From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D84AD3B2A4 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 22:11:14 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id v3so10757234ioq.9 for ; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 19:11:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nathan.io; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=FPV36ndTP9btbQv+pgbGLRjXRuOAxNKDi/K0lHtDB7Q=; b=Jj/EOnIhW3iYbMik6p0HbSNDHnb8vZwlUhmxCPnvgbvZ61DfG4Dy2AntZbGoyDP4K0 NBx/BDtrBFk9F076dlDuF+8cOOCCkOigSlHKfKW6MiD1caRNz8mXTCGKrbuJBjGBW3KX N0ikZkUFOgfECFHeDw6lWCc5dcmvqIg01qBEOw8KsWnowr5HuAfzwvLZaCBbJnqT+MzB jy9Q9dn9uftIUy/yqp4cVOCmDR52jbQvA7vnaho7t8qpQZiroDwL0eIr6QOpis9fc7OL +lrT1AZ/MUGuxhcSVFhAIdM6IE4dRv2dJs7ZXtYX4BJaoWuZc7NYEccEUnamxNpgtm5i jkuQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=FPV36ndTP9btbQv+pgbGLRjXRuOAxNKDi/K0lHtDB7Q=; b=cixE43X8uCKt29BnuEhollcSVvqsRhBj9jU67Ex+EXrAE5h33Ip1lSB0CXxkFztFra ScXgUaSBpgXp37pMVi+eJFCGkOL/yOc2ZSRnBiZuuCeiBWsOJdJAQ3aB0pstGiQpIjsp SbIpbKgoPS2Citkp3GCNbOdaiatmq93+3EZVosG7Xpy8MyPu6E4lJjVv2tGw75FzQ/NB EdEqvR9+QzMQbEKK8G2JeQFkna1pJea1OU9lHWyHO0p+ttmlEvAI58Z68OX8tetJS/97 PGEAbOGRoX8DJmRNdX6Kmo2uqNedOixgqfmWVuph/EkZKR5HtlKLNdPxxGKQMGqUJ771 j4EQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531olaKBFp4MQ92ED8Wbu37mfkEG7skY3/ixOCENTq3AKyOAmVqK rGUV52XmKrX8tlbAuEx/etVtnyA4QRKOg0mtlliAag== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyGFhbaPFZx9F5jalLze7vJBkasvhE8KWiT6prsL7AZmV1uxY3I78JvVLLXuvUyBFXLCJS+IGbveley4gt52hI= X-Received: by 2002:a02:9f8a:: with SMTP id a10mr7444513jam.136.1624587074104; Thu, 24 Jun 2021 19:11:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4XxOdTE7SSKV1PSkdhm_Ng@geopod-ismtpd-3-0> In-Reply-To: From: Nathan Owens Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2021 19:11:03 -0700 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000075843405c58da73d" Subject: Re: [Starlink] ordered my dishy!! X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 02:11:15 -0000 --00000000000075843405c58da73d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cutting the data rate probably has implications on the transmit side, i imagine that may complicate things. Given it=E2=80=99s possible to make a long battery life short-burst-data ir= idium device, it certainly seems in the realm of possibility, but no phased array or high bandwidth there. The dish takes about 20-30min on first boot, that may have included a software update. If it=E2=80=99s not moved, reboots seem fairly quick, soft= ware update took it down for under 5min. The OS boot is probably not the slow part - I assume a lot of RF magic to find and track the sats. On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 8:04 PM Dave Taht wrote: > > > On Jun 24, 2021, at 6:36 PM, Nathan Owens wrote: > > *pre-ordered (so much confusion about this on Reddit) > > The newer dish model pulls closer to 65-70W, fwiw. > > > One of the things we worked on in the make-wifi-fast project was combined > power and rate control. > > My guess is that if all you want is 2Mbit service you can cut the power > requirements enormously. > > Might pull more in snow melt mode > > > One of my unanswered questions is how long does it take to power up and > start transferring data? > > I=E2=80=99ve worked on linux fast boot (sub second boot times) - in the p= ast. Most > seem to have forgotten how to do that (sigh) and have boot times measured > in minutes. One reason why I like openwrt so much is it boots in seconds = - > totally bound by the pathetically slow NAND or NOR chips other people > insist on using still. With some work you can also get rid of the friggin > bootloader, also. > > My initial model for the marine market and for one of my clients is very > different from how most use the internet today as an always on service. > > In this case I just need to get on a couple times a day, download my > email, grab a few new music