From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-pj1-x1032.google.com (mail-pj1-x1032.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::1032]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7283E3B29D for ; Wed, 15 Nov 2023 01:59:51 -0500 (EST) Received: by mail-pj1-x1032.google.com with SMTP id 98e67ed59e1d1-28307847ea4so183918a91.2 for ; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 22:59:51 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1700031590; x=1700636390; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=KX/X8ijtCtkzXxzrYDcMEiii2GYS6K/+HqGZsbjlY2I=; b=dbX7PHz5dZ8lwjGx5uEoBKQMsOUUXJNNuR7StHVNnG7xcnFo+ULK+Zn3UUlV5SKHFJ hyFPl1/HMMwVW9aKYeeDhxcwAkR9qa0swUrfv2n/tIST2cbRxUsaKuy35f5upf8YZEDC dbD5eJ8mv3KKN8zFWXFrF5tSCU3yQEhLLQH3Sv1ZwuKnKW5ZcKPXrUqByPG0mwzeB9qH T6ewsvg4d+4O8oZ1IWk/yGC846LTkDYL3T0HtS93MOHTGKXHN1MWSpRRyCfeAmY0+0Mz hCCbeKR5xBALIY6kLJRsLWOOLmmdLerUa4d9OffFMfGmRjV8VLDYrH82FbyI24W+nGsY 1HGw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1700031590; x=1700636390; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=KX/X8ijtCtkzXxzrYDcMEiii2GYS6K/+HqGZsbjlY2I=; b=i5J11BJe0mzW8omghlBZcRBSL4sRajzXSk+hRFYF72Cdk9pOQYLrDOf+KJrCMAac6T xCsN7ZXSVUkWCwy8fqhpZb6qf/8y9j0ey3CYSThgjvNAynPfz2tR5lAr3uDPZeFUtviB cX6tjoV+ojD/c86EXZFoDtxp2vsoTIl8hT5YPHYvsmDweaw4jiPROwJHid6X3snL1oV0 yWEa8VLhgtPjYttD6pLGCVmznKwzLx4AZNPlSrXFju/wW5oKPl5cH4wOYYHOPRJlBPdA rGOVmWXM+c275Icm5d2SS+Gpj4Chu7U2m83oS8HXaghA6jZbmIbW7GodS/7a7c5G2kM5 4Wjw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxlSpwOLmvAHVHi7jKyCOBqCMmQmLR2B0y6RkplhCkzD3za+1ez xpUVBxiT5WIxcIuxuSiE3z0HwbL+2qeqjMmIsb+YBVqJvRs= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEd315RGeDHOxXZ1jXQJOrelNeXFAGZH6MDVsxFHqeOWMMYmpqyJMb5kru/reMDGK/UIXzFYeRQk7ZIeyIuiqc= X-Received: by 2002:a17:90a:191a:b0:27d:8ad:69f9 with SMTP id 26-20020a17090a191a00b0027d08ad69f9mr9810531pjg.2.1700031590272; Tue, 14 Nov 2023 22:59:50 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9c719a82-c988-4b26-8dca-8718fc500ed4@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <9c719a82-c988-4b26-8dca-8718fc500ed4@gmail.com> From: Inemesit Affia Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 07:59:36 +0100 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: Starlink Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000000b92da060a2b732e" Subject: Re: [Starlink] The curious case of the missing Starlink spectrum licences X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2023 06:59:51 -0000 --0000000000000b92da060a2b732e Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Use starlink.sx instead On Tue, Nov 14, 2023, 12:24 PM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > Le 13/11/2023 =C3=A0 02:27, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a =C3=A9crit : > > The other day I had reason to look up the Starlink spectrum licences > > in NZ. These are issued by Radio Spectrum Management in NZ and used to > > be in the Register of Radio Frequencies, which is publicly searchable: > > > > https://www.rsm.govt.nz/licensing/how-do-i/use-the-rrf/search-the-rrf/ > > > > Alas, this time, I've drawn an almost complete blank. None of the six > > known ground stations still have their licenses on the register. There > > are a few lone search suggestions for a licence "57321 PUWERA STARLINK > > SES", "56530 TE HANA STARLINK SES", "57189 CLEVEDON STARLINK SES", > > "57282 HINDS STARLINK SES", "56839 CROMWELL STARLINK SES", and "56383 > > AWARUA STARLINK SES" but these searches come up empty or with > > irrelevant results. Similarly, searching for any kind of satellite > > licence fails to find them. Similarly looking for "starlink", "space", > > or "spacex". > > > > Yet a traceroute from our Dishy shows that we're still landing in NZ. > > So that presumably means that the teleports are still operating here > > and that Starlink isn't backhauling via laser to elsewhere. > > > > Security? The locations of the teleports are well known, they're > > plastered all over the Internet and are visible on Google Maps/Earth. > > So they're probably not hiding the licences to disguise location. > > I think there is a problem with the names of locations of teleports > reported by these sites. I suggest to not take them seriously. > > For example, satellitemap.space shows for France a same photo for two > different locations of 2 teleports. > > I am not sure how they calculate the positions of the teleports and how > they report it? > > > > > Website dysfunction? Possible. NZ government department websites don't > > always work all that well. But I can also find plenty of other > > licences on the site, so it's not all that dysfunctional. > > > > Licence holder change? Then they should pop up under satellite > > spectrum licenses, but all the contenders there are the usual suspects > > (Inmarsat, Optus, Iridium, ...). No Starlink in Ku or Ka band. > > > > That makes me wonder: Is Elon not paying his fees? > > > > Anyone seeing anything similar where they are? > > > I did a search for France and starlink frequencies and city names, at > regulators ARCEP and at LegiFrance at gov't. There is also an EU > regulator to check, as well but I could not identify properly. > > I wanted to find precisely the allocated starlink frequencies and the > cities of teleports. > > I could not find definite answers, because: there were disputes in the > allocations and there are newcomers (Starlink-like LEO Internet > providers, civilian and military). There also oppinions from the public > at large that influence the decisions, typically related to health and > environmental risks. > > This is my interpretation of the current allocations: > > The freqs allocated to Starlink in France are: 10.95 GHz (in some docs > it's written 10.96 GHz) - 12.70 GHz, 14-14.5GHz, 17.7-19.3 GHz and 29.5 > - 30 GHz. > > https://www.arcep.fr/actualites/actualites-et-communiques/detail/n/freque= nces-180423.html > > Other constellation freqs that might overlap: > > The freqs considered for allocation to Thales (MCSAT or oneweb?, > allocated or still under consideration? remark potential overlaps with > starlink): 17.8 - 18.6 GHz, 18.8 - 19.3 GHz, 19.3 - 19.7 GHz. > https://www.arcep.fr/uploads/tx_gsavis/20-1409.pdf > > The freqs considered for allocation by law to Thales for "MCSAT-2 > LEO-2": 17.8-18.6, 18.8-20.2,19.7-20.2 (strange two times 20.2), > 27.5-30,29.5-30. > https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/id/JORFTEXT000043142179 > > There are some ARCEP consultations to the public about potential > allocations to OneWeb. > > Maybe these potential overlaps have already been fixed, I dont know. > > > The names of cities: > > The names of cities where starlink teleports might be situated > hardly appear in the freq allocation documents. One can see in the > starlink ARCEP allocations, maybe a city name like "Carros > (Alpes-Maritimes) ". There are maybe a few (3?) such city names in the > ARCEP docs. Or maybe I could not find them where they are. > > The official(?) geoip of starlink places indicate only one region > for France, e.g. "145.224.76.0/24,FR,FR-IDF,Paris". There are 28 such > entries for 'FR' and they are all "FR-IDF". It stands for =C3=8Ele de > France, a particular region in France. > https://geoip.starlinkisp.net/feed.csv > > The teleports shown by satellitemap.space for France are 2 and are > not situated in IdF (=C3=8Ele-de-France). > > It is incoherent: how many teleports are in France? Are they all > situated in IdF? > > Alex > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --0000000000000b92da060a2b732e Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Use starlink.sx i= nstead

