From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qt1-x831.google.com (mail-qt1-x831.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::831]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 881853CB37 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2024 15:27:33 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x831.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-430d47841e2so593511cf.0 for ; Sun, 17 Mar 2024 12:27:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1710703653; x=1711308453; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=7FQ5W2diq3QLwD/blgoH2bYW3ui6UPq2GLIQHku4pt4=; b=kA/gq5S7boHDW3eJse1U/d26oSNxDXzKkBFF6eI30RVP8gGKxRNgy1S5iHy/86XOuv z0MRST/MPWe9ews6cNri09h8c05Xj9+RX6rsNuUwbdSeuwJ+Vay4AEz9xm9VMUjqOh1+ xNS1YRsQs0lk3Weu8Ke0RUzqBYlhaHxx49IS59m05sYJCyJJellty+K0azscL9a25y4l +WFjpX9MzzYPE8TiIH0S4gswYBL4DpU1Ha0S9QJQimB3bxYW09ib2+NgsFXRM/4B+ScL 1ZRvi1AniJFeyHAdW3OIEWwf+m8HYNdzXwmJnrw8FxNB2hlinI4XKJkjRbI/VBPG0UP2 A3Xw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1710703653; x=1711308453; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=7FQ5W2diq3QLwD/blgoH2bYW3ui6UPq2GLIQHku4pt4=; b=UlEnSHyDx6MijwynFsDWm7C5C7KMY/1lVNbYrwoqZYLGCtXTX2rhmX4vkftftG7v4z d45GvThX1o8Yaix0DGNQ69Qp6iNYZNpInQP1Qmarlb1O4iygf2ZvnhHPtLjT9UMM2hf8 yPT2YbbWOscFefeaFfux/JVm8rPb2zpKfWbjLcUs1wCE0mG8q8+H4D4TKUMy2EBDLyzj 2SIR5u3k/zUuQDu26Iui/B9qdGjemSgy03b8CBmDbX5Ci2w0MDhtqDnbdlb+JWHPkw6H KUFWNaBDC/4HKgGCwf3h8g0cwbkD77EamIzMZJtYsMUrJKF5yiKWmr6z1NZpxaSHzF0e HZZw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyHRbkMSc8mEeGdbtI2gFhVWWbUXW0Q2GtUa9qa+9oVVm9dHqJs Fpza+u8ZrVA8KHCI6EaN7nE83lAy/ycGnIiTvhUy54Fjxvotts8a1NF6aLEmREfBllRp3Mwuqn4 rePee3xaRR3NbyGQ72O17chijFcnwT+BQGRc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHjcN6Tcg1V81+SywBbG5M05f49I8HB/Kddur5YnAmTiI1i1Dv3EihO9qpq2YCzUQSSozw2b1AQNFgeMSjSHOE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:622a:5299:b0:42f:200e:1a61 with SMTP id dr25-20020a05622a529900b0042f200e1a61mr11170613qtb.34.1710703652650; Sun, 17 Mar 2024 12:27:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Frantisek Borsik Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2024 20:26:56 +0100 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht via Starlink Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008846e90613e03bc2" Subject: Re: [Starlink] =?utf-8?q?It=E2=80=99s_the_Latency=2C_FCC?= X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2024 19:27:33 -0000 --0000000000008846e90613e03bc2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No matter the # of K in resolution or retina/not retina, I would aim for as much close to or even under 20 ms as an arbitrary number for VR/AR type of applications. Sure, we don't need to get there next year, but we are heading this direction, anyway. I have read a very detail write-up of the current state of VR headsets recently, and it touch not only latency, but also the display quality and prerequisites for human eyes: https://hugo.blog/2024/03/11/vision-pro/ All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik@gmail.com On Sun, Mar 17, 2024 at 6:00=E2=80=AFPM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > Le 16/03/2024 =C3=A0 20:10, Colin_Higbie via Starlink a =C3=A9crit : > > Just to be clear: 4K is absolutely a standard in streaming, with that > being the most popular TV being sold today. 8K is not and likely won't be > until 80+" TVs become the norm. > > I can agree screen size is one aspect pushing the higher resolutions to > acceptance, but there are some more signs indicating that 8K is just > round the corner, and 16K right after it. > > The recording consumer devices (cameras) already do 8K recording > cheaply, since a couple of years. > > New acronyms beyond simply resolutions are always ready to come up. HDR > (high dynamic range) was such an acronym accompanying 4K, so for 8K > there might be another, bringing more than just resolution, maybe even > more dynamic range, blacker blacks, wider gamut,-for goggles, etc. for a > same screen size. > > 8K and 16K playing devices might not have a surface to exhibit their > entire power, but when such surfaces become available, these 8K and 16K > playing devices will be ready for them, whereas 4K no. > > A similar evolution is witnessed by sound and by crypto: 44KHz CD was > enough for all, until SACD 88KHz came about, then DSD64, DSD128 and > today DSD 1024, which means DSD 2048 tomorrow. And the Dolby Atmos and > 11.1 outputs. These too dont yet have the speakers nor the ears to > take advantage of, but in the future they might. In crypto, the > 'post-quantum' algorithms are designed to resist brute force by > computers that dont exist publicly (a few hundred qubit range exists, > but 20.000 qubit range computer is needed) but when they will, these > crypto