From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lj1-x22a.google.com (mail-lj1-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72E463B29D for ; Tue, 8 Mar 2022 01:01:45 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-lj1-x22a.google.com with SMTP id q10so10899087ljc.7 for ; Mon, 07 Mar 2022 22:01:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7laOM0iU1O1L+zMUUkLfTS/XSFkyz5rRXWvjRcAJZeg=; b=VDkI4g3vhZPo8w5lcLv9CoEqWWxo6ucf5Ze+mIc6gyr7/+4ZknjqAJHzBpgWav21Jg igS2lYT9dmOS2GQJdrOs15C2wUEoS7+NPX2RN3/VrjR3Oj9fMustkk7CPUqV6NFSWH3s p0xGtXXTLzRkbc8h5crv+NeeMZVvvyncl69+RFbRI9YBwVhc6gKYuJYnQbAa29BIAE8F sTFht/cOBXnoASIDclaK1zdSps3OOmrUZA73mOatCMtWDMLKel3dppndgJqdiOADB/sJ RbMoKKXLv2Ft9wMvq6Tqps6pyvaP4c9V+uEUc7tQ1iDNZMF86rRBx0VjLIj/UKH5kX+b fVhg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7laOM0iU1O1L+zMUUkLfTS/XSFkyz5rRXWvjRcAJZeg=; b=V5jL1XlG60sogO4DKdpxfDCLteajuSPIIgUPLhI8qzM9RslEs3/EKC/68C8oaBOFgS Qn3kCduQn9zQC9r9xu444IV5Nw1C231coR29F/7wO+V2OCI7H5xCted78gNAxRekajA5 c71AQGCPWjywabhurTk+whdTRZQ5kvRyzui7FkggR3ElE6aMVWn028pqJe/eqL5ZnAcG +G9C5pcJKjqOU55V5NZ7n6YqW+l3TavY/Mu9T9bkJkP+w9m4SKoMgRiFH/w3JLmGj/zI ZCq2yj8dVvP2halQBXESAIx6zzLekm4dAjKgIMSnMO0XTnlYFR7YKLqqo/MYaDaFXMwy GkiA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533Wk3DUoJz9wEWBSJvNwdpa1c7Ejx5rZ6GVVF+bFNgtU8CGvH+8 aW0ptr9VtrYZrhdJZtCbJCbj2zUbhuINhW1q+LzdPDFXs8ATxw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyY0Or4c83PM4DaHfEl0qo5+bguWsHoQVcd5E6bSPbcrS93n3BgdpbK87xoA71dCpws0sdtdcrs77Q2Zif/dEo= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:210d:b0:247:ec72:d84b with SMTP id a13-20020a05651c210d00b00247ec72d84bmr2057844ljq.15.1646719303788; Mon, 07 Mar 2022 22:01:43 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1646527180.51036626@apps.rackspace.com> In-Reply-To: <1646527180.51036626@apps.rackspace.com> From: Inemesit Affia Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2022 07:01:29 +0100 Message-ID: To: "David P. Reed" Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000025aed805d9aeb7d1" Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink deplyment in Ukraine X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2022 06:01:45 -0000 --00000000000025aed805d9aeb7d1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" We already know what StarLink can and can't do. It's public knowledge and there's no need to insinuate nefarious motives. Musk won the Thailand case. He was trolled by a spelunker who I don't believe was involved in the rescue operation. Musk was asked to do the R&D for the submarine and was encouraged to continue by the lead cave diver. On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 01:39 David P. Reed wrote: > THis is a good discussion, and I hope for more. > > > > 1. I'm really curious how well Starlink's bent-pipe architecture actually > works in a context like Ukraine where fiber and copper infrastructure are > vulnerable and less redundant than in a place like the UK. I'm not so > worried about the dishy's working or being targeted. They can be moved and > disguised. What is not being discussed here (or anywhere) is where the > ground stations that the traffic must *all* traverse are, and the fact that > they are Single Points of Failure, and must be nailed down in places which > are close enough to the dishy they serve, and also fiber-backhauled into > the Internet. This is a serious technical issue that interests me, mostly > because Starlink doesn't publish its technical specs. > > > > So these ground stations for Ukrainian coverage are where? Ukraine is a > BIG area. It certainly won't be covered by one ground station. And it > certainly can't be just an 18-wheeler with a huge antenna on top, because > it needs to be connected to a point-of-presence with lots of capacity - the > sum of all the dishy's peak loads. > > > > I'm suspecting that some ground station is actually in Ukraine itself, but > putting it in Kyiv just makes it a tempting target (like a power station or > water utility), and it is much more vulnerable and visible to Russian > troops in the area. > > > > Now Poland and Moldova are potential sites that might cover part of > Ukraine, but certainly not that far into the country. > > > > 2. I hope that Starlink isn't just doing this to get Musk in the news, but > actually wants to facilitate ongoing connectivity to the Internet, > independent of "sides". (as others here have noted, communications control > is a very imprecise instrument when it is a tool of aggression - "virtue > signalling" by a billionaire who has been knowmid 1990's trying to bring > Internet connectivity to poor people in Jamaica and poro people in the West > Bank each partly caused the deaths of a few people we thought we were only > helping. But that's a long story in each context). > > > > More seriously, if Musk is not covering much of Ukraine at all, and just > shipping dishy's there, that's good, but I hope he doesn't try to take > credit for more than Starlink actually can do. I mean it would also be nice > if Mikrotik shipped in meshable WiFi, but that's of limited utility, even > if the most clever hackers tried to create an outdoor mesh of them. The > coverage would be very limited, and you still need a non-WiFi path to the > Internet to communicate over wide areas. > > > > I'm still appalled by Musk's actions when the Thai boys needed to be > rescued from a cave. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50667553 . > I hope he learned something when he was sued. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --00000000000025aed805d9aeb7d1 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We already know what StarLink can and can't do. = It's public knowledge and there's no need to insinuate nefarious mo= tives. Musk won the Thailand case. He was trolled by a spelunker who I don&= #39;t believe was involved in the rescue operation. Musk was asked to do th= e R&D for the submarine and was encouraged to continue by the lead cave= diver.=C2=A0

