From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from mail-il1-x12b.google.com (mail-il1-x12b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::12b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by lists.bufferbloat.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A81A3B29E for ; Wed, 9 Jun 2021 08:09:23 -0400 (EDT) Received: by mail-il1-x12b.google.com with SMTP id t6so18307150iln.8 for ; Wed, 09 Jun 2021 05:09:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nathan.io; s=google; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=YIkwIiYQsaotCbUiG6ZRCAajSwXLX/+2nhRc9ZJE3ZI=; b=rIOQ8vTfUaz1FZyZNS2VJqrLwOBc3xyQ2HrbE0f3e4cJAvm6amYnmEDr45UHokVy8h LhF/TUmco9/U6veKOy0m9Qm5a8rulWa6OYeUIlZx/hCtEu4y6GRR9RsnG+622Q6+MdXE A6o9OKBh87bT7VVP1y4kQv4l/37GIlzqioF6Sx4NDYPTUqKaE34Ku+MsDYRL125d1nAo gO7EQISLBrp6yVpTeT9abtzJXyi6TgArmysZ8cJJCi8LTO1nMka0PlGaERRmoCB5EHBG W9NIttPdMBdsYM3+bhyBdrKQEX7srz+L6+amgPbpkOOJf1TUq2htEeKw410cfkF4U3Ug sFTg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=YIkwIiYQsaotCbUiG6ZRCAajSwXLX/+2nhRc9ZJE3ZI=; b=m4MxIKOZkDGNqsH23deuZvCMr2HqJ3i7+p89aHWW4U1Bzwgrb9pziZ71lDDuQre5f5 OBH8upo0/bvs0IGexHq4YeAcR01yi3HzLWyEsG0jKu5HKUeb7YqOsyNQaqi+8qhggWPe nUfrVVUe8n/1UJmtWgV4Q7ZMSFlD26M81LUazY22oZ+YXX50yeR+Lwy/OBKTGE02aoAy ZANa6SRLqbCMjIw9IuGIUlHqGVeFxxzP2u86KoqJdm4VE/5OQe3ZWT0mMNELumKRBGty ntu22DhpBb0yTbIsA3/DX3geN9zmAe8RNJ+QD/FLKlC/o7uviHyrU1heoO0Io5HmS/JJ zXGg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531uOikODC9oB2YHQckzph8mbOmmU7bWbV9hohlZd2u/BBIAdVNN aCkbmW6a1GV9uo99WQabmWcL1zcx/BEC4DDuM3rrKqYFlgCDsQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzo1esgUJGoPPd5xVh+rLihXftUbSDy1qQFM/3DqrlIeET8yJjORt03BsZjxopDnU/wrIrh3jsRPSVYVweNfT0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6e02:c6b:: with SMTP id f11mr18309611ilj.140.1623240562035; Wed, 09 Jun 2021 05:09:22 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Nathan Owens Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 05:09:11 -0700 Message-ID: To: Dave Taht Cc: Darrell Budic , starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="00000000000015e62805c4542556" Subject: Re: [Starlink] dynamically adjusting cake to starlink X-BeenThere: starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: "Starlink has bufferbloat. Bad." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2021 12:09:23 -0000 --00000000000015e62805c4542556 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This one=E2=80=99s probably not a Mike question since the site doesn=E2=80= =99t pull anything from dishy. The dish represents all of its stats via gRPC - there are several clients available. I can probably code this up next week if someone doesn=E2=80=99t beat me to it. =E2=80=94Nathan On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 2:12 AM Dave Taht wrote: > Dear Mike: > > The biggest thing we need is something that can pull the right stats off > the dishy and dynamically adjust cake (on outbound at least) to have the > right amount of buffering for the available bandwidth, so as to make for > better statistical multiplexing (FQ) and active queue management (AQM) > > It=E2=80=99s pretty simple: in mangled shell script syntax: > > while up, down =3D getstats() > do > tc qdisc change dev eth0 root cake bandwidth $up > tc qdisc change dev ifb0 root cake bandwidth $down > done > > Which any router directly in front of the dishy can do (which is what > we=E2=80=99ve been doing) > > But whatever magic =E2=80=9Cgetstats()=E2=80=9D would need to do is uncle= ar from the stats > we get out of it, and a better alternative would be for the dishy itself > and their headends to be doing this with =E2=80=9CBQL" backpressure. > > As for the huge reductions of latency and jitter under working load, and = a > vast improvement in QoE - for what we=E2=80=99ve been able to achieve thu= s far, see > appendix A here: > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rVGC-iNq2NZ0jk4f3IAiVUHz2S9O6P-F3vVZU= 2yBYtw/edit?usp=3Dsharing > > We=E2=80=99ve got plenty more data > on uploads and downloads and other forms of traffic (starlink is > optimizing for ping, only, over ipv6. Sigh)=E2=80=A6 > > =E2=80=A6 and a meeting with some starlink execs at 11AM today. > > I=E2=80=99m pretty sure at this point we will be able to make a massive > improvement in starlink=E2=80=99s network design very quickly, after that= meeting. > > On Jun 8, 2021, at 2:54 PM, Nathan Owens wrote: > > I invited Mike, the creator of the site (starlink.sx) to join the list - > he=E2=80=99s put a crazy amount of work in to figure out which sats are a= ctive > (with advice from Jonathan McDowell), programming GSO exclusion bands, et= c. > His dayjob is in the ISP business. > > On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 8:31 PM Darrell Budic > wrote: > >> https://starlink.sx if you have=E2=80=99t seen it yet. You can locate yo= urself, >> and it will make some educated guesses about which satellite to which >> ground station you=E2=80=99re using. Interesting to see the birds change= and the >> links move between ground stations, lots going on to make these things w= ork. >> _______________________________________________ >> Starlink mailing list >> Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net >> https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink >> > _______________________________________________ > Starlink mailing list > Starlink@lists.bufferbloat.net > https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink > > > --00000000000015e62805c4542556 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This one=E2=80=99s probably not a Mike question since the= site doesn=E2=80=99t pull anything from dishy. The dish represents all of = its stats via gRPC - there are several clients available. I can probably co= de this up next week if someone doesn=E2=80=99t beat me to it.

