From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com (mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::b2c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A5A13B29D; Wed, 1 May 2024 03:28:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-yb1-xb2c.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-de603e3072dso2944932276.1; Wed, 01 May 2024 00:28:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1714548493; x=1715153293; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=wqnvaJh7lMluwgFJJDF5RByVejKU+/8bcGPzb6h6ibM=; b=ASLgHfkyeorvdKhF1ZYOlXfx7ZA6JHIaYRlqEBdPhybxhIIkPR2hJpooGLs5TVMTiL jLjVvDdgivEByzYrA6PNiFOFil76dWdyVmUwyC53tdiKQ4qWjOK+6v00G2mS4zo3IIvz aLmmGZ2Z/Z7I1PU1cCl03fBKRlwciIlMkSmzuLFLPpJpfJ+j4Pa+8U5HyzYQjtL5WNBC MwdA+B+ONwH+OTcfRxtpaigNokBwx4h25ACp0HSOx2jf9d+PqyY/49aXV5kcos/rXb4j oRwu/P8kmBIQdRMxRQrPmcHoNwy9wHkXLeK6qNDC6f3LwdsD/4af4ANqnsEJDNTVbO0r sXrA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1714548493; x=1715153293; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=wqnvaJh7lMluwgFJJDF5RByVejKU+/8bcGPzb6h6ibM=; b=PohBnewM5AVYpdPXfxrE/DNJzbQglN9I08Qh3x6s1C5NRqqq9YAXbK012gg/SEyQI4 fjayLoRGYcxnyfoJY1ESP8HImlR5XsjRswq1vUlvC4dPvmGjRugnT7JnI8eMcyO1kQJQ KnT4BNu9O1yFNqAGWmJvlIlrY1kkwhl2mwJCFM4k6f7ttKdu0tqtmxCqCxmi5c6r0Q28 pxxY1k3Qc/p3UiWuIvcA8amn18ukrZ55uVzH2WVeSkpWSfman1e4YRbmz9SCO80ivvzY oxabeIGNfVO5EUuDNVMIYAOzmwgmjKqQMm2i+4VLyGcrBM4vby+1RThFwDWAwCLfgIAr G1Iw== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCVRjUJVG2VNvi+rzyYlXh8+x/eCgmi+M2bvcHgpaXz7nuFgVkAYUcPOCUIUeg+ZFi0xsQq1Eg6UH++Pfy7ncALLAxmWXJYDJ/+L/m/LfuUta6h29TlCD7EpSbuag32gz7CaqKLXF/HC+myXy7gLgw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxV4Ao/KaU9j3r2REuS0qnj/Lf4C5nDRMnOinTjjoO159pwV9IA oFwR2fy9OtJdoHKDK+ibMd3+t97e8ViLATg1LmSneylYeDxySIZQxuZ8A9aqg1BfJNckhZnzBHi TCQOJBFXCwTpxvtlht1T5KGGhTFg= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHzTme3HnNh3j+lqvOtF3/ZdSAM3xpYDLqzVt9kN/N6zDr9A2paLTklSiUsbTaWj9h78L5o0+JMScQccPAew60= X-Received: by 2002:a25:c7cf:0:b0:dcd:8a5:d5b8 with SMTP id w198-20020a25c7cf000000b00dcd08a5d5b8mr1788442ybe.49.1714548493585; Wed, 01 May 2024 00:28:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <1A972680-ECA5-42CA-BE8B-6BBD46FF5E74@ieee.org> <4B96B6C0-FB9A-40DD-9F04-F3F4FD18709E@ieee.org> In-Reply-To: <4B96B6C0-FB9A-40DD-9F04-F3F4FD18709E@ieee.org> From: Frantisek Borsik Date: Wed, 1 May 2024 09:27:37 +0200 Message-ID: To: Eugene Y Chang Cc: Dave Taht , Dave Taht via Starlink , Colin_Higbie , libreqos Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000e916cf06175f6d97" Subject: Re: [Starlink] =?utf-8?q?It=E2=80=99s_the_Latency=2C_FCC?= X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 07:28:14 -0000 --000000000000e916cf06175f6d97 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Basically, Eugene, the situation you are describing is calling for a competitor to disrupt them! This is such an old story - so many ISPs, especially WIPSs, started just because they either didn't have any option or all those options available were really terrible. Don't you want to pick up the glove? :P All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik@gmail.com On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 11:53=E2=80=AFPM Eugene Y Chang wrote: > Frank, > Thank you. What you suggest makes sense if it was objective! > > In my neighborhood, the ISP=E2=80=99s organization will feel they have no= thing to > learn from outsiders. (Worst, both major ISPs are just a subsidiary of > another organization. They just implement corporate standards. The local > managers are not motivated to deviate from their corporate marching order= s.) > > A public promotion (campaign) of modern best practices is needed. Then I > need to have this campaign spill over to the subscriber community. The > business community needs to be educated that their productivity will > improve. The social leaders need to learn that their community will get > better service. Then, and only then, can I see the ISP feeling the need t= o > improve. It helps if the improvement is just open-source software on thei= r > hardware investment. > > > Gene > ---------------------------------------------- > Eugene Chang > IEEE Life Senior Member > > > > On Apr 30, 2024, at 11:35 AM, Frantisek Borsik > wrote: > > Eugene - the easiest thing in the case of your ISP would be tell him abou= t > us: https://libreqos.io > > He can take a look on it, join our support chat and get help if he won't > be able to get it up and running: > https://chat.libreqos.io/join/fvu3cerayyaumo377xwvpev6/ > > But most of the ISPs don't need to talk with us at all, it's easy to > deploy. > > > All the best, > > Frank > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > > On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 11:22=E2=80=AFPM Eugene Y Chang via Starlink < > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> OK. I need help teaching my ISPs that they can do this without >> threatening their business model. >> Who can help me? >> >> A public demo? Yes! Are you saying that if our (my) neighborhood ISP >> adopted the lessons from the public demo, most of the latency issues wou= ld >> be solved? What won=E2=80=99t get fixed? How do we make this a widely ad= opted best >> practice? Am I crying over issues that are already fixed? Does