Re: [Starlink] It's still the starlink latency...

[Bruce Perens <bruce@perens.com>]

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Please help to explain. Here's a draft to start with:

*Starlink Performance Not Sufficient for Military Applications, Say
Scientists*

The problem is not availability: Starlink works where nothing but another
satellite network would. It's not bandwidth, although others have questions
about sustaining bandwidth as the customer base grows. It's *latency*
and *jitter.
A*s load increases, latency, the time it takes for a packet to get through,
increases more than it should. The scientists who have fought
*bufferbloat, *a major cause of latency on the internet, know why. SpaceX
needs to upgrade their system to use the scientist's Open Source
modifications to Linux to fight bufferbloat, and thus reduce latency. This
is mostly just using a newer version, but there are some tunable
parameters. Jitter is a *change* in the speed of getting a packet through
the network during a connection, which is inevitable in satellite networks,
but will be improved by making use of the bufferbloat-fighting software,
and probably with the addition of more satellites.

*We've done all of the work, SpaceX just needs to adopt it by upgrading
their software, *said scientist Dave Taht. Jim Gettys, Taht's collaborator
and creator of the X Window System, chimed in: <fill in here please>
Open Source luminary Bruce Perens said: *sometimes Starlink's latency and
jitter make it inadequate to remote-control my ham radio station. But the
military is experimenting with remote-control of vehicles on the
battlefield and other applications that can be demonstrated, but won't
happen at scale without adoption of bufferbloat-fighting strategies.*

On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 12:59 PM Eugene Chang <eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu>
wrote:

> The key issue is most people don’t understand why latency matters. They
> don’t see it or feel it’s impact.
>
> First, we have to help people see the symptoms of latency and how it
> impacts something they care about.
> - gamers care but most people may think it is frivolous.
> - musicians care but that is mostly for a hobby.
> - business should care because of productivity but they don’t know how to
> “see” the impact.
>
> Second, there needs to be a “OMG, I have been seeing the action of latency
> all this time and never knew it! I was being shafted.” Once you have this
> awakening, you can get all the press you want for free.
>
> Most of the time when business apps are developed, “we” hide the impact of
> poor performance (aka latency) or they hide from the discussion because the
> developers don’t have a way to fix the latency. Maybe businesses don’t care
> because any employees affected are just considered poor performers. (In bad
> economic times, the poor performers are just laid off.) For employees, if
> they happen to be at a location with bad latency, they don’t know that
> latency is hurting them. Unfair but most people don’t know the issue is
> latency.
>
> Talking and explaining why latency is bad is not as effective as showing
> why latency is bad. Showing has to be with something that has a person
> impact.
>
> Gene
> -----------------------------------
> Eugene Chang
> eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu
> +1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu)
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 26, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Bruce Perens via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
> If you want to get attention, you can get it for free. I can place
> articles with various press if there is something interesting to say. Did
> this all through the evangelism of Open Source. All we need to do is write,
> sign, and publish a statement. What they actually write is less relevant if
> they publish a link to our statement.
>
> Right now I am concerned that the Starlink latency and jitter is going to
> be a problem even for remote controlling my ham station. The US Military is
> interested in doing much more, which they have demonstrated, but I don't
> see happening *at scale *without some technical work on the network.
> Being able to say this isn't ready for the government's application would
> be an attention-getter.
>
>     Thanks
>
>     Bruce
>
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 9:21 AM Dave Taht via Starlink <
> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>
>> These days, if you want attention, you gotta buy it. A 50k half page
>> ad in the wapo or NYT riffing off of It's the latency, Stupid!",
>> signed by the kinds of luminaries we got for the fcc wifi fight, would
>> go a long way towards shifting the tide.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:29 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:20 AM Livingood, Jason
>> > <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote:
>> > >
>> > > The awareness & understanding of latency & impact on QoE is nearly
>> unknown among reporters. IMO maybe there should be some kind of background
>> briefings for reporters - maybe like a simple YouTube video explainer that
>> is short & high level & visual? Otherwise reporters will just continue to
>> focus on what they know...
>> >
>> > That's a great idea. I have visions of crashing the washington
>> > correspondents dinner, but perhaps
>> > there is some set of gatherings journalists regularly attend?
>> >
>> > >
>> > > On 9/21/22, 14:35, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht via Starlink" <
>> starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net on behalf of
>> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >     I still find it remarkable that reporters are still missing the
>> > >     meaning of the huge latencies for starlink, under load.
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > FQ World Domination pending:
>> https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
>> > Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> FQ World Domination pending:
>> https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
>> Dave Täht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
>> _______________________________________________
>> Starlink mailing list
>> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
>> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>>
>
>
> --
> Bruce Perens K6BP
> _______________________________________________
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> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net
> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
>
>
>

-- 
Bruce Perens K6BP

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