From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-ua1-x936.google.com (mail-ua1-x936.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::936]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED1443CB37 for ; Thu, 4 Nov 2021 21:05:29 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-ua1-x936.google.com with SMTP id b3so14353618uam.1 for ; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 18:05:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nathan.io; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2U6EQxGTixf+tpeQTCa+7eFnV5yesna8ZKf8KbDVOEU=; b=sqefkXRhvt2BxyerWzph9S6/9RdUKR/LccmQWxnsVtHhQ+Y72SlK/CB3zWHsxa/Dd3 htKMcGJfqXCcdAKbWUoeQr7/gwZ8a+swJ8BPQC9Jhmbn2aE+Qpqjs9+KoPWmn4mCeXLK S9KB3wz5I6sDciKik5F7hpXvnrTR3qS7bua4GRAPC6o0KihNm+RJGrKuWFArx8KvpZ03 y0ASpecREEHU8ZM6ufRWuv3bkhi8B/R/OrSCml2cigxlMhSMzg16iQWRSrc6R4tO0kPq bfgId4xzWdR/8LkIPsEDGVDcdapZ1++nVHRFjgZ3UmMOZxqLyxJZWV3NHEmf8Cd2E6tl vHEg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2U6EQxGTixf+tpeQTCa+7eFnV5yesna8ZKf8KbDVOEU=; b=G3kJDv5liQN8cbFt0UNtvLI7lXnr88mvF2wM+z6Yih4AwmVTMMYd4F/ZYtIL+twMkl aovuClzTF/jFN0fzOGW7VUWboSh3oJ2AgbCZuazHq7ienKTxJaMyHXUTPvi8SkXpy02H RNtWX6A+AWnbrSPwNR0gv/E43egxkh3h1rBQRzeMJOInU5q5nCZducuOgq1o/Bf8wihU 8JY1pkEntdHTo3uKpD4nWkI9SGuqNfj1iylnptdycufP4/wP3z6ZXoM80ok4zTE8VDT8 tJjVN2h5piYnJUwmowss3c7CT70mt57v5XBHMtUkyb8FlE+A6YTL0COMrMzrEsddTLsZ Jb8A== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532bWDr9clWLLuXNgSdNByC/czQ5Sdge29fYXEJ/g1xpLCLCdJdx Bra5v/AIZybpEZUKgQUKsE41IUY4C3Yt0SrfxYJsE8H7ba970Q== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwVuhPieEUWtcfvN4lvutS0bnxKgos7ewDmWR2NIIo8lpL73553Yq8DohboXk2WoybsisgJBkIqBnl7bAl9ghY= X-Received: by 2002:a67:ecd2:: with SMTP id i18mr8768589vsp.28.1636074327942; Thu, 04 Nov 2021 18:05:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <7907F9D1-9511-4254-BD8F-701888EB6778@onholyground.com> <4ea38008-0e62-1cad-165a-a8aad232ebd6@cs.auckland.ac.nz> In-Reply-To: <4ea38008-0e62-1cad-165a-a8aad232ebd6@cs.auckland.ac.nz> From: Nathan Owens Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2021 18:05:17 -0700 Message-ID: To: Ulrich Speidel Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000024bd1c05d0003d9c" Subject: Re: [Starlink] Starlink tidbits from NANOG X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Nov 2021 01:05:30 -0000 --00000000000024bd1c05d0003d9c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > They are using waves back to regional DCs now, but will be moving to > dark fiber over the next year or two If that means "radio" waves, then this goes a long way to explaining why there's already limited capacity even near the US-Canada border. Waves in this case generally refers to 10G/100G leased optical circuit capacity. On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 5:35 PM Ulrich Speidel wrote: > Thanks for that Darrell - that's really interesting! A few comments on > that front: > > On 5/11/2021 4:26 am, Darrell Budic wrote: > > I was at NANOG in Minneapolis, and got a chance to ask a couple > > question of a Starlink Network Engineer who=E2=80=99s attending. I was = already > > talking to him about Starlink=E2=80=99s network efforts (see below) but= it was > > nice to meet in person. Don=E2=80=99t quote me on any of this, but here= =E2=80=99s a > > few tidbits this list may appreciate: > > > > - Starlink is expanding their own network operations, and is > > connecting to more IXPs. They were already on SIX in Seattle, have > > connected to DECIX NY, and are in the process of connecting to ChIX in > > Chicago. As I run ChIX, I had a good excuse to talk to them about > > other things. :) IXPs and their own networks are in the works for > > Europe and other areas as well. > Makes sense. > > - They have been obtaining more v4 addresses, but I don=E2=80=99t know = if they > > have enough to not