this >> simplify the issues at the FCC? >> >> Gene >> ---------------------------------------------- >> Eugene Chang >> IEEE Life Senior Member >> >> >> >> >> On Apr 30, 2024, at 11:07 AM, Dave Taht wrote: >> >> Just fq codel or cake everything and you get all that. >> >> Libreqos is free software for those that do not want to update their dat= a >> plane. Perhaps we should do a public demo of what it can do for every te= ch >> on the planet. Dsl benefits, fiber does also (but it is the stats that >> matter more on fiber because the customer wifi becomes bloated) >> >> Starlink merely fq codeled their wifi and did some aqm work (not codel I >> think) to get the amazing results they are getting today. I don't have t= he >> waveform test results handy but they are amazing. I feel a sea change in >> the wind... >> >> >> >> On Tue, Apr 30, 2024, 12:51=E2=80=AFPM Eugene Y Chang via Starlink < >> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >> >>> Colin, >>> I am overwhelmed with all the reasons that prevent low(er) or consisten= t >>> latency. >>> I think that our best ISP offerings should deliver graceful, agile, or >>> nimble service. Sure, handle all the high-volume data. The high-volume >>> service just shouldn=E2=80=99t preclude graceful service. Yes, the curr= ent ISP >>> practices fall short. Can we help them improve their service? >>> >>> Am I asking too much? >>> >>> Gene >>> ---------------------------------------------- >>> Eugene Chang >>> IEEE Life Senior Member >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Apr 30, 2024, at 9:31 AM, Colin_Higbie via Starlink < >>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >>> >>> Gene, >>> >>> I think the lion's share of other people (many brilliant people here) o= n >>> this thread are focused on keeping latency down when under load. I >>> generally just read and don't contribute on those discussions, because >>> that's not my area of expertise. I only posted my point on bandwidth, n= ot >>> to detract from the importance of reducing latency, but to correct what= I >>> believed to be an important error on minimum bandwidth required to be a= ble >>> to perform standard Internet functions. >>> >>> To my surprise, there was pushback on the figure, so I've responded to >>> try to educate this group on streaming usage in the hope that the peopl= e >>> working on the latency problem under load (core reason for this group t= o >>> exist) can also be aware of the minimum bandwidth needs to ensure they >>> don't plan based on bad assumptions. >>> >>> For a single user, minimum bandwidth (independent of latency) needs to >>> be at least 25Mbps assuming the goal is to provide access to all standa= rd >>> Internet services. Anything short of that will deny users access to the >>> primary streaming services, and more specifically won't be able to watc= h 4K >>> HDR video, which is the market standard for streaming services today an= d >>> likely will remain at that level for the next several years. >>> >>> I think it's fine to offer lower-cost options that don't deliver 4K HDR >>> video (not everyone cares about that), but at least 25Mbps should be >>> available to an Internet customer for any new Internet service rollout. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Colin >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Starlink On Behalf Of >>> starlink-request@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 3:05 PM >>> To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> Subject: Starlink Digest, Vol 37, Issue 15 >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> Message: 1 >>> Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024 09:04:43 -1000 >>> From: Eugene Y Chang >>> To: Colin_Higbie , Dave Taht via Starlink >>> >>> Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=E2=80=99s the Latency, FCC >>> Message-ID: <438B1BC4-D465-497A-B6BA-700E1D411036@ieee.org> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" >>> >>> I am always surprised how complicated these discussions become. >>> (Surprised mostly because I forgot the kind of issues this community ca= re >>> about.) The discussion doesn=E2=80=99t shed light on the following scen= arios. >>> >>> While watching stream content, activating controls needed to switch >>> content sometimes (often?) have long pauses. I attribute that to buffer >>> bloat and high latency. >>> >>> With a happy household user watching streaming media, a second user >>> could have terrible shopping experience with Amazon. The interactive >>> response could be (is often) horrible. (Personally, I would be doing em= ail >>> and working on a shared doc. The Amazon analogy probably applies to mor= e >>> people.) >>> >>> How can we deliver graceful performance to both persons in a household? >>> Is seeking graceful performance too complicated to improve? >>> (I said =E2=80=9Cgraceful=E2=80=9D to allow technical flexibility.) >>> >>> Gene >>> ---------------------------------------------- >>> Eugene Chang >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Starlink mailing list >>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> > > --000000000000e916cf06175f6d97 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Basically, Eugene, the situation you are describing is cal= ling for a competitor to disrupt them!

