[Starlink] Re: Starlink looking less niche as its retail presence expands

["Luis A. Cornejo" <luis.a.cornejo@gmail.com>]

Since Starlink controls all the wireless parts of their system. Does
anybody here know what they could do to mitigate the limits of classical
wireless comms, like Shannon-Hartley Capacity
Theorem or the interference?

Wouldn’t approaches like P-Cell or Tarana’s where noise is cancelled or
nulled from the same frequencies to allow a substantial reuse of channels
in neighboring cells? I can only assume they are doing some of it, but not
to what extent.

I wonder if Dr. Reed can weigh in specially with something like Orbital
Angular Momentum advances or more cooperative Tx/Rx that he has mentioned
before? “Smarter” transceivers if you will.

https://deepplum.com/some-thoughts-on-orbital-angular-momentum-oam-for-future-radio/

-Luis

On Wed, Sep 17, 2025 at 6:02 PM Ulrich Speidel via Starlink <
starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:

> Worth looking a bit beyond the marketing, the gushing influencers, and
> the various bloggers.
>
> 99% of the folk who keep reporting on Starlink don't consider three
> aspects that are absolutely key:
>
>  1. What areas new connectivity is being sold to.
>  2. What the existing user density in these areas is.
>  3. How much data rate you need when push comes to shove.
>
> The simple fact is that Starlink uses Ku band spectrum for end user
> downlink. That spectrum is limited (as in "Hertz", or about 2 GHz, to be
> more specific, and further constrained by licensing issues in quite a
> few places). Support by existing hardwaree aside, going further down in
> frequency isn't really an option as there are existing services there.
> Going further up, and you'll increasingly find that weather makes life
> really difficult with consumer-sized antennas.
>
> So to squeeze the combined bit rates of all of your users through this
> spectrum, Starlink needs power. It needs that power in space, where the
> only way to generate it is with solar cells that are in the dark for
> half the orbit. Assuming for a moment that Starlink is able to produce
> enough power on its fleet for enough beams to point at enough cells, it
> also needs the ability to project that power to the receivers on the
> ground. This is where EPFD limits come in - there's an international
> agreed-upon legal limit on how much power satellites can project onto
> the ground, and with it's Gen 2 sats, Starlink is already right up
> against that limit.
>
> Let's recap: Spectrum's boxed in, and power is boxed in. That imposes a
> hard limit on total capacity (look up the Shannon-Hartley Capacity
> Theorem if you don't believe me). This capacity is all that Starlink has
> to share among its users in a cell. No matter how many satellites they
> launch or how big the rocket. Add more users in a cell, and the capacity
> per user there has to go down. Law of nature.
>
> But it's a little more constrained even: Enter wider area needs, beams,
> and enter competition. Even if a particular sub-band of the Ku band
> spectrum isn't in use in a cell for downlink at a given moment, it
> doesn't actually mean that it's available for use there. That's (a)
> because the beams that are currently pointing at the cell already reach
> the EPFD limit, (b) because a beam operating on that frequency might
> already be in use in a cell nearby downlinking to users there, and leak
> enough signal over into our target cell to ensure the sub-band can't be
> used there because it would interfere, (c) because you mightn't have a
> satellite with an available beam to service the cell (this is the ONLY
> problem more sats can fix) and (d) because the likes of Kuiper & Co.
> also need / want / are entitled to some of that Ku band spectrum. It's
> not like you can launch a new LEO system and simply set up shop in a
> completely different part of the spectrum.
>
> So what does this mean?
>
>  From a commercial perspective, Starlink wants to make money, of course.
> But that requires them to have something to sell.
>
> In truly rural areas with low user density, where Starlink has spare
> capacity in the spectrum, this is a no-brainer - there is something to
> sell, and new users fill gaps there without impacting on what's
> available to existing ones. In rural towns with a few ten thousand
> people per cell and poop fibre and mobile infrastructure, that capacity
> isn't a given - so just selling full-rate plans with Dishys there is
> moving the system towards capacity. In cities and suburbia, it's a mixed
> picture depending on the local infrastructure. Where there's strong
> competition from cheap fibre and people tend to live in apartments that
> can't see the sky, Starlink's a hard sell, but even there a marketing
