From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ed1-x52e.google.com (mail-ed1-x52e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::52e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9B9EE3CBD9 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 19:30:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ed1-x52e.google.com with SMTP id z21so3429254edb.4 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 16:30:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=perens.com; s=google; t=1678836656; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=Ji8DNblrqyw6Yfc3z+i7wY0dgsn/cmaDnvc+x9d+o4s=; b=CewhiU2QhzlrtPmf2yy0L3Kz0f6E2gVF6+jd++H/qTwFNrOO2jIVQDqionPvMW3ZPt nlEzIWGRZDeSq6aunUw6FLx4dK1Xteeq18HMfvlnI7rQIpa7zw/4rXi2tvgJgTGFOw/l eYw4QLWHg+rkQhho8lOH61s47fhIW30hmh9yA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; t=1678836656; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=Ji8DNblrqyw6Yfc3z+i7wY0dgsn/cmaDnvc+x9d+o4s=; b=OdpwiG5bDr07aIBP3nPhpTaHaen9vqBRRv+h53lnI3bACcdZ3Volf+SDJVCIMOM6OA euZKduLQ5pOE6WRhJdlM3hiUH29EJRHvH+z2ppr9Bpg62o2uI7r8+uExUesC8tcw72zN 30wh4zf1TsyMNSFP1sBRHdJuPSyjg7zUTxNIpGcokPsBJBhm8k3JO9SAmGUxcAnvTitU plNzjHpacYDM9WyXbW2V3H8xYxDJ9kUyqsjgKLOjbgbM7UhcoGIJTNCUGb1/rniAo7k8 gtqfR56JrhYFW0kj+05gdqeIO865ZKdk5/1kacf4J3COxCsYU5FMNOQyQ4oG+SLe0tra PNQA== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKXSv6Nzv5PPvELtrNXn6TxxMGWQfN8GkDbK6Kvfe3pNvftlQIJA A/IwX3OKLERAVZX1kHcV657RIn+yaPfb4NHVRJhmiw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set8v5GDWebPEGwTYqYF2Eeprrz8ZqSF3YgPBkIYs5l0aCkCoYGH7zpTPVTz8oK2yp2rQgVxLzOizf8cD20PScyM= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:8552:b0:8ae:9f1e:a1c5 with SMTP id h18-20020a170906855200b008ae9f1ea1c5mr2047382ejy.3.1678836656364; Tue, 14 Mar 2023 16:30:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3CD0B9E6-0B2A-4A70-8F53-ED0822DF77A6@gmx.de> <13DE6E53-665F-4C20-BBE2-70E685421E9D@gmx.de> <22C819FA-DDD7-4B9B-8C09-8008D4273287@gmx.de> <5e7fac51071bdbb20837e72e7eedfc7c@rjmcmahon.com> <3f45d2a0b6e46d7b2775fb801e805f93@rjmcmahon.com> <70F71290-C6CB-4D19-8A88-F0F17C0BDDA2@gmx.de> <5e0cd693c4749d128dbb48d6c1129071@rjmcmahon.com> <2ab2983d-6beb-49cb-8c35-e481cbfdc7a3@Spark> <89c55d67-86f0-494d-a09e-c9aeebe46dc0@rjmcmahon.com> <70CBB03C-4394-4A93-BBB5-7449DC1AAF9C@gmx.de> <063359bf-5bf3-4688-852c-a7d81e6b80a3@rjmcmahon.com> <21f2252ff57e60dc52e7b9a6db8ba936@rjmcmahon.com> In-Reply-To: <21f2252ff57e60dc52e7b9a6db8ba936@rjmcmahon.com> From: Bruce Perens Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 16:30:44 -0700 Message-ID: To: rjmcmahon Cc: dan , libreqos , Dave Taht via Starlink , Rpm , bloat Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000089efd405f6e49edb" Subject: Re: [Starlink] [LibreQoS] [Bloat] [Rpm] On FiWi X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2023 23:30:57 -0000 --00000000000089efd405f6e49edb Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Let's remember some of the reasons why a lot of wireless-last-mile and mesh networking plans have failed to date. Most people who hand-wave about wireless _still_ don't understand Fresnel zones. Most don't account for the possibility of multipath. Or the hidden transmitter problem. Or absorption. Or noise. Spread spectrum does not cure all ills. You are *trading* bandwidth for processing gain. You also trade digital modulations that reach incredibly low s/n for bandwidth. You can only extract so much of your link budget from processing or efficient modulation. Many modern systems already operate at that point. All usable spectrum has been allocated at any particular time. At least 50% is spent on supporting legacy systems. Your greatest spectrum availability will be at the highest possible