This is such an o= ld story - so many ISPs, especially WIPSs, started just because they either= didn't have any option or all those options available were really terr= ible.

Don't you want to pick up the glove? :P<= /div>

=
All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik=

<= /u>=C2=A0

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik=

Sign= al, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: ca= sioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com



On= Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 11:53=E2=80=AFPM Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org> wrote:
Frank,
Thank yo= u. What you suggest makes sense if it was objective!

In my neighborhood, the ISP=E2=80=99s organization will feel they have n= othing to learn from outsiders. (Worst, both major ISPs are just a subsidia= ry of another organization. They just implement corporate standards. The lo= cal managers are not motivated to deviate from their corporate marching ord= ers.)

A public promotion (campaign) of modern best= practices is needed. Then I need to have this campaign spill over to the s= ubscriber community. The business community needs to be educated that their= productivity will improve. The social leaders need to learn that their com= munity will get better service. Then, and only then, can I see the ISP feel= ing the need to improve. It helps if the improvement is just open-source so= ftware on their hardware investment.


= Gene
----------------------------------------------
Eugene Chang
IEEE Life Senior Member



On Apr 30, 2024, at 11:35 AM, Frant= isek Borsik <frantisek.borsik@gmail.com> wrote:

Eugene - the easiest thing in the case of your ISP would be tell him abo= ut us: https://libreqos.= io

He can take a look on it, join our support chat a= nd get help if he won't be able to get it up and running:=C2=A0https://chat.libreqos.io/join/fvu3cerayyaumo377xwvpev6/
<= br>
But most of the ISPs don't need to talk with us at all, i= t's easy to deploy.


All the best,

=

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Bo= rsik

= =C2=A0

https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik=

= Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +42077523088= 5

Sky= pe: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com



On Tue, Apr 30, 2024 at 11:22=E2=80=AFPM Eugene Y Chang via Starlink &l= t;starl= ink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
OK. I need help teaching my ISPs that t= hey can do this without threatening their business model.
Who can help = me?

A public demo? Yes! Are you saying that if our= (my) neighborhood ISP adopted the lessons from the public demo, most of th= e latency issues would be solved? What won=E2=80=99t get fixed? How do we m= ake this a widely adopted best practice? Am I crying over issues that are a= lready fixed? Does this simplify the issues at the FCC?

