From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x533.google.com (mail-ed1-x533.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::533]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8AA1D3B2A4 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2023 15:05:35 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x533.google.com with SMTP id 4fb4d7f45d1cf-530bc7c5bc3so1648967a12.1 for ; Thu, 21 Sep 2023 12:05:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1695323133; x=1695927933; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=2yP5WPkxR2bv2J5zCfUNx/REbzbjUqX1Og7VL7YPu5c=; b=AW0eogVO/XhOe4xE9x32nUM4Y8DDSoBWxB+WtMIPdmh8OdQ3qIKqexis3wy26dMmbI Lehhbp/VL/T/G0njJLwsDm/Zc26D1oAoF9nZ9RKVSM7CmvAyEUeAsk1arLUQ/uTnGIAB OGsMEmrGC/XuTTgQNzozZZCTov/CCjIzzgbIDkpqISapEkGiu4sS+5//XYMvKbeu6Ncv G6qIZWU2g/SiiPMwG8cXp6b+ZAytnVBglkVyzcfViPANFYaMRnseEdDkkImhD0ErAAkd j594xZLoyth7QSqwu7Lqf3pVZWSiu1HDPnL4P1h4pX1/UbzSKUeyD9EJMfFJdRjBOpoe UN8A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1695323133; x=1695927933; h=cc:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=2yP5WPkxR2bv2J5zCfUNx/REbzbjUqX1Og7VL7YPu5c=; b=dmhVeD4YjW45R78+Tuirf93MctKBuR60nGE3HBg3DcR4dGqv2tLXWugdqjC3hjLvqr 3RCGJqDFUgFJSOZ8bMMo6U/lDz5a2Ywx1J42j9WYsrAF82yDjYRSglevnul+cjAhbCbi i9oWfzPQ8832o/iqqFHm7FeOqjV/J3yjr9zotTJ43+lJLyls74f3TmE8/Akqtkoh8d0E iae4Ap0hfaI5AOx/lTbKIEiI3xXHTwCe5p7SVyAHQlFb5emIxSx6OJA8fSy/ZEgy/wzT LNqOLhMOS/wyPDxV2NOrJsIXdxSr25aZ+Cfzair0OcrPsFWPpfuRgldDnRMDBxz+2YVw YckA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwWJ9qMDadCJRbos/d0dfoKz59/hE3ALqEyJI8WkMKy0eTOO5PF gVdJyJvEQUQpwwflH0vQmoxqkfZokk3IgdNRQTJMbmUrCo0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHIOSUpnpUSG9R2w5G2TfJOda5PNhp8LWahsY/8/p7o3Ylp/xiQG4OBZr0j69b7LhLKp3M5DZJDfT2yYVN7gkg= X-Received: by 2002:aa7:cf03:0:b0:51d:95f2:ee76 with SMTP id a3-20020aa7cf03000000b0051d95f2ee76mr6183075edy.27.1695323133076; Thu, 21 Sep 2023 12:05:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9d96e8d6-8a40-4353-b7a3-49881742f1a7@auckland.ac.nz> <04809a35-4c06-43b6-bc2e-b69de3214946@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <04809a35-4c06-43b6-bc2e-b69de3214946@gmail.com> From: Inemesit Affia Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 20:05:16 +0100 Message-ID: Cc: Starlink Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000020696c0605e32d64" Subject: Re: [Starlink] APNIC56 last week X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 21 Sep 2023 19:05:35 -0000 --00000000000020696c0605e32d64 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Not going to go into details but lasers have been identified in photos of the sats and one of the component suppliers is known. (The scale is novel, not the tech, demisabiliy is new though) Starlink can't deliver to Antarctica or Northern parts of Alaska, Ascension Island, Diego Garcia, Easter Island, Vanuatu, Iran without ISL's etc North South links seem to work but not East West (if they exist) On Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 2:20 PM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > Le 19/09/2023 =C3=A0 06:39, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a =C3=A9crit : > > FWIW, I gave a talk about Starlink - insights from a year in - at last > > week's APNIC56 conference in Kyoto: > > > > https://conference.apnic.net/56/program/program/#/day/6/technical-2/ > > > Thanks for the presentation. > > I would like to ask what do you mean by "Method #2: "space lasers""and > "Not all Starlink satellites have > lasers" on slide 5? > > It seems to be saying there is inter-satellite communications. The need > of that seems to stem from the lack of ground 'teleport' that is > necessary for DISHY-SAT-Internet communications, so a SAT-to-SAT > communication is apparently used with lasers. I can agree with the need. > > What standard is used for these lasers? > > Is this ISL communicaiton within the starlink constellation a > supposition or a sure thing? > > Other presentations of starlink mentioned on this list dont talk about > this lasers between sats (dont show lasers on the sats), but kepler > talks about optical links, and also there is talk about ISOC LEO > Internet about such 'lasers from space'. > > (I must say that I thought previously that there were only 2 or 3 ground > teleports overall in EU and USA, but I see now there is a teleport in NZ > too). > > (for price comparison: it is said 100USD monthly, but in France right > now the monthly subscription is at around 40 Euros; this competes very > advantageously to other satcoms ISPs for rural areas non-covered by 5G; > the cellular monthly subscriptions are still much more advantageous, > where there is 5G, of course). > > Alex > > > > > Also well worth looking at is Geoff Huston's excellent piece on the > > foreseeable demise of TCP in favour of QUIC in the same session. One > > of Geoff's main arguments is that the Internet is becoming local, > > i.e., most traffic goes between a CDN server and you, and most data is > > becoming proprietary to the application owner, meaning it suits the > > Googles and Facebooks of this world very well not to be using TCP for > > its transport, but rather pull the transport specifics into the > > application layer where the have full control. > > > > Food for thought, especially since LEO networks are a particularly bad > > place to put local content caches, since the concept of what's "local" > > in a LEO network changes constantly, at around 20,000 miles an hour or > > so. Spoke to a Rwandan colleague who installs Starlink there and sees > > all traffic to anywhere go via the US with RTTs of nearly 2 seconds, > > even if the Rwandan user is trying to access a Rwandan service. > > > > About to hop onto a plane (ZK-NZJ) tonight with free WiFi (Ka band > > GEO) enroute to Auckland in the hope of getting a better experience > > than last time when the system seemed to run out of IP addresses on > > its DHCP. > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --00000000000020696c0605e32d64 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Not going to go into details but lasers have been identif= ied in photos of the sats and one of the component suppliers is known. (The= scale is novel, not the tech, demisabiliy is new though)
=
Starlink can't deliver to Antarctica or Nor= thern parts of Alaska, Ascension Island, Diego Garcia, Easter Island, Vanua= tu, Iran without ISL's etc

