From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ej1-x636.google.com (mail-ej1-x636.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::636]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1B7A73B29E for ; Mon, 26 Sep 2022 16:05:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ej1-x636.google.com with SMTP id a26so16497983ejc.4 for ; Mon, 26 Sep 2022 13:05:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=perens.com; s=google; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=F1Q0HwdrkchZxxXZ0H6jkPh/Dto1W+AiJLP4itphh9c=; b=ZzIYxMEQb4EdeAoQaiY5w9Zo0Ei55gA/kQZ3ir6VQrJBIdMYTYyQ4wXUJ4dp3aSHU2 8A0wjjkRuFZkrkHdtugEYj0Z1BdBlRhvG9RjVaBglM4rO2ypEijGRh2anmUL7VOhDche 07Fwmic2At8GBfsI2M2D/G2es1fToO6Wqilss= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date; bh=F1Q0HwdrkchZxxXZ0H6jkPh/Dto1W+AiJLP4itphh9c=; b=6XdLetIupdILx33qPUtzgMYA3XbokVsFpix3YAKpLAstTrv3GFMDxiD3AVos2aGg3X GPg+MOK5gWW/z/wZEzh5/PK9NDbdWZ0nN2OmwXtE1peKeAarGN0U9L9hSenfghtbiZJb FRttyOyivoytvtdkc2iw4CtAQ+85Z/GY/CKXobK2rPT6YK8x9jG20z/ck6UKU4dlB/D2 Kxgd6aERR3y8+OFKB0Jn0NPbVy4eXictRqSbagFDMfDzvT4FTx4X366J9d49uaX7qLqJ 4DtucMfNYEZ3YSChDH21HrATkXUAogmkfq7SOUejK3Ts83YA0a1JuQ9BhuBmqpbXrM06 +v5Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ACrzQf0OOYBhcvFfNVc2oxLRdnbdTnYXnHi7ZpqMLiPYzJCtAyWOALU6 fAj+bXppF58g4puAxC8wR3nB2aFj6Qlggdi7TodPUw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMsMyM7ac1CGfRxU/d3X9EVO24Setzw5D87BvnLZ26TYXZObr/oMs7YHrc4PqmetU1+aZDFF49Skf6j5cN/SbSHqLWs= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:8a53:b0:781:6ee9:db96 with SMTP id gx19-20020a1709068a5300b007816ee9db96mr19185220ejc.301.1664222704925; Mon, 26 Sep 2022 13:05:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <060F7695-D48E-413C-9501-54ECC651ABEB@cable.comcast.com> <07C46DD5-7359-410E-8820-82B319944618@alum.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <07C46DD5-7359-410E-8820-82B319944618@alum.mit.edu> From: Bruce Perens Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2022 13:04:53 -0700 Message-ID: To: Eugene Chang Cc: Dave Taht , Dave Taht via Starlink Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000027972805e99a0b90" Subject: Re: [Starlink] It's still the starlink latency... X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2022 20:05:06 -0000 --00000000000027972805e99a0b90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Please help to explain. Here's a draft to start with: *Starlink Performance Not Sufficient for Military Applications, Say Scientists* The problem is not availability: Starlink works where nothing but another satellite network would. It's not bandwidth, although others have questions about sustaining bandwidth as the customer base grows. It's *latency* and *jitter. A*s load increases, latency, the time it takes for a packet to get through, increases more than it should. The scientists who have fought *bufferbloat, *a major cause of latency on the internet, know why. SpaceX needs to upgrade their system to use the scientist's Open Source modifications to Linux to fight bufferbloat, and thus reduce latency. This is mostly just using a newer version, but there are some tunable parameters. Jitter is a *change* in the speed of getting a packet through the network during a connection, which is inevitable in satellite networks, but will be improved by making use of the bufferbloat-fighting software, and probably with the addition of more satellites. *We've done all of the work, SpaceX just needs to adopt it by upgrading their software, *said scientist Dave Taht. Jim Gettys, Taht's collaborator and creator of the X Window System, chimed in: Open Source luminary Bruce Perens said: *sometimes Starlink's latency and jitter make it inadequate to remote-control my ham radio station. But the military is experimenting with remote-control of vehicles on the battlefield and other applications that can be demonstrated, but won't happen at scale without adoption of bufferbloat-fighting strategies.* On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 12:59 PM Eugene Chang wrote: > The key issue is most people don=E2=80=99t understand why latency matters= . They > don=E2=80=99t see it or feel it=E2=80=99s impact. > > First, we have to help people see the symptoms of latency and how it > impacts something they care about. > - gamers care but most people may think it is frivolous. > - musicians care but that is mostly for a hobby. > - business should care because of productivity but they don=E2=80=99t kno= w how to > =E2=80=9Csee=E2=80=9D the impact. > > Second, there needs to be a =E2=80=9COMG, I have been seeing the action o= f latency > all this time and never knew it! I was being shafted.