From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-qt1-x82a.google.com (mail-qt1-x82a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31D1A3B29D for ; Tue, 4 Jun 2024 07:55:34 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-qt1-x82a.google.com with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-43fc6795babso29748821cf.1 for ; Tue, 04 Jun 2024 04:55:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1717502133; x=1718106933; darn=lists.bufferbloat.net; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=qtXOnsX55cVKszIcRytN6bslnpulm1d1Fd+1W2050aY=; b=fwsJdn8Oyx8wGaXkydK3v7x0pS+MfYkZqjCKHWb4PPir8Xja9Xc6OjAhFTK59aULQE J/EShoKZU7c8Q4KQiTLHlnSz0bwI9EAo5vuRKz4MthZJ0JzF93vX0TodmgnXTl9TkTCL q2GNpryPKyKun3XEedGbzJUm3hvyH/dulmJ8Jbn+gLL/V+QCCmfUmqYDQa049mKHjH1d /ZYPMtI7snEPYoD4d9F6UkRY03o3laJgAVrgBKmkmTJ49ZvqXi2qO9u1idTokqBZTEX1 QVoljif+10NfOpAjztxvgRrklupgfWFfpQz0Po7Zw76OQ1HTeYRqoHaBJzJqoPxeeSuM yXiA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1717502133; x=1718106933; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=qtXOnsX55cVKszIcRytN6bslnpulm1d1Fd+1W2050aY=; b=kxQVEgE4ChY5ZpFdwqZXPQCKawDShJbUZ3y38qfeTYZvGkOU8vJEX6ZLhG6R+9an37 AovYD2xYxEeYol5167dDVVcLB7kr/OJ6mjinujPUoC4zN+8ERAIIgEGlLXLJVG/tGfBp Ja6SI9IcW5IlmBPntynCHe0vRToHVb5+KEUOWwSbnG8muQS+SSqTherOlkvX12zHkwkE /unP03JrWsLu4mERJ/wZK5rI/SxEzvdG55JHr0E0I5A/i8cj1PvBXHSFeGFw7oW/lyb4 604LskH3SCqwxImfEoTU7Sy5xz1we96LF3t9RyhbA9AeZJWqLOvjCqM9JGi1SPEAtiLI HXxQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwznFXNLslu2apqZMfDPTdESMnHLsFYjUJqXAN96PIaQV8ZFmxe Ynr205XL3eg9nyLl9pyFOlv7AT2ufdumCU8cjE5ks4RjAN7Be3qmCx48a8t1QQpWyJvl9zgpCT9 h2Ehnu83KTvFci+5xuzpsnFYeSMw= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IFJjAFuK4KuvTw/VbkenIElRheZZpVgtnvYhq3voxdt0Ni7W4AyZXyMutzW7eLze+HPx6HDujKqsSVZJBVUTNQ= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:7fc2:0:b0:43e:3d64:89f with SMTP id d75a77b69052e-43ff52593b5mr128741741cf.30.1717502133193; Tue, 04 Jun 2024 04:55:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <32AD770E-336E-4CF4-8B1B-8AE7353981CC@ieee.org> <030p06nr-4169-9341-nn73-4n06nprp9863@ynat.uz> <3F548B50-D476-4E54-B18E-3418978105CE@ieee.org> In-Reply-To: From: Frantisek Borsik Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2024 13:54:56 +0200 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000008cd759061a0f2048" Subject: Re: [Starlink] SpaceX/Starlink says it's ready for a fall satellite-to-cell service with T-Mobile X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 04 Jun 2024 11:55:34 -0000 --0000000000008cd759061a0f2048 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The whole article is worth reading, but tl;dr; "The promise of D2D is alluring =E2=80=93 that we can be connected wherever= we are =E2=80=93 no more not-spots and the certainty of always being able to conta= ct others. But the reality is some way from this. The only existing D2D service is Apple=E2=80=99s iPhone emergency communications which offers mes= saging to the emergency services and vehicle assistance in 16 countries. This does not appear to be a service Apple thinks it can charge for at present. Those offerings that have the greatest potential for ubiquity are within the MSS spectrum. But here bandwidths are too constrained to deliver full service capabilities. Other MSS operators such as Iridium have struggled to put together a commercial D2D proposition (although their core business remains strong). The other approach of using MS spectrum has strong backers in the form of SpaceX and T-Mobile as well as multiple promising start-ups. But it is beset with challenges of avoiding interference with existing terrestrial use, overcoming restrictions in border areas, ensuring compliance with hundreds of regulators, of which only one has a defined policy towards D2D at present, doing deals with hundreds of operators and managing other regulatory hurdles. Only US-based coverage looks likely any time soon and the true extent of that remains unclear. With limited offers, the consumer interest will be less. Quite how much less is very unclear, but it is clear that the business case will be challenging. Most consumers appear to have limited interest in paying more per month for better coverage. In summary, D2D=E2=80=99s alluring promise of ubiquitous fully-featured glo= bal connectivity is not likely to be realised any time soon, if ever, but a reduced service level in a few countries may be sufficient to justify launching suitable satellites." All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik@gmail.com On Tue, Jun 4, 2024 at 1:43=E2=80=AFPM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > does it say whether it is text only, data only, or everything including > voice? > Le 04/06/2024 =C3=A0 13:20, Frantisek Borsik via Starlink a =C3=A9crit : > > Some additional reading from William Webb: > > > https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/satellite-direct-device-workable-william-w= ebb-sonke/?trackingId=3DSjha4DY8SqONFA9g%2Bb5b%2Bw%3D%3D > > All the best, > > Frank > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik@gmail.com > > > On Tue, Jun 4, 2024 at 2:54=E2=80=AFAM David Lang wrote: > >> Eugene Y Chang wrote: >> >> >> On Jun 3, 2024, at 12:41 PM, David Lang wrote: >> >> >> >> Eugene Y Chang wrote: >> >> >> >>> I expect low data rate because the distance will fall back to a lowe= r >> coding rate. >> >> >> >> I think it's going to be more a matter of very large cells, so many >> people sharing the available bandwidth >> >> >> >>> I observe a difference in my phone=E2=80=99s batter life between urb= an and >> rural usage. I expect the battery life to be significantly reduced with >> Starlink. >> >>> And yes=E2=80=A6 if the phone isn=E2=80=99t communicating then the b= attery life isn=E2=80=99t >> drawn down much=E2=80=A6 >> >> >> >> In my experience, a phone that's trying to find a tower uses more >> power than one that has a tower, but is otherwise idle >> > >> > When the phone is searching for a tower, it is transmitting at maximum >> power. >> > Then, the phone adjusts the transmit power according to the distance t= o >> the tower, >> > In an urban environment, the distance to the tower is usually less >> (i.e. smaller cells due to subscriber density). >> > In a rural environment, there is more distance to the tower, and the >> phone is transmitting at higher power (i.e., towers are farther apart fo= r >> larger cells due to fewer subscribers per tower, up to the max tower >> separation.) >> > When you are mobile, the power is proportionate to the mean distance t= o >> the tower during your operations. >> >> and for direct-to-satellite, it's going to be a max power situation, >> similar to >> rural. >> >> But when a phone is not connected, how frequent are it's searches for >> towers >> (especially if it has multiple bands to check) compared to the >> 'keepalive' pings >> when it is connected? if it's doing more transmissions for it's search >> and >> attempts to connect than it does while connected and just confirming the >> connection, that could eat more power. >> >> David Lang > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing listStarlink@lists.bufferbloat.nethttps://lists.bufferbl= oat.net/listinfo/starlink > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --0000000000008cd759061a0f2048 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The whole article is worth reading, but tl;dr;