> drive might net more users than the system can really support simply
> because the market in each cell there is large.
>
> There is plenty of indication that Starlink has been grappling with
> capacity for a while now. We saw them discover their heart for the
> "rural" NZ farmer a couple of years ago, including a lot of townsfolk in
> secondary cities here, whereas the lifestyle blocks around Auckland
> (where all the IT managers live beyond the reach of fibre) were
> mysteriously classified as "urban" and ineligible for the substantial
> rural discount on new Dishys. We've seen "sold out" signs go up on the
> availability map. We've seen minimum download rates drop in many areas.
> We've seen one-off congestion surcharges and now discounted lower
> capacity plans - smaller slices off the total capacity cake.
>
> This isn't trying to blame Starlink - it's a fantastic system - but like
> the rest of us have to live within what the spectrum and physics
> provide, and the better we as users understand where the limitations
> are, the better the decisions we can make for our own connectivity. And
> that might at times actually leave capacity for people who need it more
> than we do.
>
> On 18/09/2025 7:04 am, Inemesit Affia via Starlink wrote:
> > I expect if starship is successful and Amazon mounts a challenge, well
> see
> > the most expensive Starlink Residential  plan be around the US (wired)
> > average. I believe that's around $70
> >
> > On Wed, Sep 17, 2025, 7:46 PM Frantisek Borsik<
> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Starlink will become that 2nd or 3rd connectivity option for many, in
> the
> >> coming years - and Kuiper, presumably others, as well. Especially with
> the
> >> introduction of that standby $5 program. They might bring other tiers
> for
> >> something like that in the future.
> >>
> >> And for some, especially in the rural areas, it will be the one and only
> >> option (not crazy expensive and hard to get.)
> >>
> >> All the best,
> >>
> >> Frank
> >>
> >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> >>
> >>
> >> *In loving memory of Dave Täht: *1965-2025
> >>
> >> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/
> >>
> >>
> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> >>
> >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> >>
> >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> >>
> >> Skype: casioa5302ca
> >>
> >> frantisek.borsik@gmail.com
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Sep 17, 2025 at 8:21 PM Inemesit Affia via Starlink <
> >> starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Starlink is *advertised* as a rural product as opposed to relegated to
> >>> one.
> >>> It's available to be used everywhere just like tractors and cow milking
> >>> machines.
> >>>
> >>> In Africa, most users are urban. I'm willing to bet there are more
> >>> urban+suburban users in the USA and Australia.
> >>>
> >>> There are many pockets of unavailability and unreliability.
> >>>
> >>> I remember seeing a user in a new skyscraper. No mobile service there.
> >>>
> >>> The benefit for users having retail(including online) availability IMO
> is
> >>> getting hardware & replacements on short notice. Same day or next day.
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Sep 17, 2025, 5:55 PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> >>> Starlink
> >>> <starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> *Starlink has nearly a dozen retail partners in the US, including Best
> >>> Buy
> >>>> and Walmart, illustrating the company's desire to make the satellite
> >>>> service less of a niche, rural play. However, Starlink's subs still
> >>> skew to
> >>>> rural areas.*
> >>>> EXCERPT:
> >>>>
> >>>> The Starlink satellite broadband service remains largely relegated to
> >>> rural
> >>>> areas and does not yet represent a major, direct competitor to
> wireline
> >>>> broadband service providers and fixed wireless access (FWA) offerings
> in
> >>>> urban areas.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> But Starlink's expanding presence at retail sites – along with some
> >>> recent
> >>>> price cuts – indicates the company isn't content for the service to be
> >>>> limited as a niche offering.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Jeff Moore, principal of Wave7 Research and a watcher of marketing
> >>> trends
> >>>> across the mobile, satellite and broadband landscapes, discovered back
> >>> in
> >>>> March that Starlink was being sold broadly at Best Buy stores.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> "Since March, every single Best Buy that we have checked in every
> state
> >>> has
> >>>> had a highly visible display for Starlink," Moore said, adding that