Gene
----------------------------------------------=
Eugene Chang
IEEE Life Senior Member




On Apr 30, 2024, at 11:07 AM, Dave = Taht <dave.taht= @gmail.com> wrote:

Just fq codel or = cake everything and you get all that.

Libreqos is free software for those that do not want to update th= eir data plane. Perhaps we should do a public demo of what it can do for ev= ery tech on the planet. Dsl benefits, fiber does also (but it is the stats = that matter more on fiber because the customer wifi becomes bloated)
<= div dir=3D"auto">
Starlink merely fq codeled the= ir wifi and did some aqm work (not codel I think) to get the amazing result= s they are getting today. I don't have the waveform test results handy = but they are amazing. I feel a sea change in the wind...



On Tue, Apr 30, 2024, 12:51=E2= =80=AFPM Eugene Y Chang via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wr= ote:
= Colin,
I am overwhelmed with all the reasons that prevent low(er) or co= nsistent latency.
I think that our best ISP offerings should deli= ver graceful, agile, or nimble service. Sure, handle all the high-volume da= ta. The high-volume service just shouldn=E2=80=99t preclude graceful servic= e. Yes, the current ISP practices fall short. Can we help them improve thei= r service?

Am I asking too much?

Gene
----------------------------------------------=
Eugene Chang
IEEE Life Senior Member




On Apr 30, 2024, at 9:31 AM, Colin_= Higbie via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> = wrote:

Gene,

I think the lion's share of othe= r people (many brilliant people here) on this thread are focused on keeping= latency down when under load. I generally just read and don't contribu= te on those discussions, because that's not my area of expertise. I onl= y posted my point on bandwidth, not to detract from the importance of reduc= ing latency, but to correct what I believed to be an important error on min= imum bandwidth required to be able to perform standard Internet functions. =

To my surprise, there was pushback on the figure, so I've respo= nded to try to educate this group on streaming usage in the hope that the p= eople working on the latency problem under load (core reason for this group= to exist) can also be aware of the minimum bandwidth needs to ensure they = don't plan based on bad assumptions.

For a single user, minimum = bandwidth (independent of latency) needs to be at least 25Mbps assuming the= goal is to provide access to all standard Internet services. Anything shor= t of that will deny users access to the primary streaming services, and mor= e specifically won't be able to watch 4K HDR video, which is the market= standard for streaming services today and likely will remain at that level= for the next several years.

I think it's fine to offer lower-co= st options that don't deliver 4K HDR video (not everyone cares about th= at), but at least 25Mbps should be available to an Internet customer for an= y new Internet service rollout.

Cheers,
Colin


-----Ori= ginal Message-----
From: Starlink <starlink-bounc= es@lists.bufferbloat.net> On Behalf Of starlink-= request@lists.bufferbloat.net
Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2024 3:05 PM<= br>To: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
Subject: Starlink = Digest, Vol 37, Issue 15


---------------------------------------= -------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2024= 09:04:43 -1000
From: Eugene Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.org>= ;
To: Colin_Higbie <CHigbie1@Higbie.name>, Dave Taht via Sta= rlink
<starl= ink@lists.bufferbloat.net>
Subject: Re: [Starlink] It=E2=80=99s t= he Latency, FCC
Message-ID: <438B1BC4-D465= -497A-B6BA-700E1D411036@ieee.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; chars= et=3D"utf-8"

I am always surprised how complicated these d= iscussions become. (Surprised mostly because I forgot the kind of issues th= is community care about.) The discussion doesn=E2=80=99t shed light on the = following scenarios.

While watching stream content, activating contr= ols needed to switch content sometimes (often?) have long pauses. I attribu= te that to buffer bloat and high latency.

With a happy household use= r watching streaming media, a second user could have terrible shopping expe= rience with Amazon. The interactive response could be (is often) horrible. = (Personally, I would be doing email and working on a shared doc. The Amazon= analogy probably applies to more people.)

How can we deliver gracef= ul performance to both persons in a household?
Is seeking graceful perfo= rmance too complicated to improve?
(I said =E2=80=9Cgraceful=E2=80=9D to= allow technical flexibility.)

Gene
-----------------------------= -----------------
Eugene Chang

__________________________________= _____________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.buffer= bloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listin= fo/starlink

_________= ______________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/sta= rlink

__________________________________= _____________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

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