files, get the weather report, and get off. S= o > I really don=E2=80=99t need all that much power for very long, except to = surf the > web briefly and make a ton of videoconference calls. An hour or two a day= , > tops. > > I=E2=80=99ve written a lot about =E2=80=9Cdesigning for the disconnect=E2= =80=9D in the past 4 > decades and I really kind of hate the idea of the internet being an > always-on drug. Here=E2=80=99s one old talk I gave in australia quite som= e time > back about it. > > http://the-edge.blogspot.com/2019/12/designing-for-disconnect.html > > > There=E2=80=99s another always-on marine sub-project we=E2=80=99re on, th= ough, that I > *long* to talk about but can=E2=80=99t, unless somehow we can get the sta= rlink folk > to do an apollo 13 and fix their !@#!! bufferbloat with something like > cake, or we can figure out how to optimize dynamically for it via another > router hanging off of the dishy. > > tidbit - one time recently I was 10 miles out at sea, in a 25 knot gale > and 15+ seas trying to write something down important, and I hit the wron= g > key and the !@#!@@ new apple M1 laptop asked me: > > =E2=80=9Cdo you want to install siri=E2=80=9D > > "No, damn it, I just want to write stuff. If there=E2=80=99s no friggin i= nternet > why on earth do I want to use siri?=E2=80=9D > > (apologies I=E2=80=99m grumpy today) > > > =E2=80=94Nathan > > > On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 7:01 PM Dave Taht wrote: > >> I ordered my dishy today. It looks like a couple months or more before I >> can get one=E2=80=A6 :( >> >> I have all sorts of cool stuff for rock steady movement compensation and >> so forth on my sailboat here. I hope, that at least at anchor in pillar >> point harbor or nearby, that it will =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D. It=E2= =80=99s been a useful place >> to debug and improve LTE and 5G behaviors for the past couple years. >> >> When starlink gets movement truly mastered it will be *awesome*. >> >> My LTE up on the mast is pretty amazing (I get 5+ miles and pretty good >> behavior from the cake instance and monitoring tools there) but there ar= e >> many spots along the california coast (and obviously further out) that a= re >> dead zones. >> >> The 100+W power requirements are going to hurt though! I just ordered >> another solar panel and some hefty lithium batteries. >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> *From: *"Starlink" >> *Subject: **Starlink Order Confirmed* >> *Date: *June 24, 2021 at 5:44:17 PM PDT >> *To: *davet@teklibre.net >> >> [image: Starlink Logo] >> >> Order Confirmed >> Order Number: >> *ORD-972149-36038-99* >> Service Address: >> *80 Cabrillo Hwy N, Half Moon Bay, CA 94019, USA >> * >> Shipping Address: >> *80 CABRILLO HWY N STE Q >> , >> PMB 404, HALF MOON BAY, CA, 94019-1650, US* >> >> Starlink is targeting coverage in your area in mid to late 2021. Orders >> will be fulfilled on a first-come, first-served basis. You will be notif= ied >> via email prior to shipment, and you will be charged the remainder of yo= ur >> balance 3 days after you receive your order notification email. >> >> Your Starlink Kit will arrive with your Starlink, wifi router, power >> supply, cables and mounting tripod. For more information or to cancel yo= ur >> order, sign in to your account. >> SIGN IN TO MY ACCOUNT >> >> >> Space Exploration Technologies Corp | 1 Rocket Road, Hawthorne, CA 90250 >> >> >> Questions? See Starlink FAQs >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> > > --00000000000075843405c58da73d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Cutting the data rate probably has implications on the tr= ansmit side, i imagine that may complicate things.
<= br>
Given it=E2=80=99s possible to make a long batte= ry life short-burst-data iridium device, it certainly seems in the realm of= possibility, but no phased array or high bandwidth there.