On Sun, Mar 6, 2022, 01:39 David P. Reed <dpreed@deepplum.com> wrote:

THis is a good discussion, and I = hope for more.

=C2=A0

1. I'm= really curious how well Starlink's bent-pipe architecture actually wor= ks in a context like Ukraine where fiber and copper infrastructure are vuln= erable and less redundant than in a place like the UK. I'm not so worri= ed about the dishy's working or being targeted. They can be moved and d= isguised. What is not being discussed here (or anywhere) is where the groun= d stations=C2=A0that the traffic must *all* traverse are, and the fact that= they are Single Points of Failure, and must be nailed down in places which= are close enough to the dishy they serve, and also fiber-backhauled into t= he Internet. This is a serious technical issue that interests me, mostly be= cause Starlink doesn't publish its technical specs.

=C2=A0

So these g= round stations for Ukrainian coverage are where? Ukraine is a BIG area. It = certainly won't be covered by one ground station. And it certainly can&= #39;t be just an 18-wheeler with a huge antenna on top, because it needs to= be connected to a point-of-presence with lots of capacity - the sum of all= the dishy's peak loads.

=C2=A0

I'm su= specting that some ground station is actually in Ukraine itself, but puttin= g it in Kyiv just makes it a tempting target (like a power station or water= utility), and it is much more vulnerable and visible to Russian troops in = the area.

=C2=A0

Now Poland= and Moldova are potential sites that might cover part of Ukraine, but cert= ainly not that far into the country.

=C2=A0

2. I hope = that Starlink isn't just doing this to get Musk in the news, but actual= ly wants to facilitate ongoing connectivity to the Internet, independent of= "sides". (as others here have noted, communications control is a= very imprecise instrument when it is a tool of aggression - "virtue s= ignalling" by a billionaire who has been knowmid 1990's trying to = bring Internet connectivity to poor people in Jamaica and poro people in th= e West Bank each partly caused the deaths of a few people we thought we wer= e only helping. But that's a long story in each context).

=C2=A0

More serio= usly, if Musk is not covering much of Ukraine at all, and just shipping dis= hy's there, that's good, but I hope he doesn't try to take cred= it for more than Starlink actually can do. I mean it would also be nice if = Mikrotik shipped in meshable WiFi, but that's of limited utility, even = if the most clever hackers tried to create an outdoor mesh of them. The cov= erage would be very limited, and you still need a non-WiFi path to the Inte= rnet to communicate over wide areas.

=C2=A0

I'm st= ill appalled by Musk's actions when the Thai boys needed to be rescued = from a cave.=C2=A0https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us= -canada-50667553=C2=A0. I hope he learned something when he was sued.

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

=C2=A0

= _______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/sta= rlink
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