From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-vk1-xa33.google.com (mail-vk1-xa33.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::a33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D68C63D56C for ; Wed, 8 May 2024 04:01:46 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-vk1-xa33.google.com with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-4df344eecd7so1375702e0c.3 for ; Wed, 08 May 2024 01:01:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1715155306; x=1715760106; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=8QrhrFZ32qqLFfFr2/Ff1qxCUTCHMJne7jeUyyO+3ok=; b=Jltox3F6BX1kxiMW50Ch3ki48VdKBLNIZFPYPt7Hxp4h6Yo/FWdv+jTEe2hAGsASkV ro0tuL1jgmiUowECTxSLyNB5njkIKVjnW39RT48zf9yV6aAPA/Oe5ZLurnuZFeWuQ1kY GgiX26c/zi2K6jmFKEgYTE/cp3lN9f8YVgDoDukmOgKF1r1Y1j2qCkmeYXEPvMhrqQIe pmmowjP4ovtGW3YOobjGgjrP8dYC3sfFdEKSRbzQxmhfsCb0WPHErkwEd6qHJQBBkMGA Bvav9Iexgi3M9c4BOC0kQT1IA8U4B9IvON5OZRAYb+wisfdqAxtk5dI7lP9gevYq+6QF 9vBQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1715155306; x=1715760106; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=8QrhrFZ32qqLFfFr2/Ff1qxCUTCHMJne7jeUyyO+3ok=; b=Qi6sgnsfDuw0XsnxOdDCWYCkHhvPlpcTX2Yi60K+k5VBquxQ6ud4/O6xhjna9BhNVj Ko8saGAly5iPW3aAg+PFWnG2Q6wv8KT4xt1tP3zpbG9AgmfXDnOzC9UbGOUSkVke7mZM f8wU9dbhRG4Ze/V3EFEA0myjKFvXiQyOtefGi1t1P+TiMa+f8C1LIJu5BteOcntDbPUx yB80wfs3YljrCsMCBbfWqwEa3JjYrL2YHl+nQwgfpTeZtacs3d2/JeOJ3U5mGqGWlXtT uLWPMFwpYAyB7lr9YGqXkpkC2DIr1e/uWii0jPzLfPqZr94rpwDdkLCVYle4TTAsKTzD uWBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YzUpBGY4f+FuC3R7nOxAr/okKbwwAulhJy1YHlg8aJpgQ9L42PY pVtRjXFNVEN49xOT1/ZFc6aDLRKiSfWM98ode7kw8pfP1OrZKO4CZt2ZflNugMCxDLlKvdIPC3X TZU+b/1t/GXauXqkdA2I9PDWqyYKJ5TPV X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEi8EDomXtrhFdZQetiuAgy+hxYEBuRU2BJmJWGA3QYZ9yqlh5mkbytz3NkjLqp1fwVOz6f592k4nscCPgFPJI= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6122:2008:b0:4d4:1fe2:c398 with SMTP id 71dfb90a1353d-4df69122a44mr1804551e0c.2.1715155304554; Wed, 08 May 2024 01:01:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <438B1BC4-D465-497A-B6BA-700E1D411036@ieee.org> <79C02ABB-B2A6-4B4D-98F4-6540D3F96EBB@ieee.org> <7E918B58-382A-4793-A144-13A7075CA56C@connectivitycap.com> <13rq2389-9012-p95n-s494-q3pp070s497n@ynat.uz> <6qop2p3o-351p-788q-q1q2-86sosnq3rn21@ynat.uz> <3FF32F52-4A93-496B-85FF-00020FA4A48B@gmx.de> <08F6942E-CC08-4956-B92E-CBEC091D86E4@ieee.org> In-Reply-To: From: Frantisek Borsik Date: Wed, 8 May 2024 10:01:08 +0200 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht via Starlink Cc: Rich Brown , Colin_Higbie , Dave Taht Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a9a9730617ecb64a" Subject: Re: [Starlink] The "reasons" that bufferbloat isn't a problem X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 May 2024 08:01:46 -0000 --000000000000a9a9730617ecb64a Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry - I meant ~ 4,5 % of the ISPs, not 2 :) All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik@gmail.com On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 9:58=E2=80=AFAM Frantisek Borsik wrote: > Just to add the latest numbers from our (LibreQoS) ongoing "QoE > competitive landscape research": > > Out of 66k plus ISPs worldwide, barely 3k use some QoE middle-box. Presee= m > is the market leader, with well over 400 T2 & T3 ISPs (number shared in > their wonderful Fixed Wireless Network Report 2024 Q1 Edition > ), > Bequant seems to be 2nd, in terms of market penetration, claiming 500+ IS= Ps > worldwide. Then we assume Cambium Networks and Paraqum - numbers of their > users are not know, but we can expect something similar, in the Preseem a= nd > Bequant ballpark. Then there is LibreQoS. All in all, it's safe to say th= at > somewhere between 2,5 and 3 thousand Internet Service Providers worldwide > are using QoE middle-box of sort. So barely 2% of the ISPs worldwide are > using it, we are still in the "innovator" stage of the whole "crossing th= e > chasm" paradigm. > > We are all still very early on, working on it, and I'm lovin' it. > > > All the best, > > Frank > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > > On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 4:16=E2=80=AFAM Dave Taht via Starlink < > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> This was a wonderful post, rich! >> >> I note that preseem, paraqum, bequant and libreqos (a bufferbloat.net >> backed project) are in the fq codel or cake Middlebox for isps *Qoe) mar= ket >> and all of us have made a substantial dent in the problem for oh, call i= t >> 1000 isps worldwide total between us. Comcast also has done a pretty goo= d >> job but it seems yhe rest of the cable industry is asleep at the switch. >> >> The wisps totally got it with fq codel and cake arriving native for >> mikeotiks entire product line and much of ubnts gear prior to that. >> >> >> Qoe is still a pretty hard sell. Libreqos has a ton of free users and we >> think over a million devices managed by it but not enough paid users to >> justify even 1/10th the investment we have made so far into it (somethin= g >> that