=E2=80=9D Once you h= ave this > awakening, you can get all the press you want for free. > > Most of the time when business apps are developed, =E2=80=9Cwe=E2=80=9D h= ide the impact of > poor performance (aka latency) or they hide from the discussion because t= he > developers don=E2=80=99t have a way to fix the latency. Maybe businesses = don=E2=80=99t care > because any employees affected are just considered poor performers. (In b= ad > economic times, the poor performers are just laid off.) For employees, if > they happen to be at a location with bad latency, they don=E2=80=99t know= that > latency is hurting them. Unfair but most people don=E2=80=99t know the is= sue is > latency. > > Talking and explaining why latency is bad is not as effective as showing > why latency is bad. Showing has to be with something that has a person > impact. > > Gene > ----------------------------------- > Eugene Chang > eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu > +1-781-799-0233 (in Honolulu) > > > > > > On Sep 26, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Bruce Perens via Starlink < > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > > If you want to get attention, you can get it for free. I can place > articles with various press if there is something interesting to say. Did > this all through the evangelism of Open Source. All we need to do is writ= e, > sign, and publish a statement. What they actually write is less relevant = if > they publish a link to our statement. > > Right now I am concerned that the Starlink latency and jitter is going to > be a problem even for remote controlling my ham station. The US Military = is > interested in doing much more, which they have demonstrated, but I don't > see happening *at scale *without some technical work on the network. > Being able to say this isn't ready for the government's application would > be an attention-getter. > > Thanks > > Bruce > > On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 9:21 AM Dave Taht via Starlink < > starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: > >> These days, if you want attention, you gotta buy it. A 50k half page >> ad in the wapo or NYT riffing off of It's the latency, Stupid!", >> signed by the kinds of luminaries we got for the fcc wifi fight, would >> go a long way towards shifting the tide. >> >> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:29 AM Dave Taht wrote: >> > >> > On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:20 AM Livingood, Jason >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > The awareness & understanding of latency & impact on QoE is nearly >> unknown among reporters. IMO maybe there should be some kind of backgrou= nd >> briefings for reporters - maybe like a simple YouTube video explainer th= at >> is short & high level & visual? Otherwise reporters will just continue t= o >> focus on what they know... >> > >> > That's a great idea. I have visions of crashing the washington >> > correspondents dinner, but perhaps >> > there is some set of gatherings journalists regularly attend? >> > >> > > >> > > =EF=BB=BFOn 9/21/22, 14:35, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht via Sta= rlink" < >> starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net on behalf of >> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote: >> > > >> > > I still find it remarkable that reporters are still missing the >> > > meaning of the huge latencies for starlink, under load. >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > FQ World Domination pending: >> https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ >> > Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> >> >> >> -- >> FQ World Domination pending: >> https://blog.cerowrt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/ >> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> > > > -- > Bruce Perens K6BP > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > --=20 Bruce Perens K6BP --00000000000027972805e99a0b90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Please help to explain. Here's a draft to start with:<= div>
Starlink Performance Not Sufficient for Military Appl= ications, Say Scientists