North South links seem to work but not East West (if they exist)

On Thu, Sep 21, 2023, 2:20 PM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

Le 19/09/2023 =C3=A0 06:39, Ulrich Speidel via Starlink a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:=
> FWIW, I gave a talk about Starlink - insights from a year in - at last=
> week's APNIC56 conference in Kyoto:
>
> https://conferen= ce.apnic.net/56/program/program/#/day/6/technical-2/


Thanks for the presentation.

I would like to ask what do you mean by "Method #2: "space lasers= ""and
"Not all Starlink satellites have
lasers" on slide 5?

It seems to be saying there is inter-satellite communications. The need of that seems to stem from the lack of ground 'teleport' that is necessary for DISHY-SAT-Internet communications, so a SAT-to-SAT
communication is apparently used with lasers.=C2=A0 I can agree with the ne= ed.

What standard is used for these lasers?

Is this ISL communicaiton within the starlink constellation a
supposition or a sure thing?

Other presentations of starlink mentioned on this list dont talk about
this lasers between sats (dont show=C2=A0 lasers on the sats), but kepler <= br> talks about optical links, and also there is talk about ISOC LEO
Internet about such 'lasers from space'.

(I must say that I thought previously that there were only 2 or 3 ground teleports overall in EU and USA, but I see now there is a teleport in NZ too).

(for price comparison: it is said 100USD monthly, but in France right=C2=A0=
now the monthly subscription is at around 40 Euros;=C2=A0 this competes ver= y
advantageously to other satcoms ISPs for rural areas non-covered by 5G; the cellular monthly subscriptions are still much more advantageous,
where there is 5G, of course).

Alex

>
> Also well worth looking at is Geoff Huston's excellent piece on th= e
> foreseeable demise of TCP in favour of QUIC in the same session. One <= br> > of Geoff's main arguments is that the Internet is becoming local, =
> i.e., most traffic goes between a CDN server and you, and most data is=
> becoming proprietary to the application owner, meaning it suits the > Googles and Facebooks of this world very well not to be using TCP for =
> its transport, but rather pull the transport specifics into the
> application layer where the have full control.
>
> Food for thought, especially since LEO networks are a particularly bad=
> place to put local content caches, since the concept of what's &qu= ot;local"
> in a LEO network changes constantly, at around 20,000 miles an hour or=
> so. Spoke to a Rwandan colleague who installs Starlink there and sees =
> all traffic to anywhere go via the US with RTTs of nearly 2 seconds, <= br> > even if the Rwandan user is trying to access a Rwandan service.
>
> About to hop onto a plane (ZK-NZJ) tonight with free WiFi (Ka band > GEO) enroute to Auckland in the hope of getting a better experience > than last time when the system seemed to run out of IP addresses on > its DHCP.
>
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Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/sta= rlink
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