frequency, just because of 1/f. There your largest consideration will be absorption. Thanks Bruce On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 12:30=E2=80=AFPM rjmcmahon via Starlink < starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > The design has to be flexible so DIY w/local firewall is fine. > > I'll disagree though that early & late majority care about firewalls. > They want high-quality access that is secure & private. Both of these > require high skill network engineers on staff. DIY is hard here. > Intrusion detection systems, etc. are non-trivial. The days of broadcast > NFL networks are over. > > I disagree to with nobody wanting to pay for quality access to knowledge > based networks. Not that many years ago, nobody wanted to pay to teach > women to read either. Then, nobody wanted to pay for university. I grew > up in the latter and figured out that I needed come up with payment > somehow to develop my brain. Otherwise, I was screwed. > > So, if it's a chatGPT, advertising system - sure wrong market. Free > shit, even provided by Google, is mostly shit. > > Connect to something real without the privacy invasions, no queueing, > etc. I think it's worth it in spades despite the idea that we shouldn't > invest so people, regardless of gender, etc. can learn to read. > > Bob > > > end users are still going to want their own router/firewall. That's > > my point, I don't see how you can have that on-prem firewall while > > having a remote radio that's useful. > > > > I would adamantly oppose anyone I know passing their firewall off to > > the upstream vendor. I run an MSP and I would offer a customer to > > drop my services if they were to buy into something like this on the > > business side. > > > > So I really only see this sort of concept for campus networks where > > the end users are 'part' of the entity. > > > > On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 12:14=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon > > wrote: > >> > >> It's not discrete routers. It's more like a transceiver. WiFi is > >> already splitting at the MAC for MLO. I perceive two choices for the > >> split, one at the PHY DAC or, two, a minimalist 802.3 tunneling of > >> 802.11 back to the FiWi head end. Use 802.3 to leverage merchant > >> silicon supporting up to 200 or so RRHs or even move the baseband DSP > >> there. I think a split PHY may not work well but a thorough eng > >> analysis is still warranted. > >> > >> Bob > >> > >> > >> > >> Get BlueMail for Android > >> On Mar 14, 2023, at 10:54 AM, dan wrote: > >>>> > >>>> You could always do it yourself. > >>>> > >>>> Most people need high skilled network engineers to provide them IT > >>>> services. This need is only going to grow and grow. We can help by > >>>> producing better and simpler offerings, be they DIY or by service > >>>> providers. > >>>> > >>>> Steve Job's almost didn't support the iPhone development because he > >>>> hated "the orifices." Probably time for many of us to revisit our > >>>> belief set. Does it move the needle, even if imperfectly? > >>>> > >>>> FiWi blows the needle off the gauge by my judgment. Who does it is > >>>> secondary. > >>>> > >>>> Bob > >>> > >>> > >>> most people are unwilling to pay for those services also lol. > >>> > >>> I don't see the paradigm of discreet routers/nat per prem anytime > >>> soon. If you subtract that piece of it then we're basically just > >>> talking XGSPON or similar. > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --=20 Bruce Perens K6BP --00000000000089efd405f6e49edb Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Let's remember some of the reasons why a lot of wirele= ss-last-mile and mesh networking plans have failed to date.