do CGNAT. I don't think they do yet, but it seems > > like it may be a long term target. > > - v6 is deliberately not fully functional, but they know some of use > > are using it and it will eventually be fully activated. May be waiting > > on the regional connectivity, so will be intersting to see if changes > > for some areas and not others as they roll it out. > > So I guess we need to distinguish between: > > - IPv4 addresses for any CGNAT they might run > - IPv4 addresses as static addresses for (some of?) their customers > - IPv6 addresses as customer addresses > - IPv6 addresses to support geographic routing as discussed in earlier > posts (subnet maps to cell / satellite) > > There are quite a number of feasible configurations in this. E.g., they > could be running a CGNAT setup with a v4 pool on the Internet side, use > v6 to tunnel route from there to the satellite the end customer connects > to, and then map that customer back to a (private) IPv4 address in a NAT > on the satellite. One aspect that hasn't really been mentioned much here > is that of PDU size on the link between end customer and satellite. > Keeping Dishy and its successors small and cheap creates an incentive to > operate at marginal SNR, and this favours smaller PDUs over larger ones > as the probability of PDU checksum errors increases with PDU size. But > having lots of small PDUs means having lots of headers, and as IPv4 > addresses are leaner than IPv6 ones, this saves bandwidth here. Probably > not a biggie though. > > - New ground stations with more capacity are coming (and will be > > upgrades). > Any word on where? At the moment, most of the world can see Starlink > satellites, but most Starlink satellites can't see a ground station. > > They are using waves back to regional DCs now, but will be moving to > > dark fiber over the next year or two > If that means "radio" waves, then this goes a long way to explaining why > there's already limited capacity even near the US-Canada border. > > - the new satellites have more than 2 lasers, and there is enough > > capacity on them to do routing. no details on how or what protocols, al= as > Any word on when we can expect to see routing in action? > > - new birds also have 2-3x more ku bandwidth than first gen > Hm. Sounds cool, but with 3 billion or so underserved on the planet & > typical annual growth rates, that's still just a drop in the bucket. > > - new dishes are in the works, v4 coming with lower power use, more > > capacity, not round any more > Trayee? Squary? Just joking ;-) > > - larger dishes coming for commercial apps > That's good news, as this will allow Starlink to be used in places where > direct-to-site crashes into regulatory hurdles. If we can get the big > CDN providers to come up with small (virtual?) appliances that can be > put at the remote end of such links by local ISPs, then that'll also > help to preserve space segment capacity. > > -- > **************************************************************** > Dr. Ulrich Speidel > > School of Computer Science > > Room 303S.594 (City Campus) > Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282 > > The University of Auckland > ulrich@cs.auckland.ac.nz > http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/ > **************************************************************** > > > > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > --00000000000024bd1c05d0003d9c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> They = are using waves back to regional DCs now, but will be moving to=C2=A0
&g= t; dark fiber over the next year or two
If that means "r= adio" waves, then this goes a long way to explaining why=C2=A0<= br style=3D"color:rgb(212,212,213);font-family:-apple-system,HelveticaNeue;= word-spacing:1px">there's already limited capacity even near the U= S-Canada border.