I hope turns around with the upcoming v1.5 lts release and some >> outputs from the nlnet and Comcast funded cakemaint and nqb projects) >> >> Thing is, at higher and fiber rates all the bloat moves to the wifi, and >> a ton of that, like eero especially was long ago fq codeled and so I thi= nk >> several major players have also (except for those stuck with broadcom). >> >> That said there are a lot of defective wifi aps left to replace. Nearly >> every coffee shop I have been in with the exception of Starbucks has rea= lly >> lousy wifi. >> >> I am so thrilled to see what starlink has accomplished so far with their >> rollout of bufferbloat.net stuff and look forward to more. They are >> still missing a few tricks... but are aware of what tricks they are >> missing... >> >> Lack of knowledge of which regrettably remains the case for 97% of the >> market and 99.99$ user base. Still ar apps will drive this rventually...= I >> think starlink is nicely positioned now to meet their demanding growth >> goals and humanity's future in space assured, so there's that. ( i still >> would rather like elone to send over a nice pair of tesla motors and >> battery pack for my sailboat) >> >> I did have a nice jam with ajit Pai last week who is now well on his way >> towards getting it. (See my twitter for the pics) >> >> On Mon, May 6, 2024, 4:25=E2=80=AFAM Rich Brown via Starlink < >> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >> >>> Hi Gene, >>> >>> I've been vacillating on whether to send this note, but have decided to >>> pull the trigger. I apologize in advance for the "Debbie Downer" nature= of >>> this message. I also apologize for any errors, omissions, or >>> over-simplifications of the "birth of bufferbloat" story and its fixes. >>> Corrections welcome. >>> >>> Rich >>> ------ >>> >>> If we are going to take a shot at opening people's eyes to bufferbloat, >>> we should know some of the "objections" we'll run up against. Even thou= gh >>> there's terrific technical data to back it up, people seem especially >>> resistant to thinking that bufferbloat might affect their network, even >>> when they're seeing problems that sound exactly like bufferbloat sympto= ms. >>> But first, some history: >>> >>> The very idea of bufferbloat is simply unbelievable. Jim Gettys in 2011 >>> [1] couldn't believe it, and he's a smart networking guy,. At the time,= it >>> seemed incredible (that is "not credible" =3D=3D impossible) that somet= hing >>> could induce 1.2 seconds of latency into his home network connection. H= e >>> called in favors from technical contacts at his ISP and at Bell Labs wh= o >>> went over everything with a fine-toothed comb. It was all exactly as >>> spec'd. But he still had the latency. >>> >>> This led Jim and Dave T=C3=A4ht to start the investigation into the >>> phenomenon known today as "bufferbloat" - the undesirable latency that >>> comes from a router or other network equipment buffering too much data. >>> Over several years, a group of smart people made huge improvements: >>> fq_codel was released 14 May 2012 [3]; it was incorporated into the Lin= ux >>> kernel shortly afterward. CAKE came in 2015, and the fixes that minimiz= e >>> bufferbloat in Wi-Fi arrived in 2018. In 2021 cake-autorate [4] arrived= to >>> handle varying speed ISP links. All these techniques work great: in 201= 4, >>> my 7mbps DSL link was quite usable. And when the pandemic hit, fq_codel= on >>> my OpenWrt router allowed me to use that same 7mbps DSL line for two >>> simultaneous zoom calls. >>> >>> As one of the authors of [2], I am part of the team that has tried over >>> the years to explain bufferbloat and how to fix it. We've spoken with >>> vendors. We've spent untold hours responding to posts on assorted board= s >>> and forums with the the bufferbloat story. >>> >>> With these technical fixes in hand, we cockily set about to tell the >>> world about how to fix bufferbloat. Our efforts have been met with >>> skepticism at best, or stony silence. What are the objections? >>> >>> - This is just the ordinary behavior: I would expect things to be slowe= r >>> when there's more traffic (Willfully ignoring orders of magnitude incre= ase >>> in delay.) >>> - Besides, I'm the only one using the internet. (Except when my phone >>> uploads photos. Or my computer kicks off some automated process. Or I >>> browse the web. Or ...) >>> - It only happens some of the time. (Exactly. That's probably when >>> something's uploading photos, or your computer is doing stuff in the >>> background.) >>> - Those bufferbloat tests you hear about are bogus. They artificially >>> add load, which isn't a realistic test. (...and if you actually are >>> downloading a file?) >>> - Bufferbloat only happens when the network is 100% loaded. (True. But >>> when you open a web page, your browser briefly uses 100% of the link. I= s >>> this enough to cause momentary lag?) >>> - It's OK. I just tell my kids/spouse not to use the internet when I'm >>> gaming. (Huh?) >>> - I have gigabit service from my ISP. (That helps, but if you're >>> complaining about "slowness" you still need to rule out bufferbloat in = your >>> router.) >>> - I can't believe that router manufacturers would ever allow such a >>> thing to happen in their gear. (See the Jim Gettys story above.) >>> - I mean... wouldn't router vendors want to provide the best for their >>> customers? (No - implementing this (new-ish) code requires engineering >>> effort. They're selling plenty of routers with decade-old software. The >>> Boss says, "would we sell more if they made these changes? Probably not= .") >>> - Why would my ISP provision/sell me a router that gave crappy service? >>> They're a big company, they must know about this stuff. (Maybe. We have >>> reached out to all the vendors. But remember they profit if you decide = your >>> network is too slow and you upgrade to a faster device/plan.) >>> - But couldn't I just tweak the QoS on my router? (Maybe. But see [5]) >>> - Besides, I just spent $300 on a "gaming router". Obviously, I bought >>> the most expensive/best possible solution on the market (But I still ha= ve >>> lag...) >>> - You're telling me that a bunch of pointy-headed academics are smarter >>> than commercial router developers - who sold me that $300 router? (I ca= n't >>> believe it.) >>> - And then you say that I should throw away that gaming router and >>> install some "open source firmware"? (What the heck is that? And why sh= ould >>> I believe you?) >>> - What if it doesn't solve the problem? Who will give me support? And >>> how will I get back to a vendor-supported system? (Valid point - the fi= rst >>> valid point) >>> - Aren't there any commercial solutions I can just buy? (Not at the >>> moment. IQrouter was a shining light here - available from Amazon, simp= le >>> setup, worked a treat - but they have gone out of business. And of cour= se, >>> for the skeptic, this is proof that the "fq_codel-stuff" isn't really a >>> solution - it seems just like snake oil.) >>> >>> So... All these hurdles make it hard to convince people that bufferbloa= t >>> could be the problem, or that they can fix for themselves. >>> >>> A couple of us have reached out to Consumer Reports, wondering if they >>> would like a story about how vendors would prefer to sell you a new, fa= ster >>> router (or new faster ISP plan) than fix your bufferbloat. This kind of >>> story seemed to be straight up their alley, but we never heard back aft= er >>> an initial contact. Maybe they deserve another call... >>> >>> The recent latency results from Starlink give me a modicum of hope. >>> They're a major player. They (and their customers) can point to an orde= r of >>> magnitude reduction in latency over other solutions. It still requires >>> enough "regular customers" to tell their current ISP that they are >>> switching to Starlink (and spend $600 to purchase a Dishy plus $100/mon= th) >>> to provide a market incentive. >>> >>> Despite all this doom and gloom, I remain hopeful that things will get >>> better. We know the technology exists for people to take control of the= ir >>> network and solve the problem for themselves. We can continue to respon= d on >>> forums where people express their dismay at the crummy performance and >>> suggest a solution. We can hope that a major vendor will twig to this >>> effect and bring out a mass-market solution. >>> >>> I think your suggestion of speaking to eSports people is intriguing. >>> They're highly motivated to make their personal networks better. And >>> actually solving the problem would have a network effect of bringing in >>> others with the same problem. >>> >>> Good luck, and thanks for thinking about this. >>> >>> Rich Brown >>> >>> [1] >>> https://courses.cs.washington.edu/courses/cse550/21au/papers/bufferbloa= t.pdf >>> [2] >>> https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/What_can_I_do_about_Buf= ferbloat/ >>> [3] >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/pipermail/cerowrt-devel/2012-May/000233.h= tml >>> [4] https://github.com/lynxthecat/cake-autorate >>> [5] >>> https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/More_about_Bufferbloat/= #what-s-wrong-with-simply-configuring-qos >>> >>> On May 1, 2024, at 6:19 PM, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink < >>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >>> >>> Of course. For the gamers, the focus is managing latency. They have >>> control of everything else. >>> >>> With our high latency and wide range of values, the eSports teams train >>> on campus. It will be interesting to see how much improvements there ca= n be >>> for teams to be able to training from their homes. >>> >>> Gene >>> ---------------------------------------------- >>> Eugene Chang >>> IEEE Life Senior Member >>> IEEE Communications Society & Signal Processing Society, >>> Hawaii Chapter Chair >>> IEEE Life Member Affinity Group Hawaii Chair >>> IEEE Entrepreneurship, Mentor >>> eugene.chang@ieee.org >>> m 781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> > --000000000000a9a9730617ecb64a Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry - I meant ~ 4,5 % of the ISPs, not 2 :)

