loads on the components thereof. What you say= is true; just a bit over-simplified to be maximally useful. Routing throug= h complex congested networks is well-studied problem and hnts at possible s= olutions can probably be found thereJ)



Eventually they will go for optical gateways, it=E2=80=99s the only way to = get enough capacity to the constellation, specially the 30k satellite versi= on.

[RR] What do you mean by =E2=80=9C=E2=80=9Doptical gateway=E2=80=9D? An opt= ical link from the satellite to the ground station? That would be real expe= nsive at least power-wise and unreliable.


Best,

Mike

On Feb 22, 2022, 05:17 +0300, David Lang <david@lang.hm>, wrote:


On Mon, 21 Feb 2022, Daniel AJ Sokolov wrote:


On 2022-02-21 at 13:52, David Lang wrote:



They told me that I could try it, and it may work, may be degraded a
bit, or may not work at all. They do plan to add roaming capabilities in the future (my guess is that the laser satellites will enable a lot more flexibility)


Isn't that a very optimistic assessment? :-)

Laser links are great for remote locations with very few users, but how
could they relieve overbooking of Starlink in areas with too many users?
The laser links can reduce the required density of ground stations, but
they don't add capacity to the network. Any ground station not built thanks to laser links adds load to other ground stations - and, maybe
more importantly, adds load to the satellite that does eventually
connect to a ground station.

Can laser links really help on a large scale, or are they just a small
help here and there?


My thinking is that the laser links will make it possible to route the traf= fic
from wherever I am to the appropriate ground station that I'm registere= d with as
opposed to the current bent-pipe approach where, if I move to far from my registered location, I need to talk to a different ground station.

Currently there are two limits in any area for coverage:

1. satellite bandwidth
2. ground station bandwidth

laser links will significantly reduce the effect of the second one.

We know that they can do mobile dishes (they are testing it currently on El= on's
gulfstream, FAR more mobile that I will ever be :-) )

David Lang
_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


--
Please send any postal/ove= rnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
1435 Woodhurst Blvd=C2= =A0
McLean, VA 22102
703-448-0965

<= div>until further notice



=
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