The problem is not availabi= lity: Starlink works where nothing but another satellite network would. It&= #39;s not bandwidth, although others have questions about sustaining bandwi= dth as the customer base grows. It's latency and jitter. As load increases, latency, the time it takes for a packet to get through, = increases more than it should. The scientists who have fought=C2=A0buffe= rbloat,=C2=A0a major cause of latency on the internet, know why. SpaceX= needs to upgrade their system to use the scientist's Open Source modif= ications to Linux to fight bufferbloat, and thus reduce latency. This is mo= stly just using a newer version, but there are some tunable parameters. Jit= ter is a change in the speed of getting a packet through the network= during a connection, which is inevitable in satellite networks, but will b= e improved by making use of the bufferbloat-fighting software, and probably= with the addition of more satellites.

We'v= e done all of the work, SpaceX just needs to adopt it by upgrading their so= ftware, said scientist Dave Taht. Jim Gettys, Taht's collaborator a= nd creator of the X Window System, chimed in: <fill in here please>
Open Source luminary Bruce Perens said: sometimes Starlink'= s latency and jitter make it inadequate to remote-control my ham radio stat= ion. But the military is experimenting with remote-control of vehicles on t= he battlefield and other applications that can be demonstrated, but won'= ;t happen at scale without adoption of bufferbloat-fighting strategi= es.

On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 12:59 PM Eugene Chang <eugene.chang@alum.mit.edu> wr= ote:
The key issue is most people don=E2=80=99t = understand why latency matters. They don=E2=80=99t see it or feel it=E2=80= =99s impact.=C2=A0

First, we have to help people see the= symptoms of latency and how it impacts something they care about.
- gamers care but most people may think it is frivolous.
- musi= cians care but that is mostly for a hobby.
- business should care= because of productivity but they don=E2=80=99t know how to =E2=80=9Csee=E2= =80=9D the impact.

Second, there needs to be a =E2= =80=9COMG, I have been seeing the action of latency all this time and never= knew it! I was being shafted.=E2=80=9D Once you have this awakening, you c= an get all the press you want for free.

Most of th= e time when business apps are developed, =E2=80=9Cwe=E2=80=9D hide the impa= ct of poor performance (aka latency) or they hide from the discussion becau= se the developers don=E2=80=99t have a way to fix the latency. Maybe busine= sses don=E2=80=99t care because any employees affected are just considered = poor performers. (In bad economic times, the poor performers are just laid = off.) For employees, if they happen to be at a location with bad latency, t= hey don=E2=80=99t know that latency is hurting them. Unfair but most people= don=E2=80=99t know the issue is latency.=C2=A0

Ta= lking and explaining why latency is bad is not as effective as showing why = latency is bad. Showing has to be with something that has a person impact.= =C2=A0

Gene
-----------------------------------
E= ugene Chang
+1-781-799-0233= =C2=A0(in Honolulu)


=


=

On Sep 26, 2022, at 6:32 AM, Bruce = Perens via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

If you want to get attention, you can get it for free. I= can place articles with various press if there is something interesting to= say. Did this all through the evangelism of Open Source. All we need to do= is write, sign, and publish a statement. What they actually write is less = relevant if they publish a link to our statement.

Right = now I am concerned that the Starlink latency and jitter is going to be a pr= oblem even for remote controlling my ham station. The US Military is intere= sted in doing much more, which they have demonstrated, but I don't see = happening at scale without some technical work on the network. Being= able to say this isn't ready for the government's application woul= d be an attention-getter.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Thanks

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Bruce

On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 9:21= AM Dave Taht via Starlink <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
These days, if you wa= nt attention, you gotta buy it. A 50k half page
ad in the wapo or NYT riffing off of It's the latency, Stupid!", signed by the kinds of luminaries we got for the fcc wifi fight, would
go a long way towards shifting the tide.

On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:29 AM Dave Taht <dave.taht@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Mon, Sep 26, 2022 at 8:20 AM Livingood, Jason
> <J= ason_Livingood@comcast.com> wrote:
> >
> > The awareness & understanding of latency & impact on QoE = is nearly unknown among reporters. IMO maybe there should be some kind of b= ackground briefings for reporters - maybe like a simple YouTube video expla= iner that is short & high level & visual? Otherwise reporters will = just continue to focus on what they know...
>
> That's a great idea. I have visions of crashing the washington
> correspondents dinner, but perhaps
> there is some set of gatherings journalists regularly attend?
>
> >
> > =EF=BB=BFOn 9/21/22, 14:35, "Starlink on behalf of Dave Taht= via Starlink" <starlink-bounces@lists.bufferbloat.net on beha= lf of s= tarlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0I still find it remarkable that reporters are = still missing the
> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0meaning of the huge latencies for starlink, un= der load.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerow= rt.org/post/state_of_fq_codel/
> Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC



--
FQ World Domination pending: https://blog.cerowrt.or= g/post/state_of_fq_codel/
Dave T=C3=A4ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink


--
Bruce Perens K6BP
=
_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing listStarli= nk@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/s= tarlink

=

--
Bruce Perens K6BP
--00000000000027972805e99a0b90--