On Tue, Nov 14, 2023, 12:24 PM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.ne= t> wrote:

Le 13/11/2023 =C3=A0 02:27, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:=
> The other day I had reason to look up the Starlink spectrum licences <= br> > in NZ. These are issued by Radio Spectrum Management in NZ and used to=
> be in the Register of Radio Frequencies, which is publicly searchable:=
>
> https://www.rs= m.govt.nz/licensing/how-do-i/use-the-rrf/search-the-rrf/
>
> Alas, this time, I've drawn an almost complete blank. None of the = six
> known ground stations still have their licenses on the register. There=
> are a few lone search suggestions for a licence "57321 PUWERA STA= RLINK
> SES", "56530 TE HANA STARLINK SES", "57189 CLEVEDO= N STARLINK SES",
> "57282 HINDS STARLINK SES", "56839 CROMWELL STARLINK SE= S", and "56383
> AWARUA STARLINK SES" but these searches come up empty or with > irrelevant results. Similarly, searching for any kind of satellite > licence fails to find them. Similarly looking for "starlink"= , "space",
> or "spacex".
>
> Yet a traceroute from our Dishy shows that we're still landing in = NZ.
> So that presumably means that the teleports are still operating here <= br> > and that Starlink isn't backhauling via laser to elsewhere.
>
> Security? The locations of the teleports are well known, they're <= br> > plastered all over the Internet and are visible on Google Maps/Earth. =
> So they're probably not hiding the licences to disguise location.<= br>
I think there is a problem with the names of locations of teleports
reported by these sites.=C2=A0 I suggest to not take them seriously.

For example, satellitemap.space shows for France a same phot= o for two
different locations of 2 teleports.

I am not sure how they calculate the positions of the teleports and how they report it?

>
> Website dysfunction? Possible. NZ government department websites don&#= 39;t
> always work all that well. But I can also find plenty of other
> licences on the site, so it's not all that dysfunctional.
>
> Licence holder change? Then they should pop up under satellite
> spectrum licenses, but all the contenders there are the usual suspects=
> (Inmarsat, Optus, Iridium, ...). No Starlink in Ku or Ka band.
>
> That makes me wonder: Is Elon not paying his fees?
>
> Anyone seeing anything similar where they are?


I did a search for France and starlink frequencies and city names, at
regulators ARCEP and at LegiFrance at gov't.=C2=A0 There is also an EU =
regulator to check, as well but I could not identify properly.

I wanted to find precisely the allocated starlink frequencies and the
cities of teleports.

I could not find definite answers, because: there were disputes in the
allocations and there are newcomers (Starlink-like LEO Internet
providers, civilian and military).=C2=A0 There also oppinions from the publ= ic
at large that influence the decisions, typically related to health and
environmental risks.

This is my interpretation of the current allocations:

The freqs allocated to Starlink in France are: 10.95 GHz (in some docs
it's written 10.96 GHz) - 12.70 GHz, 14-14.5GHz, 17.7-19.3 GHz and 29.5=
- 30 GHz.
= https://www.arcep.fr/actualites/actualites-et-communiques/detail/n/frequenc= es-180423.html

Other constellation freqs that might overlap:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The freqs considered for allocation to Thales (MCS= AT or oneweb?,
allocated or still under consideration? remark potential overlaps with
starlink): 17.8 - 18.6 GHz, 18.8 - 19.3 GHz, 19.3 - 19.7 GHz.
https://www.arcep.fr/uploads/tx_gsavis/= 20-1409.pdf

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The freqs considered for allocation by law to Thal= es for "MCSAT-2
LEO-2": 17.8-18.6, 18.8-20.2,19.7-20.2 (strange two times 20.2),
27.5-30,29.5-30. https://www.l= egifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/id/JORFTEXT000043142179

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There are some ARCEP consultations to the public a= bout potential
allocations to OneWeb.

Maybe these potential overlaps have already been fixed, I dont know.


The names of cities:

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The names of cities where starlink teleports might= be situated
hardly appear in the freq allocation documents.=C2=A0 One can see in the starlink ARCEP allocations, maybe a city name like "Carros
(Alpes-Maritimes) ".=C2=A0 There are maybe a few (3?) such city names = in the
ARCEP docs.=C2=A0 Or maybe I could not find them where they are.

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The official(?) geoip=C2=A0 of starlink places ind= icate only one region
for France, e.g. "145.224.76.0/24,FR,FR-IDF,Pa= ris".=C2=A0 There are 28 such
entries for 'FR' and they are all "FR-IDF".=C2=A0 It stan= ds for=C2=A0 =C3=8Ele de
France, a particular region in France.
https://geoip.starlinkisp.net/feed.csv

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The teleports shown by satellitemap.spa= ce for France are 2 and are
not situated in IdF (=C3=8Ele-de-France).

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 It is incoherent: how many teleports are in France= ?=C2=A0 Are they all
situated in IdF?

Alex

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Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/sta= rlink
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