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

=

=C2=A0

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, Wh= atsApp: +421919416714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)">Skype: casioa5302ca<= /u>

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com



On Wed, May 8, = 2024 at 9:58=E2=80=AFAM Frantisek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com> wrote:
Just to add the latest numbers from our (LibreQoS= ) ongoing "QoE competitive landscape research":

Out of 66k plus ISPs worldwide, barely 3k use some QoE middle-box. Presee= m is the market leader, with well over 400 T2 & T3 ISPs (number shared = in their wonderful=C2=A0Fixed Wireless Network Report 2024 Q1 Edition), Bequant seems to be 2n= d, in terms of market penetration, claiming 500+ ISPs worldwide. Then we as= sume Cambium Networks and Paraqum - numbers of their users are not know, bu= t we can expect something similar, in the Preseem and Bequant ballpark. The= n there is LibreQoS. All in all, it's safe to say that somewhere betwee= n 2,5 and 3 thousand Internet Service Providers worldwide are using QoE mid= dle-box of sort. So barely 2% of the ISPs worldwide are using it, we are st= ill in the "innovator" stage of the whole "crossing the chas= m" paradigm.=C2=A0

We are all still very earl= y on, working on it, and I'm lovin' it.=C2=A0

<= div>
All = the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

=C2=A0

https://www.l= inkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=C2= =A0

i= Message, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.bors= ik@gmail.com

<= /div>


On Wed, May 8, 2024 at 4:16=E2=80=AFAM Dav= e Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
This was a wonderful post, rich!

I note that preseem, paraqum,=C2=A0 bequ= ant and libreqos (a bu= fferbloat.net backed project) are in the fq codel or cake Middlebox for= isps *Qoe) market and all of us have made a substantial dent in the proble= m for oh, call it 1000 isps worldwide total between us. Comcast also has do= ne a pretty good job but it seems yhe rest of the cable industry is asleep = at the switch.