algos will be ready. > > Given that, one could imagine the bandwidth and latency by a 3D 16K > DSD1024 quantum-resistant ciphered multi-party visio-conference with > gloves, goggles and other interacting devices, with low latency over > starlink. > > The growth trends (4K...) can be identified and the needed latency > numbers can be projected. > > Alex > > > The few 8K streaming videos that exist are available primarily as > YouTube curiosities, with virtually no displays on the market that suppor= t > it yet and none of the big content providers like Netflix or Disney+ > provide 8K streams. > > > > Virtually all modern streaming programming on Netflix and Disney+ is 4K > HDR. That is the standard to support. > > > > The objective quality difference to the average human eye between SD an= d > HD is huge and changes whether you see the shape of a face or the detaile= d > expression on a face. Completely different viewing experience. The > difference between HD and 4K is significant on today's larger TV displays > (not so visible on the smaller displays that populated living rooms in > prior decades). On an OLED TV (not so much on an LCD) the difference > between SDR and HDR is bigger than the difference between HD and 4K. But > because HDR generally comes with 4K and tends not to be used much on HD > streams, the real standards to contrast are HD (in SDR) and 4K in HDR. > > > > The minimum bandwidth needed to reliably provide a 4K HDR stream is > about 15Mbps. Because of the way video compression works, a simpler scene > may get by with less than 10Mbps. A complex scene (fire, falling confetti > like at the end of the Super Bowl) can push this up to near 20Mbps. > Assuming some background activity on a typical network, safest is to thin= k > of 20Mbps as the effective minimum for 4K. Netflix says 25Mbps to add an > extra safety margin. > > > > True that latency doesn't matter much for streaming. For streaming, > unlike VoIP, video conferencing, and gaming, bandwidth is more important. > > > > VoIP, Video conferencing, and gaming drive low-latency use cases (web > browsing is also affected, but as long as the page starts to appear w/in > about 1s and has mostly completed within about 5s, users don't notice the > lag, which is why even geosync satellite Internet with its several hundre= d > ms latency can be acceptable for browsing). > > > > Video conferencing drives high-upload (5Mbps minimum) use cases. > > > > 4K streaming drives high-download (20Mbps per user or per stream with > some safety and overhead) use cases. > > > > These are all valid and important overall in architecting needs for an > ISP, but not all will necessarily be important to every user. > > > > Cheers, > > Colin > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Starlink On Behalf Of > starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net > > Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2024 1:37 PM > > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > Subject: Starlink Digest, Vol 36, Issue 20 > > > >> ... > > I think the 4K-latency discussion is a bit difficult, regardless of how > great the codecs are. > > > > For one, 4K can be considered outdated for those who look forward to 8K > and why not 16K; so we should forget 4K. 8K is delivered from space > already by a japanese provider, but not on IP. So, if we discuss TV > resolutions we should look at these (8K, 16K, and why not 3D 16K for ever > more strength testing). > > > > Second, 4K etc. are for TV. In TV the latency is rarely if ever an > issue. There are some rare cases where latency is very important in TV (= I > could think of betting in sports, time synch of clocks) but they dont loo= k > at such low latency as in our typical visioconference or remote surgery o= r > group music playing use-cases on Internet starlink. > > > > So, I dont know how much 4K, 8K, 16K might be imposing any new latency > requirement on starlink. > > > > Alex > > > > Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2024 18:21:48 +0100 > > From: Alexandre Petrescu > > To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=E2=80=99s the Latency, FCC > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed > > > > I retract the message, sorry, it is true that some teleoperation and > visioconf also use 4K. So the latency is important there too. > > > > A visioconf with 8K and 3D 16K might need latency reqs too. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Starlink mailing list > > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --0000000000008846e90613e03bc2 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No matter the # of K in resolution or retina/not retina, I= would aim for as much close to or even under 20 ms as an arbitrary number = for VR/AR type of applications.=C2=A0