=E2=80=94Nathan=C2=A0

=
On Wed, Ju= n 9, 2021 at 2:12 AM Dave Taht <da= vet@teklibre.net> wrote:
Dear Mike:

The biggest thing we need is something that can pull the right stats off= the dishy and dynamically adjust cake (on outbound at least) to have the r= ight amount of buffering for the available bandwidth, so as to make for bet= ter statistical multiplexing (FQ) and active queue management (AQM)
It=E2=80=99s pretty simple: in mangled shell script syntax:

while up, down =3D getstats()
do
= tc qdisc change dev eth0 root cake bandwidth $up
tc qdisc change = dev ifb0 root cake bandwidth $down
done
=C2=A0
Which any router directly in front of the dishy can do (which is what we= =E2=80=99ve been doing)

But whatever magic =E2=80= =9Cgetstats()=E2=80=9D would need to do is unclear from the stats we get ou= t of it, and a better alternative would be for the dishy itself and their h= eadends to be doing this with =E2=80=9CBQL" backpressure.
As for the huge reductions of latency and jitter under working= load, and a vast improvement in QoE - for what we=E2=80=99ve been able to = achieve thus far, see appendix A here:

https://docs.google.com/document= /d/1rVGC-iNq2NZ0jk4f3IAiVUHz2S9O6P-F3vVZU2yBYtw/edit?usp=3Dsharing

We=E2=80=99ve got plenty more data=C2=A0
on = uploads and downloads and other forms of traffic (starlink is optimizing fo= r ping, only, over ipv6. Sigh)=E2=80=A6

=E2=80=A6 = and a meeting with some starlink execs at 11AM today.=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99m pretty sure at this point we will be able to make a mas= sive improvement in starlink=E2=80=99s network design very quickly, after t= hat meeting.=C2=A0

On Jun 8, 202= 1, at 2:54 PM, Nathan Owens <nathan@nathan.io> wrote:

=
I invited Mike, the creator of the site (starlink.sx) to join the list - he=E2= =80=99s put a crazy amount of work in to figure out which sats are active (= with advice from Jonathan McDowell), programming GSO exclusion bands, etc. = His dayjob is in the ISP business.

On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 8:= 31 PM Darrell Budic <budic@onholyground.com> wrote:
=
https://starlink.sx= =C2=A0if you have=E2=80=99t seen it yet. You can locate yourself, and i= t will make some educated guesses about which satellite to which ground sta= tion you=E2=80=99re using. Interesting to see the birds change and the link= s move between ground stations, lots going on to make these things work._______________________________________________
Starlink mailing list
Starlin= k@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/starlink
_______________________________________________
Starlink mailing listStarli= nk@lists.bufferbloat.net
https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/s= tarlink

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