<= div>Most people who hand-wave about wireless _still_ don't understand F= resnel zones.
Most don't account for the possibility of multi= path.
Or the hidden transmitter problem.
Or absorption.=
Or noise.

Spread spectrum does not cure= all ills. You are trading bandwidth for processing gain.
= You also trade digital modulations that reach incredibly low s/n for bandwi= dth.
You can only extract so much of your link budget from proces= sing or efficient modulation. Many modern systems already operate at that p= oint.

All usable spectrum has been allocated at an= y particular time. At least 50% is spent on supporting legacy systems.

Your greatest spectrum=C2=A0availability will be at th= e highest possible frequency, just because of 1/f. There your largest consi= deration will be absorption.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks<= /div>

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bruce

=

On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 12:30=E2=80=AFPM rjmcmahon via Star= link <starlink@lists.b= ufferbloat.net> wrote:
The design has to be flexible so DIY w/local firewall is fine= .

I'll disagree though that early & late majority care about firewall= s.
They want high-quality access that is secure & private. Both of these <= br> require high skill network engineers on staff. DIY is hard here.
Intrusion detection systems, etc. are non-trivial. The days of broadcast NFL networks are over.

I disagree to with nobody wanting to pay for quality access to knowledge based networks. Not that many years ago, nobody wanted to pay to teach
women to read either. Then, nobody wanted to pay for university. I grew up in the latter and figured out that I needed come up with payment
somehow to develop my brain. Otherwise, I was screwed.

So, if it's a chatGPT, advertising system - sure wrong market. Free shit, even provided by Google, is mostly shit.

Connect to something real without the privacy invasions, no queueing,
etc. I think it's worth it in spades despite the idea that we shouldn&#= 39;t
invest so people, regardless of gender, etc. can learn to read.

Bob

> end users are still going to want their own router/firewall.=C2=A0 Tha= t's
> my point, I don't see how you can have that on-prem firewall while=
> having a remote radio that's useful.
>
> I would adamantly oppose anyone I know passing their firewall off to > the upstream vendor.=C2=A0 =C2=A0I run an MSP and I would offer a cust= omer to
> drop my services if they were to buy into something like this on the > business side.
>
> So I really only see this sort of concept for campus networks where > the end users are 'part' of the entity.
>
> On Tue, Mar 14, 2023 at 12:14=E2=80=AFPM Robert McMahon
> <rjmcm= ahon@rjmcmahon.com> wrote:
>>
>> It's not=C2=A0 discrete routers. It's more like a transcei= ver. WiFi is
>> already splitting at the MAC for MLO. I perceive two choices for t= he
>> split, one at the PHY DAC or, two, a minimalist 802.3 tunneling of=
>> 802.11 back to the FiWi head end. Use 802.3 to leverage merchant <= br> >> silicon supporting up to 200 or so RRHs or even move the baseband = DSP
>> there. I think a split PHY may not work well but a thorough eng >> analysis is still warranted.
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>
>>
>> Get BlueMail for Android
>> On Mar 14, 2023, at 10:54 AM, dan <dandenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 You could always do it yourself.
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 Most people need high skilled network engineers to p= rovide them IT
>>>> services. This need is only going to grow and grow. We can= help by
>>>> producing better and simpler offerings, be they DIY or by = service
>>>> providers.
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 Steve Job's almost didn't support the iPhone= development because he
>>>> hated "the orifices." Probably time for many of = us to revisit our
>>>> belief set. Does it move the needle, even if imperfectly?<= br> >>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 FiWi blows the needle off the gauge by my judgment. = Who does it is
>>>> secondary.
>>>>
>>>>=C2=A0 Bob
>>>
>>>
>>> most people are unwilling to pay for those services also lol.<= br> >>>
>>> I don't see the paradigm of discreet routers/nat per prem = anytime
>>> soon.=C2=A0 If you subtract that piece of it then we're ba= sically just
>>> talking XGSPON or similar.
_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


--
Bruce Perens K6BP
--00000000000089efd405f6e49edb--