The wisps= totally got it with fq codel and cake arriving native for mikeotiks entire= product line and much of ubnts gear prior to that.
=

Qoe is still a pret= ty hard sell. Libreqos has a ton of free users and we think over a million = devices managed by it but not enough paid users to justify even 1/10th the = investment we have made so far into it (something that I hope turns around = with the upcoming v1.5 lts release and some outputs from the nlnet and Comc= ast funded cakemaint and nqb projects)

Thing is, at higher and fiber rates all the bloat moves to t= he wifi, and a ton of that, like eero especially was long ago fq codeled an= d so I think several major players have also (except for those stuck with b= roadcom).=C2=A0

That sai= d there are a lot of defective wifi aps left to replace. Nearly every coffe= e shop I have been in with the exception of Starbucks has really lousy wifi= .

I am so thrilled to se= e what starlink has accomplished so far with their rollout of bufferbloat.net stuff and look = forward to more. They are still missing a few tricks... but are aware of wh= at tricks they are missing...

Lack of knowledge of which regrettably remains the case for 97% of th= e market and 99.99$ user base. Still ar apps will drive this rventually... = I think starlink is nicely positioned now to meet their demanding growth go= als and humanity's future in space assured, so there's that. ( i st= ill would rather like elone to send over a nice pair of tesla motors and ba= ttery pack for my sailboat)

I did have a nice jam with ajit Pai last week who is now well on his wa= y towards getting it. (See my twitter for the pics)

On Mon, May 6, 202= 4, 4:25=E2=80=AFAM Rich Brown via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net&= gt; wrote:
Hi Gene,

I've been vacillating= on whether to send this note, but have decided to pull the trigger. I apol= ogize in advance for the "Debbie Downer" nature of this message. = I also apologize for any errors, omissions, or over-simplifications of the = "birth of bufferbloat" story and its fixes. Corrections welcome.<= /div>

Rich
------

If we are going to take a shot at opening people's eyes to bufferblo= at, we should know some of the "objections" we'll run up agai= nst. Even though there's terrific technical data to back it up, people = seem especially resistant to thinking that bufferbloat might affect their n= etwork, even when they're seeing problems that sound exactly like buffe= rbloat symptoms. But first, some history:

The very idea of bu= fferbloat is simply unbelievable. Jim Gettys in 2011 [1] couldn't belie= ve it, and he's a smart networking guy,. At the time, it seemed incredi= ble (that is "not=C2=A0credible" =3D=3D impossible) that somethin= g could induce 1.2 seconds of latency into his home network connection. He = called in favors from technical contacts at his ISP and=C2=A0at Bell Labs w= ho went over everything with a fine-toothed comb. It was all exactly as spe= c'd. But he still had the latency.=C2=A0

This led Jim and Dave T= =C3=A4ht to start the investigation into the phenomenon known today as &quo= t;bufferbloat" - the undesirable latency that comes from a router or o= ther network=C2=A0equipment buffering too much data. Over several years, a = group of smart people made huge improvements: fq_codel was released 14 May = 2012 [3]; it was incorporated=C2=A0into the Linux kernel shortly afterward.= CAKE came in 2015, and the fixes that minimize bufferbloat in Wi-Fi arrive= d in 2018. In 2021 cake-autorate [4] arrived to handle=C2=A0varying speed I= SP links. All these techniques work great: in 2014, my 7mbps DSL link was q= uite usable. And when the pandemic hit, fq_codel on my OpenWrt router=C2=A0= allowed me to use that same 7mbps DSL line for two simultaneous zoom calls.= =C2=A0

As one of the authors of [2], I am part of = the team that has tried over the years to explain bufferbloat and how to fi= x it. We've spoken with vendors. We've spent untold hours respondin= g to posts on assorted boards and forums with the the bufferbloat story.=C2= =A0

With these technical fixes in hand, we cockily= set about to tell the world about how to fix bufferbloat. Our efforts have= been met with skepticism at best, or stony silence. What are the objection= s?=C2=A0