Waves in this case generally refers to 10G/100G leased= optical circuit capacity.=C2=A0

On Thu, Nov 4, 2021 at 5:35 PM = Ulrich Speidel <ulrich@cs.au= ckland.ac.nz> wrote:
Thanks for that Darre= ll - that's really interesting! A few comments on
that front:

On 5/11/2021 4:26 am, Darrell Budic wrote:
> I was at NANOG in Minneapolis, and got a chance to ask a couple
> question of a Starlink Network Engineer who=E2=80=99s attending. I was= already
> talking to him about Starlink=E2=80=99s network efforts (see below) bu= t it was
> nice to meet in person. Don=E2=80=99t quote me on any of this, but her= e=E2=80=99s a
> few tidbits this list may appreciate:
>
> - Starlink is expanding their own network operations, and is
> connecting to more IXPs. They were already on SIX in Seattle, have > connected to DECIX NY, and are in the process of connecting to ChIX in=
> Chicago. As I run ChIX, I had a good excuse to talk to them about
> other things. :) IXPs and their own networks are in the works for
> Europe and other areas as well.
Makes sense.
> - They have been obtaining more v4 addresses, but I don=E2=80=99t know= if they
> have enough to not do CGNAT. I don't think they do yet, but it see= ms
> like it may be a long term target.
> - v6 is deliberately not fully functional, but they know some of use <= br> > are using it and it will eventually be fully activated. May be waiting=
> on the regional connectivity, so will be intersting to see if changes =
> for some areas and not others as they roll it out.

So I guess we need to distinguish between:

- IPv4 addresses for any CGNAT they might run
- IPv4 addresses as static addresses for (some of?) their customers
- IPv6 addresses as customer addresses
- IPv6 addresses to support geographic routing as discussed in earlier
posts (subnet maps to cell / satellite)

There are quite a number of feasible configurations in this. E.g., they could be running a CGNAT setup with a v4 pool on the Internet side, use v6 to tunnel route from there to the satellite the end customer connects to, and then map that customer back to a (private) IPv4 address in a NAT on the satellite. One aspect that hasn't really been mentioned much her= e
is that of PDU size on the link between end customer and satellite.
Keeping Dishy and its successors small and cheap creates an incentive to operate at marginal SNR, and this favours smaller PDUs over larger ones as the probability of PDU checksum errors increases with PDU size. But
having lots of small PDUs means having lots of headers, and as IPv4
addresses are leaner than IPv6 ones, this saves bandwidth here. Probably not a biggie though.
> - New ground stations with more capacity are coming (and will be
> upgrades).
Any word on where? At the moment, most of the world can see Starlink
satellites, but most Starlink satellites can't see a ground station. > They are using waves back to regional DCs now, but will be moving to <= br> > dark fiber over the next year or two
If that means "radio" waves, then this goes a long way to explain= ing why
there's already limited capacity even near the US-Canada border.
> - the new satellites have more than 2 lasers, and there is enough
> capacity on them to do routing. no details on how or what protocols, a= las
Any word on when we can expect to see routing in action?
> - new birds also have 2-3x more ku bandwidth than first gen
Hm. Sounds cool, but with 3 billion or so underserved on the planet & <= br> typical annual growth rates, that's still just a drop in the bucket. > - new dishes are in the works, v4 coming with lower power use, more > capacity, not round any more
Trayee? Squary? Just joking ;-)
> - larger dishes coming for commercial apps
That's good news, as this will allow Starlink to be used in places wher= e
direct-to-site crashes into regulatory hurdles. If we can get the big
CDN providers to come up with small (virtual?) appliances that can be
put at the remote end of such links by local ISPs, then that'll also help to preserve space segment capacity.

--
****************************************************************
Dr. Ulrich Speidel

School of Computer Science

Room 303S.594 (City Campus)
Ph: (+64-9)-373-7599 ext. 85282

The University of Auckland
ulrich@cs.auc= kland.ac.nz
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~ulrich/
****************************************************************



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