The dish tak= es about 20-30min on first boot, that may have included a software update. = If it=E2=80=99s not moved, reboots seem fairly quick, software update took = it down for under 5min. The OS boot is probably not the slow part - I assum= e a lot of RF magic to find and track the sats.=C2=A0

On Thu, Jun 24, 2= 021 at 8:04 PM Dave Taht <davet@te= klibre.net> wrote:


On Jun 24, 2021, at 6:36 PM, Nathan Owens <nathan@nathan.io> wrote:
<= br>
*pre-ordered (so much confusion about this o= n Reddit)

The newer dish= model pulls closer to 65-70W, fwiw.
One of the things we worked on in the make-wifi-fast project was com= bined power and rate control.=C2=A0

My guess is th= at if all you want is 2Mbit service you can cut the power requirements enor= mously.

Might pull more in snow melt mode

=
One of my unanswered questions is how long does it take to power up a= nd start transferring data?

I=E2=80=99ve worked on= linux fast boot (sub second boot times) - in the past. Most seem to have f= orgotten how to do that (sigh) and have boot times measured in minutes. One= reason why I like openwrt so much is it boots in seconds - totally bound b= y the pathetically slow NAND or NOR chips other people insist on using stil= l. With some work you can also get rid of the friggin bootloader, also.

My initial model for the marine market and for one of= my clients is very different from how most use the internet today as an al= ways on service.

In this case I just need to get o= n a couple times a day, download my email, grab a few new music files, get = the weather report, and get off. So I really don=E2=80=99t need all that mu= ch power for very long, except to surf the web briefly and make a ton of vi= deoconference calls. An hour or two a day, tops.

I= =E2=80=99ve written a lot about =E2=80=9Cdesigning for the disconnect=E2=80= =9D in the past 4 decades and I really kind of hate the idea of the interne= t being an always-on drug. Here=E2=80=99s one old talk I gave in australia = quite some time back about it.

http://the-edge.blogspot.com/2019/12/designing-for-disconnect.html


There=E2=80=99s another always-on ma= rine sub-project we=E2=80=99re on, though, that I *long* to talk about but = can=E2=80=99t, unless somehow we can get the starlink folk to do an apollo = 13 and fix their !@#!! bufferbloat with something like cake, or we can figu= re out how to optimize dynamically for it via another router hanging off of= the dishy.=C2=A0

tidbit - one time recently I was= 10 miles out at sea, in a 25 knot gale and 15+ seas trying to write someth= ing down important, and I hit the wrong key and the !@#!@@ new apple M1 lap= top =C2=A0asked me:

=E2=80=9Cdo you want to instal= l siri=E2=80=9D

"No, damn it, I just want to = write stuff. If there=E2=80=99s no friggin internet why on earth do I want = to use siri?=E2=80=9D

(apologies I=E2=80=99m grump= y today)


=E2=80=94Nathan


On Thu, Jun 24, 2021 at 7:01 PM Dave Taht <davet@teklibre.net> wrote:
=
I ordered my dishy today. It looks like a couple months or mor= e before I can get one=E2=80=A6 :(

I have all sorts of c= ool stuff for rock steady movement compensation and so forth on my sailboat= here. I hope, that at least at anchor in pillar point harbor or nearby, th= at it will =E2=80=9Cjust work=E2=80=9D.=C2=A0 It=E2=80=99s been a useful pl= ace to debug and improve LTE and 5G behaviors for the past couple years.=C2= =A0

When starlink gets movement truly mastered it = will be *awesome*.=C2=A0

My LTE up on the mast is = pretty amazing (I get 5+ miles and pretty good behavior from the cake insta= nce and monitoring tools there) but there are many spots along the californ= ia coast (and obviously further out) that are dead zones.=C2=A0
<= br>
The 100+W power requirements are going to hurt though! I just= ordered another solar panel and some hefty lithium batteries.=C2=A0

Begin forwarded message:

From: "Starlink" <no-reply@starlink.com&g= t;
Subject: Starli= nk Order Confirmed
Date: June 24,= 2021 at 5:44:17 PM PDT

<= tr style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
3D"Starlink

Order Confirme= d

3D""
<= tr style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">
Order Number:
<= strong style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">ORD-972149-36038-99=
Service Address:
80 Cabrillo Hwy N, Half Moon Bay, CA 94019, USA
Shipping Address:
<= /td>
80 CABRILLO HWY N STE Q, PMB 404, HALF MOON BAY, CA, 94019-= 1650, US
=

<= div style=3D"font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:14px;text-ali= gn:center">Starlink is targeting coverage in your area in mid to late 2021. O= rders will be fulfilled on a first-come, first-served basis. You will be = notified via email prior to shipment, and you will be charged the remainder= of your balance 3 days after you receive your order notification email.

Your Starlink Kit will arrive with your Starlink, wifi= router, power supply, cables and mounting tripod. For more information or = to cancel your order, sign in to your account.
<= a href=3D"https://auth.starlink.com/set-password?code=3D0e9b9715-febd-4078-= a1d6-80b5090ca182" style=3D"text-decoration:none;border:0px solid rgb(0,0,0= );border-top-left-radius:0px;border-top-right-radius:0px;border-bottom-righ= t-radius:0px;border-bottom-left-radius:0px;display:inline-block;font-size:1= 2px;font-weight:bold;letter-spacing:0px;line-height:normal;padding:20px 25p= x;text-align:center;font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;background-color= :rgb(0,0,0);color:rgb(255,255,255)" target=3D"_blank">SIGN IN TO MY ACCOUNT=
Space Exploration Te= chnologies Corp | 1 Rocket Road, Hawthorne, CA 90250=C2=A0
3D""

_______________________= ________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink

--00000000000075843405c58da73d--