"The promise of D2D is alluring =E2=80=93 that we ca= n be connected wherever we are =E2=80=93 no more not-spots and the certaint= y of always being able to contact others. But the reality is some way from = this. The only existing D2D service is Apple=E2=80=99s iPhone emergency com= munications which offers messaging to the emergency services and vehicle as= sistance in 16 countries. This does not appear to be a service Apple thinks= it can charge for at present.

Those offerings that have the g= reatest potential for ubiquity are within the MSS spectrum. But here bandwi= dths are too constrained to deliver full service capabilities. Other MSS op= erators such as Iridium have struggled to put together a commercial D2D pro= position (although their core business remains strong).

The ot= her approach of using MS spectrum has strong backers in the form of SpaceX = and T-Mobile as well as multiple promising start-ups. But it is beset with = challenges of avoiding interference with existing terrestrial use, overcomi= ng restrictions in border areas, ensuring compliance with hundreds of regul= ators, of which only one has a defined policy towards D2D at present, doing= deals with hundreds of operators and managing other regulatory hurdles. On= ly US-based coverage looks likely any time soon and the true extent of that= remains unclear.

With limited offers, the consumer interest w= ill be less. Quite how much less is very unclear, but it is clear that the = business case will be challenging. Most consumers appear to have limited in= terest in paying more per month for better coverage.

In summar= y, D2D=E2=80=99s alluring promise of ubiquitous fully-featured global conne= ctivity is not likely to be realised any time soon, if ever, but a reduced = service level in a few countries may be sufficient to justify launching sui= table satellites."



All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

=C2=A0

= https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +4= 21919416714=C2=A0

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

= frantisek.borsik@gmail.com



On Tue, Jun 4, 2024 at 1:43= =E2=80=AFPM Alexandre Petrescu via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

does it say whether it is text only, data only, or everything including voice?

Le 04/06/2024 =C3=A0 13:20, Frantisek Borsik via Starlink a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
=20
Some additional reading from William Webb:


All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik

=C2=A0

https://www.linkedin.com/in/fra= ntisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714=C2= =A0

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik@gmail.com



On Tue, Jun 4, 2024 at 2:54= =E2=80=AFAM David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
Eugene Y Chang wrote:

>> On Jun 3, 2024, at 12:41 PM, David Lang <david@lang.hm> wrote:
>>
>> Eugene Y Chang wrote:
>>
>>> I expect low data rate because the distance will fall back to a lower coding rate.
>>
>> I think it's going to be more a matter of very large cells, so many people sharing the available bandwidth
>>
>>> I observe a difference in my phone=E2=80=99s batter = life between urban and rural usage. I expect the battery life to be significantly reduced with Starlink.
>>> And yes=E2=80=A6 if the phone isn=E2=80=99t communic= ating then the battery life isn=E2=80=99t drawn down much=E2=80=A6
>>
>> In my experience, a phone that's trying to find a tower uses more power than one that has a tower, but is otherwise idle
>
> When the phone is searching for a tower, it is transmitting at maximum power.
> Then, the phone adjusts the transmit power according to the distance to the tower,
> In an urban environment, the distance to the tower is usually less (i.e. smaller cells due to subscriber density).
> In a rural environment, there is more distance to the tower, and the phone is transmitting at higher power (i.e., towers are farther apart for larger cells due to fewer subscribers per tower, up to the max tower separation.)
> When you are mobile, the power is proportionate to the mean distance to the tower during your operations.

and for direct-to-satellite, it's going to be a max power situation, similar to
rural.

But when a phone is not connected, how frequent are it's searches for towers
(especially if it has multiple bands to check) compared to the 'keepalive' pings
when it is connected? if it's doing more transmissions for it's search and
attempts to connect than it does while connected and just confirming the
connection, that could eat more power.

David Lang

_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin=
k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
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