> most
> >>>> tend to be "endcap" displays placed at the end of aisles.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> And Starlink has been broadening its retail footprint. Citing
> >>>> Starlink's evolving
> >>>> list of retail partners
> >>>> <
> >>>>
> >>>
> https://www.starlink.com/support/article/8a90222d-7c32-edd7-51f6-f696ece07105
> >>>>> ,
> >>>> Moore points out that the service is also being sold by a mix of
> big-box
> >>>> stores and smaller outlets, including Home Depot, Nebraska Furniture
> >>> Mart,
> >>>> West Marine, Bass Pro Shops, Cabela's, Microcom, Thor Industries,
> >>> Tractor
> >>>> Supply, Winegard Company and Walmart.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> But Starlink's retail presence is not exactly uniform. According to
> >>> Wave7's
> >>>> in-person checks, Walmart, for example, has Starlink displays at some
> >>>> stores but not in others.
> >>>>
> >>>> Moore also points out that Starlink's retail presence is not limited
> to
> >>>> rural areas. "We're not seeing it slice that way at all," he said.
> >>>>
> >>>> Moore said Home Depot is getting more aggressive with Starlink, even
> if
> >>> its
> >>>> displays are not exactly "glittering jewels of commercialism."
> >>>>
> >>>> "They're sort of non-descript displays. If you know what you're
> looking
> >>>> for, you can find it," he said.
> >>>>
> >>>> That said, Starlink is a "priority" for Home Depot this year and
> "sales
> >>>> have been strong," Moore said, citing information from what he says
> is a
> >>>> well-placed source familiar with the chain. However, the lion's share
> of
> >>>> those sales have been online rather than in-store, he added.
> >>>>
> >>>> So, what to make of Starlink's increased focus on retail? Moore thinks
> >>> it's
> >>>> a way for Starlink to gravitate away from being a "niche" product into
> >>> more
> >>>> of a mass-market product.
> >>>>
> >>>> Retail partnerships give Starlink another sales channel without having
> >>> to
> >>>> shell out millions to erect its own physical storefronts. However, the
> >>>> retail experience, particularly at big-box stores, can be lackluster.
> >>>>
> >>>> Roger Entner, founder and analyst at Recon Analytics, said his data
> >>> shows
> >>>> that satisfaction with the sales process at big-box retailers is
> >>> "abysmal,"
> >>>> driving negative net promoter scores (NPS). Meanwhile, most Starlink
> >>> sales
> >>>> occur online.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> *Who are Starlink's customers?*
> >>>> Starlink, which relies on a constellation of low-Earth orbit (LEO)
> >>>> satellites, reported in July that it has more than 2 million active
> >>>> customers in the US. By comparison, its geosynchronous (GEO) satellite
> >>>> broadband competitors – Hughes Network Systems and Viasat – are much
> >>>> smaller and losing subscribers.
> >>>>
> >>>> Hughes lost 34,000 subs in Q2 2025, ending with 819,000. Viasat's base
> >>> of
> >>>> fixed broadband subs has dipped to 172,000. Just this week, EchoStar
> >>> execs
> >>>> said Hughes Network Systems is pivoting to the enterprise market
> >>>> <
> >>>>
> >>>
> https://www.lightreading.com/satellite/echostar-execs-dish-on-company-s-forced-pivot-and-the-path-forward
> >>>> as the residential side of its satellite business remains in decline.
> >>>>
> >>>> "Hughes and Viasat are still running TV advertising. They're still a
> >>>> competitive and viable option but losing share pretty rapidly." Moore
> >>> said.
> >>>> Some Viasat and Hughes customers are defecting to Starlink, but most
> of
> >>>> Starlink's customers are leaving small rural telcos and cable
> operators
> >>> for
> >>>> the satellite operator, Entner said. Overall, more than 85% of
> >>> Starlink's
> >>>> customers come from rural areas, while the rest are suburban,
> according
> >>> to
> >>>> Recon Analytics data.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> *Service and equipment price cuts*...
> >>>>
> >>>> [...]
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> https://www.lightreading.com/satellite/starlink-looking-less-niche-as-its-retail-presence-expands
> >>>> --
> >>>> Geoff.Goodfellow@iconia.com
> >>>> living as The Truth is True
> >>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>
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>
> --
> ****************************************************************
> Dr. Ulrich Speidel
>
> School of Computer Science
>
> Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
>
> The University of Auckland
> u.speidel@auckland.ac.nz
> http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
> ****************************************************************
>
>
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