Sure, we don't= need to get there next year, but we are heading this direction, anyway.

I have read a very detail write-up of the current st= ate of VR headsets recently, and it touch not only latency, but also the di= splay quality and prerequisites for human eyes:=C2=A0https://hugo.blog/2024/03/11/vision-pro/=

All the best,

<= p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)">Frank

=

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

=C2=A0

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal= , Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885=

Skype: casi= oa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com



On S= un, Mar 17, 2024 at 6:00=E2=80=AFPM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.n= et> wrote:

Le 16/03/2024 =C3=A0 20:10, Colin_Higbie via Starlink a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0: > Just to be clear: 4K is absolutely a standard in streaming, with that = being the most popular TV being sold today. 8K is not and likely won't = be until 80+" TVs become the norm.

I can agree screen size is one aspect pushing the higher resolutions to acceptance, but there are some more signs indicating that 8K is just
round the corner, and 16K right after it.

The recording consumer devices (cameras) already do 8K recording
cheaply, since a couple of years.

New acronyms beyond simply resolutions are always ready to come up.=C2=A0 H= DR
(high dynamic range) was such an acronym accompanying 4K, so for 8K
there might be another, bringing more than just resolution, maybe even
more dynamic range, blacker blacks, wider gamut,-for goggles, etc. for a same screen size.

8K and 16K playing devices might not have a surface to exhibit their
entire power, but when such surfaces become available, these 8K and 16K playing devices will be ready for them, whereas 4K no.

A similar evolution is witnessed by sound and by crypto: 44KHz CD was
enough for all, until SACD 88KHz came about, then DSD64, DSD128 and
today DSD 1024, which means DSD 2048 tomorrow.=C2=A0 And the Dolby Atmos an= d
11.1 outputs. =C2=A0 These too dont yet have the speakers nor the ears to <= br> take advantage of, but in the future they might.=C2=A0 In crypto, the
'post-quantum' algorithms are designed to resist brute force by computers that dont exist publicly=C2=A0 (a few hundred qubit range exists,=
but 20.000 qubit range computer is needed) but when they will, these
crypto algos will be ready.

Given that, one could imagine the bandwidth and latency by a 3D 16K
DSD1024 quantum-resistant ciphered multi-party visio-conference with
gloves, goggles and other interacting devices, with low latency over
starlink.

The growth trends (4K...) can be identified and the needed latency
numbers can be projected.

Alex

>=C2=A0 =C2=A0The few 8K streaming videos that exist are available prima= rily as YouTube curiosities, with virtually no displays on the market that = support it yet and none of the big content providers like Netflix or Disney= + provide 8K streams.
>
> Virtually all modern streaming programming on Netflix and Disney+ is 4= K HDR. That is the standard to support.
>
> The objective quality difference to the average human eye between SD a= nd HD is huge and changes whether you see the shape of a face or the detail= ed expression on a face. Completely different viewing experience. The diffe= rence between HD and 4K is significant on today's larger TV displays (n= ot so visible on the smaller displays that populated living rooms in prior = decades). On an OLED TV (not so much on an LCD) the difference between SDR = and HDR is bigger than the difference between HD and 4K. But because HDR ge= nerally comes with 4K and tends not to be used much on HD streams, the real= standards to contrast are HD (in SDR) and 4K in HDR.
>
> The minimum bandwidth needed to reliably provide a 4K HDR stream is ab= out 15Mbps. Because of the way video compression works, a simpler scene may= get by with less than 10Mbps. A complex scene (fire, falling confetti like= at the end of the Super Bowl) can push this up to near 20Mbps. Assuming so= me background activity on a typical network, safest is to think of 20Mbps a= s the effective minimum for 4K. Netflix says 25Mbps to add an extra safety = margin.
>
> True that latency doesn't matter much for streaming. For streaming= , unlike VoIP, video conferencing, and gaming, bandwidth is more important.=
>
> VoIP, Video conferencing, and gaming drive low-latency use cases (web = browsing is also affected, but as long as the page starts to appear w/in ab= out 1s and has mostly completed within about 5s, users don't notice the= lag, which is why even geosync satellite Internet with its several hundred= ms latency can be acceptable for browsing).
>
> Video conferencing drives high-upload (5Mbps minimum) use cases.
>
> 4K streaming drives high-download (20Mbps per user or per stream with = some safety and overhead) use cases.
>
> These are all valid and important overall in architecting needs for an= ISP, but not all will necessarily be important to every user.
>
> Cheers,
> Colin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Starlink <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net> On = Behalf Of starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net
> Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2024 1:37 PM
> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> Subject: Starlink Digest, Vol 36, Issue 20
>
>> ...
> I think the 4K-latency discussion is a bit difficult, regardless of ho= w great the codecs are.
>
> For one, 4K can be considered outdated for those who look forward to 8= K and why not 16K; so we should forget 4K.=C2=A0 8K is delivered from space= already by a japanese provider, but not on IP.=C2=A0 So, if we discuss TV = resolutions we should look at these (8K, 16K, and why not 3D 16K for ever m= ore strength testing).
>
> Second, 4K etc. are for TV.=C2=A0 In TV the latency is rarely if ever = an issue.=C2=A0 There are some rare cases where latency is very important i= n TV (I could think of betting in sports, time synch of clocks) but they do= nt look at such low latency as in our typical visioconference or remote sur= gery or group music playing use-cases on Internet starlink.
>
> So, I dont know how much 4K, 8K, 16K might be imposing any new latency= requirement on starlink.
>
> Alex
>
> Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2024 18:21:48 +0100
> From: Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>
> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=E2=80=99s the Latency, FCC
> Message-ID: <d04bf060-54e2-4828-854e-29c7f3e3de98@gmail.co= m>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DUTF-8; format=3Dflowed
>
> I retract the message, sorry, it is true that some teleoperation and v= isioconf also use 4K. So the latency is important there too.
>
> A visioconf with 8K and 3D 16K might need latency reqs too.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Starlink mailing list
> St= arlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink<= /a>
_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
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