From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-lf1-x136.google.com (mail-lf1-x136.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72F833B29E for ; Mon, 26 Sep 2022 16:36:08 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-lf1-x136.google.com with SMTP id d42so12801512lfv.0 for ; Mon, 26 Sep 2022 13:36:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=perens.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=KYSaJCLx7Oh0daxK3FN+t3cV/mxizfes+Jm8NSetLxA=; b=t7eDNYkG1CBkmfRPeOcPqqDCv5sqRBQGwuplVMrxazIBZr8fp+/rzR+7YDODThkTm3 0EpbvIay0oINR0XpgMmLyDShd5IfNb7NbCJzcALHQTRDb6VLweHLSYD/FNsUJa/bEupt KWCfJ0Pf145eWUFounOhcEefSYq/w54HIvOiA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=KYSaJCLx7Oh0daxK3FN+t3cV/mxizfes+Jm8NSetLxA=; b=PWOHM0zlH1adcLVD2wrrIHRFQXCVMrR4mI9ZCGofmcPXkYxUSilphvWyd4bKgK0vZu cwBk0wfjqLUAABMmeZwEeqIsX/aK2NLx0//wD2VykPrLo/HmVKgoEstblII5RUG3fot/ MM4R3iLhXrsbzRazboi9m+NP6QWbACq+rfG2pqGbFvRhhmJOBH1yZtV5njDGt0ARj2Se DUsi0D9EMgAMwK2ATsLtWWo/iMHZO6pgC1bQ5/PKk7p4O2S5XNN2N7HSdPJuXDVhgXjm 3zY8xFQn2AXvFq9z3Gf7iN5Qvt93Vr8d2T6gPRNDzlqAAWKPoCnfIlKHdLMKhapUGYXV LoGw== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf2IhNNtgVUx9LEcrB6D50jQbU3tkpJPtFJ6jmpY4lXmzXZk42VR WD1yw+IYFOe5RJG2LK64aaURUJnwNLEP8NtEyAVGxA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM5Tcn/la4Rb4JTn74D5kPd4wfhtD0Takizb/F9iFJv/XslYNOX6m/rz1glUZDjxtPRDVJvH+enogluC7GLejv4= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6512:3b1e:b0:49b:49d9:cb9e with SMTP id f30-20020a0565123b1e00b0049b49d9cb9emr9162658lfv.201.1664224567074; Mon, 26 Sep 2022 13:36:07 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <060F7695-D48E-413C-9501-54ECC651ABEB@cable.comcast.com> <07C46DD5-7359-410E-8820-82B319944618@alum.mit.edu> <39E525B8-D356-4F76-82FF-F1F0B3183908@ieee.org> In-Reply-To: <39E525B8-D356-4F76-82FF-F1F0B3183908@ieee.org> From: Bruce Perens Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2022 13:35:55 -0700 Message-ID: To: Eugene Y Chang Cc: Dave Taht , Dave Taht via Starlink Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000025c3ef05e99a7a42" Subject: Re: [Starlink] It's still the starlink latency... X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2022 20:36:08 -0000 --00000000000025c3ef05e99a7a42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 1:19 PM Eugene Y Chang wrote: > You already know this. Bufferbloat is a symptom and not the cause. > Bufferbloat grows when there are (1) periods of low or no bandwidth or (2) > periods of insufficient bandwidth (aka network congestion). > > If I understand this correctly, just a software update cannot make > bufferbloat go away. It might improve the speed of recovery (e.g. throw > away all time sensitive UDP messages). > This is not my understanding. Bufferbloat is caused by too much buffering in your host, the endpoint, and all intermediate nodes. As a result, they feed packets into the network faster than all of the intermediate nodes can pass them on. And then your latency-sensitive packet gets stuck at the end of those buffers because nobody across the network honors quality-of-service markings in the packet or even uses them honestly. Dave can no doubt say more. --00000000000025c3ef05e99a7a42 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


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On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 1:19 PM Eugen= e Y Chang <eugene.chang@ieee.or= g> wrote:
You already know this. Bufferblo= at is a symptom and not the cause. Bufferbloat grows when there are (1) per= iods of low or no bandwidth or (2) periods of insufficient bandwidth (aka n= etwork congestion).

If I understand this correctly, just= a software update cannot make bufferbloat go away. It might improve the sp= eed of recovery (e.g. throw away all time sensitive UDP messages).

This is not my understanding.

Bufferbloat is caused by too much buffering in your host, t= he endpoint, and all intermediate nodes. As a result, they feed packets int= o the network faster than all of the intermediate nodes can pass them on. A= nd then your latency-sensitive packet gets stuck at the end of those buffer= s because nobody across the network honors quality-of-service markings in t= he packet or even uses them honestly.

Dave can no = doubt say more.
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