- This is just the ordinary behavior: I w= ould expect things to be slower when there's more traffic (Willfully ig= noring orders of magnitude increase in delay.)
- Besides, I'm= the only one using the internet. (Except when my phone uploads photos. Or = my computer kicks off some automated process. Or I browse the web. Or ...)<= /div>
- It only happens some of the time. (Exactly. That's probably= when something's uploading photos, or your computer is doing stuff in = the background.)
- Those bufferbloat tests you hear about are bog= us. They artificially add load, which isn't a realistic test. (...and i= f you actually are downloading a file?)
- Bufferbloat only happen= s when the network is 100% loaded. (True. But when you open a web page, you= r browser briefly uses 100% of the link. Is this enough to cause momentary = lag?)
- It's OK. I just tell my kids/spouse not to use the in= ternet when I'm gaming. (Huh?)
- I have gigabit service from = my ISP. (That helps, but if you're complaining about "slowness&quo= t; you still need to rule out bufferbloat in your router.)
- I ca= n't believe that router manufacturers would ever allow such a thing to = happen in their gear. (See the Jim Gettys story above.)
- I mean.= .. wouldn't router vendors want to provide the best for their customers= ? (No - implementing this (new-ish) code requires engineering effort. They&= #39;re selling plenty of routers with decade-old software. The Boss says, &= quot;would we sell more if they made these changes? Probably not.")
- Why would my ISP provision/sell me a router that gave crappy serv= ice? They're a big company, they must know about this stuff. (Maybe. We= have reached out to all the vendors. But remember they profit if you decid= e your network is too slow and you upgrade to a faster device/plan.)
<= div>- But couldn't I just tweak the QoS on my router? (Maybe. But see [= 5])
- Besides, I just spent $300 on a "gaming router". = Obviously, I bought the most expensive/best possible solution on the market= (But I still have lag...)
- You're telling me that a bunch o= f pointy-headed academics are smarter than commercial router developers - w= ho sold me that $300 router? (I can't believe it.)
- And then= you say that I should throw away that gaming router and install some "= ;open source firmware"? (What the heck is that? And why should I belie= ve you?)=C2=A0
- What if it doesn't solve the problem? Who wi= ll give me support? And how will I get back to a vendor-supported system? (= Valid point - the first valid point)
- Aren't there any comme= rcial solutions I can just buy? (Not at the moment. IQrouter was a shining = light here - available from Amazon, simple setup, worked a treat - but they= have gone out of business. And of course, for the skeptic, this is proof t= hat the "fq_codel-stuff" isn't really a solution - it seems j= ust like snake oil.)

So... All these hurdles make = it hard to convince people that bufferbloat could be the problem, or that t= hey can fix for themselves.

A couple of us have re= ached out to Consumer Reports, wondering if they would like a story about h= ow vendors would prefer to sell you a new, faster router (or new faster ISP= plan) than fix your bufferbloat. This kind of story seemed to be straight = up their alley, but we never heard back after an initial contact. Maybe the= y deserve another call...

The recent latency resul= ts from Starlink give me a modicum of hope. They're a major player. The= y (and their customers) can point to an order of magnitude reduction in lat= ency over other solutions. It still requires enough "regular customers= " to tell their current ISP that they are switching to Starlink (and s= pend $600 to purchase a Dishy plus $100/month) to provide a market incentiv= e.

Despite all this doom and gloom, I remain hopef= ul that things will get better. We know the technology exists for people to= take control of their network and solve the problem for themselves. We can= continue to respond on forums where people express their dismay at the cru= mmy performance and suggest a solution. We can hope that a major vendor wil= l twig to this effect and bring out a mass-market solution.

<= /div>
I think your suggestion of speaking to eSports people is intrigui= ng. They're highly motivated to make their personal networks better. An= d actually solving the problem would have a network effect of bringing in o= thers with the same problem.=C2=A0

Good luck, and = thanks for thinking about this.

Rich Brown

[2]=C2=A0https://www.bufferbloat.net/projects/bloat/wiki/What_can_I_do_about= _Bufferbloat/

On May 1,= 2024, at 6:19 PM, Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink@lis= ts.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

Of course. For the gamers, the focus is managing latency. = They have control of everything else.

With our high late= ncy and wide range of values, the eSports teams train on campus. It will be= interesting to see how much improvements there can be for teams to be able= to training from their homes.

Gene
----------------------------------------------=
Eugene Chang
IEEE Life Senior Member
IEEE Communica= tions Society & Signal Processing Society, =C2=A0 =C2=A0
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 Hawaii Chapter Chair
IEEE Life Member Affinity Group Hawaii C= hair

= _______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/sta= rlink
_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink --000000000000a9a9730617ecb64a--